Author Topic: Smaller Mainsail on BR20  (Read 18747 times)

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Colin Lawson

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Re: Smaller Mainsail on BR20
« Reply #15 on: 27 Aug 2012, 21:34 »
Just to add to the debate,

I prefer to sail with a mainsail however, and have had great success in reefing using the low-tech method of attaching a dedicated reefing line to the reef fixing on the yard which on full sail deployment is carried up the yard. In order to reef the main halyard is slacked away until the reef point is reached and is made fast on the same main halyard cleat.
 

Hi Steve, sounds interesting but I cannot quite picture your arrangement  of dedicated reefing line could you have a go at explaining it for dummies. Thanks in advance.

Colin
Colin 
BR20 'Spray' based Mylor, Falmouth

steve jones

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Re: Smaller Mainsail on BR20
« Reply #16 on: 01 Sep 2012, 16:50 »
Hello Colin,

I have just found your post, so sorry for the delay. If it gets through I have added a scribble , can do something better if required.

All the best

Steve

BR17  Nona Me

Llafurio

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Re: Smaller Mainsail on BR20
« Reply #17 on: 02 Sep 2012, 20:32 »
Steve,
very clever solution, many thanks for sharing. C.
Ex various Drascombes, ex SeaRaider (WE) #1 "Craic", ex BR20 (GRE) "Llafurio", ex BR20 (GRP) "Tipsy", currently BRE (modified for open sea passages) "Homer", Drascombe Drifter "27" and Drascombe Drifter No. 31 "Amity". Homeport: Rossdohan

Matt Newland

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Re: Smaller Mainsail on BR20
« Reply #18 on: 07 Sep 2012, 23:02 »
Dear All,
Sorry about the lack of response. It might be worth sending me a quick email if there is something on the forum you want me to comment on. I dont get time to check here as often as I would like.

I think the idea of a smaller mainsail has merit for certain users. The increased weather helm is cause by high heel angles when sailing in a relatively fat, planing type hull. I am worried that if we move the mast forward 2 inches, we might end up with lee helm in light weather. The usual answer of course is to reduce heeling, as all good dinghy sailors know, and on cruising boats this is easiest to achieve by reefing. Having a smaller sail has a lot of advantages for some users, as Claus has pointed out. I can see how this works very well for West coast of Ireland and single handed Atlantic coast anywhere else. Especially with regard to the shorter spars, which must be a real blessing in bad weather.

However,  I looking at the numbers, the BR20 is in fact pretty moderately canvassed. By comparison with a lot of other (for example Bolger in the US) designs she is hugely under canvassed but we were designing for cruising on the sea.
Of course we have the advantage of having water ballast, and if we take the case of tanks empty, you can see she could be a handful, with a sail area/displacement ratio of 26.8 (assuming 1 man on board). For comparison, a Hawk 20 has a sail area/displacement of about 23.4 and a Cape cutter 19, 22.07, both are good performers in their fields.
However, when we fill the tanks the ratio plummets to just 19.6.  That is not far off Drascombe territory (18.2). While these numbers cannot be directly connected with speed, or tenderness, they do give an indication of power to weight and given that the BR20 is not extreme in any way (no wacky hull shape) it shows she is pretty middle of the road in terms of sail area.

I would be happy to draw up a reduced sail based on the reefed mainsail if enough people are interested. Cost would be very approximately as follows:
Sail: 400 ish
Shorter CF topmast with jaws: 180
Shorter boom, in wood: 150
Extra string and fittings: 30
Total of 860 plus VAT.
All in GBP and subject to VAT if you are EU.

If only a few people are interested, or if on a budget, I could draw up a sailplan and they could either get quotes, or else cut down an old sail from something similar. This would be the most cost effective solution and I would be very happy to help. But only after the Southampton Boat Show (14th- 23rd Sept)!

One last comment. Primarily for the USA market we have developed what we call the USA rig, which consists of a Carbon one piece main mast and fully battened mainsail. The actual area is only a little more but it has pros and cons.
The advantages are first and foremost easy reefing. Just pay out the halyard by a pre marked amount, haul in on the tack and then the clew, job done. Also, lazy jacks work well on this rig so you can release the main halyard, the boom drops a few inches until they take up but the sail is constrained and does not fall in the cockpit. Last advantage is due to the stiff mast and battens, it doesnt matter how hard the wind blows, you wont ever get the leech to flutter.
Downside is extra cost, and the fact that you have to disconnect the mast pin and slide mast forward when lowered in order to trailer her, otherwise too much overhang aft. There is extra rigging time involved in sliding on the sail slides but this has to be weighed against conecting up the topmast jaws and the parrel beads on the lower luff of the gunter rigged boat. Horses for courses - it is popular in the US but possibly not so much here, where lots of people know and understand the gunter rig. Here is a photo of a BRUSA rigged BR20 sailing locally. We will have this boat at the show in a weeks time:

Colin Lawson

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Re: Smaller Mainsail on BR20
« Reply #19 on: 07 Sep 2012, 23:35 »

I have just found your post, so sorry for the delay. If it gets through I have added a scribble , can do something better if required.


Thanks Steve - useful idea - looks like a job for when my BR20 is back in the front garden. Trying to make the most of the late summer at the moment.
Colin 
BR20 'Spray' based Mylor, Falmouth

Llafurio

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Re: Smaller Mainsail on BR20
« Reply #20 on: 09 Sep 2012, 07:05 »
...
I can see how this works very well for West coast of Ireland and single handed Atlantic coast anywhere else.
Works worldwide. Wherever white horses are common.

However,  I looking at the numbers, the BR20 is in fact pretty moderately canvassed. By comparison with a lot of other (for example Bolger in the US) designs she is hugely under canvassed but we were designing for cruising on the sea.
Of course we have the advantage of having water ballast, and if we take the case of tanks empty, you can see she could be a handful, with a sail area/displacement ratio of 26.8 (assuming 1 man on board). For comparison, a Hawk 20 has a sail area/displacement of about 23.4 and a Cape cutter 19, 22.07, both are good performers in their fields.
However, when we fill the tanks the ratio plummets to just 19.6.  That is not far off Drascombe territory (18.2). ...

Nothing wrong with Drascombe territory as such, thousands of very happy owners, worldwide. I was one of them myself. Only problem with Drascombe sail area territory is how much leeway they generate from that, and how little propulsion to windward.
But then again, this whole sail area issue cannot not be judged by numbers and formulae, it must be experienced in practice. And I did that.
The big surprise was for me that -besides gaining easy handling- with the smaller mainsail the boat can be brought to proper and sustainable planing by a singlehander. I could not ever do that as a singlehander with the big mainsail up, because the massive weatherhelm always stopped me. And as an aside from my experience, one cannot plane the boat with full crew or full tank either, as the weatherhelm puts a brake on the ride when the wind is best.


I would be happy to draw up a reduced sail based on the reefed mainsail if enough people are interested. Cost would be very approximately as follows:
Sail: 400 ish
Shorter CF topmast with jaws: 180
Shorter boom, in wood: 150
Extra string and fittings: 30
Total of 860 plus VAT.

Total of 760 plus VAT, when I counted. And the shorter boom and topmast are childs play to DIY.

Still sounds too much money? It isn't. Because with this additional investment (you can keep the bigger mainsail for whenever, or can sell it) .. people can actually gain a lot more sailing time on the water, both more exciting and more comfortable. (I heard that quite a few BR sailors presently prefer to stay put in the harbour when white horses are showing -or announced- outside. These guys really miss the best the BR can offer, and if the present big mainsail and long spars are part of that reluctance then a smaller mainsail would bring back the confidence and fun.)   
And as for coastal sailors ordering a new BR, they could go straight for the smaller mainsail and spars, and actually save a bit on the purchase price. They could always upgrade to a bigger mainsail later.


One last comment. Primarily for the USA market we have developed what we call the USA rig, which consists of a Carbon one piece main mast and fully battened mainsail.
I'll never understand how things can be so different over there. Cannot be wind and water alone. Maybe it's the people.   :-\
Ex various Drascombes, ex SeaRaider (WE) #1 "Craic", ex BR20 (GRE) "Llafurio", ex BR20 (GRP) "Tipsy", currently BRE (modified for open sea passages) "Homer", Drascombe Drifter "27" and Drascombe Drifter No. 31 "Amity". Homeport: Rossdohan

Clem Freeman

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Re: Smaller Mainsail on BR20
« Reply #21 on: 09 Sep 2012, 09:28 »
Anyone know the sail area displacement ratio for a Storm 17?

detroit_rock_city

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Re: Smaller Mainsail on BR20
« Reply #22 on: 11 Sep 2012, 00:53 »
 [/quote]
I'll never understand how things can be so different over there. Cannot be wind and water alone. Maybe it's the people.   :-\
[/quote]

Oh, its very different.  Things must be very special for us... Sailing on Lake Huron here.  about 3 knots of wind - still moved along nicely.  The next day we had 40 knots and 12 ft waves.  A little scarry at first, but the BayRaider handled it quite well - reefed and ballast full of course.

Llafurio

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Re: Smaller Mainsail on BR20
« Reply #23 on: 11 Sep 2012, 15:27 »

>>I'll never understand how things can be so different over there. Cannot be wind and water alone. Maybe it's the people.   :-\ <<

Oh, its very different.  Things must be very special for us... Sailing on Lake Huron here.  about 3 knots of wind - still moved along nicely.  The next day we had 40 knots and 12 ft waves. ...

So apparently it's not the wind and water that are much different from over here.
Ex various Drascombes, ex SeaRaider (WE) #1 "Craic", ex BR20 (GRE) "Llafurio", ex BR20 (GRP) "Tipsy", currently BRE (modified for open sea passages) "Homer", Drascombe Drifter "27" and Drascombe Drifter No. 31 "Amity". Homeport: Rossdohan

Michael Rogers

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Re: Smaller Mainsail on BR20
« Reply #24 on: 12 Sep 2012, 13:39 »
I can't resist (yes. it's that nutter again), especially as the BRUSA rig Matt describes has some (but by no means all) of the advantages any of you would get from JUNK RIG!! Robin Blain (Sunbird Marine and Junk Rig Association) would be happy to advise - he's no-end chuffed with his JR BC20.

Loss of performance? - don't you believe it. Look at the stuff Slieve McGalliard has posted on the JRA website, and follow (if in a position to do so) his exploits with his boat Poppy (sails in the Solent area), which
will win the Cowes Round-The-Island race sooner or later.

Primarily, however, IMHO JR is (or should be) a no-brainer for those who cruise rather than race.

Michael

Tony

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Re: Smaller Mainsail on BR20
« Reply #25 on: 13 Sep 2012, 16:31 »
A bit off the topic I’m afraid as far as reduced mains on the BR 20 is concerned  - but what the heck....
I’m tending to agree with Michael on the subject of fully battened lug sails. (OK, Junk Rig if you must!)  Why this fixation with highly engineered  Bermudian sail types?  The assumption that it is the most efficient is just plain wrong.  Wind tunnel tests by Gifford Technology (USA) in the late ‘80s showed that the sprit sail out performed it on all points of sail.
Yes, that’s right.  The SPRIT sail ! 
(See “WoodenBoat” No.92  article by Colin Palmer.)

Why don’t we all have ‘em, then?  Possibly because they are a b***** to reef.
No such problem with a lug sail, fully battened or not.
Loss of performance?
‘Llafurio’  quotes 8.7 knots on a reach - with a reduced mainsail sliding Gunter rig, is it? (see first comment on this thread) Well, I reckon to be at least a couple of knots down on potential hull speed from a BayRaider, with no possibility of getting up on to the plane in the CBL “Four Sisters”  (balanced lug with the same double –ended hull as the Storm 19 pictured at the top of this page) but I’m disappointed if I don’t hit 5.8 to 6 knots on a reach before she gets over pressed  and needs a reef.
.....AND I don’t need to muck about with a spinnaker going down wind.

Best of all for the single handed sailor, the lug sail goes up - and more importantly - down again like a Venetian blind.  Let go the halyard from the cockpit and the sail’s on deck instantly, with no nasty little slides to get jammed in a track.

david

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Re: Smaller Mainsail on BR20
« Reply #26 on: 07 Oct 2012, 17:32 »
Llafurio, Do you have pictures of the spar and gaff you made for the smaller sail please? Any insight you can prvide on the making of these would also be appreciated. I am not good at making things and would appreciate any help you can prvide on the making of the spars.

Regards,

David.

P.S. I am in the U.S. and am enjoying my Bayraider with the orginal Bayraider sail configuration. Not a Burmudian fan either.
David

Ex - BR 20 - Nomad

Llafurio

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Re: Smaller Mainsail on BR20
« Reply #27 on: 07 Oct 2012, 22:32 »
Hi David,
very pleased to hear you prefer the Gunter rig. It's the real thing for a raid boat. Would like to give the info you seek straightaway but cannot at this stage as I am on a hike through central Italy.  Will respond asap. C.
Ex various Drascombes, ex SeaRaider (WE) #1 "Craic", ex BR20 (GRE) "Llafurio", ex BR20 (GRP) "Tipsy", currently BRE (modified for open sea passages) "Homer", Drascombe Drifter "27" and Drascombe Drifter No. 31 "Amity". Homeport: Rossdohan

Graham W

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Re: Smaller Mainsail on BR20
« Reply #28 on: 29 Oct 2012, 20:36 »
Anyone know the sail area displacement ratio for a Storm 17?

I don't think anyone replied to your query, Clem.  The answer is 25.8 unballasted, 18.1 with a full 230kg tank.  Better late than never.  See http://www.swallowyachtsassociation.org/smf/index.php/topic,456.msg3975.html#msg3975
Graham
Gunter-rigged GRP BR20 #59 Turaco III