Portsmouth Yardstick

[Graham W]

At the recent Swallow raid in Mylor, the following handicaps were assigned to each boat by the organisers:
Storm 17 – 1205
BR17 and BC20 – 1175
BR20 1145
BRe and BC23 – 1085
BC26 and SR23 – 1025

Similar handicaps were used at the recent English Raid in Plymouth.

These scores are estimates of the Portsmouth Yardstick handicaps, the lower the score the bigger the handicap.  So a hydrofoiling Moth catamaran is only 600, while a Mirror is 1385.  The Drascombe Coaster is around 1325, the Lugger around 1385, the Cornish Shrimper about 1305 and the Hawk 20 1115.  To translate to the system used in the US, I think you divide by 10.

[Anthony Huggett]

The SB Mylor Raid handicap made Emily vs the lead BR20s a very close thing. 3% or thereabouts.

I've a horrible feeling they gave Emily the Storm 17 handicap on the English Raid ... . They were talking in terms of 10% vs a BR20 and I'm pretty sure our number started with a 12. Too late, I've drunk the wine!

That said, raid handicaps also depend on the number of rowers & oars, and one should get a handicap penalty for a spinnaker (and a mizzen staysail, extra headsail etc.) if carried, regardless of whether or not they are actually used in a particular race.

A good handicap system is designed to minimize (but not entirely remove) the advantage from any particular addition such as a spinnaker, extra rower, etc.

[David Hudson]

But then you have: With water ballast or
                              Without water ballast.

No engine, no water ballast = fast?

BayRaider v Bayraider Expedition?

[Mark Rushton]

At Grafham we have some friendly races for those new to racing and intimidated by the main club racing on Sundays. We have tried racing our BRe off the Wayfarer handicap of 1112 and were trounced by the other boats which we should have beaten had we sailed either of our other boats. The wind conditions were light to medium, we had three on board with full sail, no outboard and no ballast, other boats were not trapezing.

I suspect that an appropriate handicap for a BRe will be somewhere around 1200, we're slower than a Wayfarer and faster than a Shrimper, but this can only be established by people going racing and experimenting with numbers until they find one that fits.

With regard to the Raid handicaps; the extra weight of the equipment you need to carry for those events will slow a Wayfarer considerably compared to the stripped out version to which the RYA's handicap relates.

[Peter Taylor]

I'm not sure how you compare a Swallow Yacht handicap with a dinghy handicap. Sometimes as I sail down Southampton Water I get amongst the dinghy races.  When this first occurred I was pleasantly surprised that Seatern was keeping up with, or outpacing, even some of the faster class dinghies - Merlins, Fireballs, and some of those new fangled things.  But then I thought about it and realised Seatern is 20 foot long so provided she is going at around "hull speed" (which she achieves quite easily even in relatively light winds), I should be faster than the shorter dinghies. Of course, as soon as  there is enough wind for them to plane, all I can do is wave good bye as they disappear into the distance.  Comparison with a dinghy like a Wayfarer, or my own 15' Seafly, only makes sense if the dinghy is weighed down with enough cruising gear to stop it planing.  But then the dinghy will not sail to its normal PY handicap.  Handicap racing is fun but I don't think it should be taken too seriously!

[David Hudson]

You tell that to our fleet Peter!

Beadnell may look picturesque but the handicap fleet is cutthroat.

My bowsprit shows the scars of an encounter with a Devon Yawl we caught when
he stupidly tried to cross us while he was on port tack.

[Anthony Huggett]

In reply to David's first comment, there is one handicap for a boat for a series. So if your boat has a water ballast system it's up to you to use it appropriately, rather than declaring your use of ballast to the race officer (and what if on a long course you dumped it on the downwind legs and re-flooded for the upwind). Likewise you can use or not use a spinnaker in each race but if you have a spinnaker available in the series you get the handicap penalty that is due regardless of whether or not you put it up in any particular race (or indeed at all). The exe

What I picked up from the SB rally at Mylor, and is borne out in Emily's performance is that once the wind picks up, having the water ballast in is an advantage because the boat is stable, so carries more sail, and has more mass to punch through the waves. So far this is borne out by our experience with Emily. That said, ballast in certainly slows us down rowing or in sailing in F3 or less.

[David Hudson]

Ballasted or unballasted: for a series;whether weekend, week, or longer; you have to choose your configuration if that is allowed in the Notice of Race. More than this becomes unmanageable for the Race Officers. Perhaps the handicap rating should be based on the "faster option", with the alternative configuration taking advantage or otherwise.

In the good old days it was possible to lose weight from a water jacket but that is not an issue when declaring a Class approved dinghy to race. Whether ballasted or unballasted at signing in, that is the competitor's decision. The same applies to kites or no kites but the usual in most Classes is, if it a Class allowed sail, then it is up to you whether you use one or not.

[Andy Dingle]

An interesting thread and one which I too have thought about several times over the years with my BR20 and BC23. Where do we fit into the grand scheme of things in terms of handicap when 'racing' with other classes?

As far as I know there has not been any PY numbers allocated to any of the Swallow Boats?

I'd been considering how or even if, we could fit into the National Cruising Handicap scheme, which 100's of other makes of boats are. See the RYA's NCH Baseline list of already involved boats and which, I understand, many clubs now use.
These, of course, are pertinent to cruisers, but would I be wrong in thinking that Swallow Yachts fall into the cruising category rather than the racing genre of boats? Such small boats boats as the Swift 18, Etap 20 etc, that are more dinghy's with lids as opposed to out and out racing cruisers are listed. Even the Cornish Crabber 17, and we are far faster than that!
But it seems not one Swallow Boat is listed, despite the 100's now being out there.

There is, it seems, a mechanism in place to be allocated a 'base line number' and I wondered what the thoughts were from the (non) association (or even from Matt?) on enquiring with the RYA about this?
If there is any interest in pursueing this? - or do you think this is a negative step into becoming 'organised'!

If there is any interest then I'll make enquiry with the RYA? Or are we happy with how we are?

I've attached the link to the RYA website where all the info is.. including the important base line list. I'm a little out of my depth with all this, but am happy to look into it for the good and benefit, as they say. If anyone has any working knowledge of the NCH then please let us know?

As an aside. David, thanks for the picture of Beadnell Bay! - It bought back happy memories of diving the SS Somali deep in Beadnell Bay, one of my all time favourite dives.
I'd like to sail from there sometime - or Seahouses probably?


http://www.rya.org.uk/racing/Pages/NHC.aspx

Andy

[MarkDarley]

Has anyone been assigned an OGA handicap for their Bayraider 20?
Mark
"Pippin"

[johnguy]

At Cardiff Bay Yacht Club they have given my Bre a PY of 1050 and we are competitive with a very mixed fleet of bigger cruisers on that.

The race officer adjusts this so he can usually come out faster but it seems about right.

The OGA has given us 0.805  and I thrash all the OGA boats in Cardiff on our evening sails.

[MarkDarley]

Johnguy,

Can I assume that 0.805 is an OGA rating with the water ballast in, and that you are using it when  thrashing the other boats?
And are you using, and have you declared, an asymmetric spinnaker?
And do you have the gunter or bermudan rig?

I am just about to apply for an OGA handicap for the Falmouth Classic Regatta, and the OGA Helford meet.

Mark

[johnguy]

Hi Mark

I have the standard new Bre bermudan rig with bowsprit and asymetric.

I filled in the dimensions and sail details for the OGA register online and they gave me that number. I don't think the question of ballast came up. And maybe not asymmetric either, I can't remember, but anyway we only race informally in Cardiff Bay and I never get the asymmetric up there. I did once and nearly took out a fleet of learners trying to get it down again, so  i save it for when we are outside the Bay now...

Mostly we race with ballast in, only once without, but the boat skids around a lot and I think it goes better ballasted really.

The local OGA group sail together every Thursday evening and we all do a time trial round a set course.  There are some lovely gaffers here but the Bre is the fastest on the water by a good margin. Corrected for handicap we would also lead handsomely, but I don't put my results in officially as I don't want to win an OGA prize. I prefer that to be a gaffer. I'm only in the OGA for the local social element. The beer and fish and chips after the Thursday sailing...

Not taking it too seriously I'm afraid.

The Tuesday pm sailing with the PY is slightly more serious with proper results and varying courses and bigger boats, so we are nowhere near the fastest, but we came 4th yesterday and are 4th overall against some serious people. However the PY is also not so seriously allocated, just done on the whim of the guy who organises the race series and fixed so his boat comes out well.

Cheers

John

[Llafurio]

What is the actual / latest on the handicap of the Bayraider 20?

There was one estimate in 2015 of a Portsmouth Yardstick of 1145. Which I found unconvincing because in the same post there was also given a PY of 1085 for the BR Expedition. To the best of my experience, the BR20 is a faster resp. closer pointing boat than the BRe.

(I do not think the Bermudian mainsail of the BRe gives the BRe advantage over the Gunter main of the original BR20. I have both rigs and prefer the Gunter for ease of handling. I did not experience a difference in speed / pointing between the two, in  coastal high winds that is.)

In recent years we raced the Gunter rigged BR20 with a handicap of 105 / 1050, but frankly missed any silver though being first boat in many times. So, has some more accurate BR20 handicap been established / assigned  in the meantime?

[Peter T]

As you may know the PY numbers for cruisers (which I think includes the BR20 in this context) were abandoned some years ago so there cannot be an “actual” or “latest” PY number. 

Many clubs now use (or insist on!) Byron handicaps http://www.byronsoftware.org/boats/ which are compatible with the old PY numbers.  The 1085 that you quote for the BRE is I think a number used for some raids and is quoted as such at the top of this page but is probably just a number that someone thought about right.  I chose to use 1085 for my BRE in 2018 but in 2019 I obtained two different Byron numbers for the BRE:

Firstly a number obtained from Matt (which Matt obtained from Byron some years ago) based on the standard Bermudian rig, as follows:

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Based on Class information provided for Boat: Swallow BayRaider  Expedition : the handicap is 1072 with a uSA/Disp ratio of 30.65 and a displacement hull speed of 5.73 knots.  It is noted that the vessel has a displacement of 450kgs hence the high power ratio for the declared sail area, which indicates that the vessel is expected to readily exceed the displacement sailing condition.
The above handicap is most appropriate for a 'series of races' where course(s) have all points of sailing in the proportion to that of an 'Olympic' style of course (ie triangle+sausage) or an 'extended race' with variable conditions.

With the water ballast tank full for the race duration, making a displacement figure of 750kg, then the handicap is 1112 with a uSA/Disp ratio of 21.80. This type of craft is expected to have a wide range of race performance returns dependent on course and wind strength, if the course has more off-wind legs than an Olympic style course then these predicted performances can be exceeded.
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If I am racing in a series (which I always am) then I sail with ballast tank full but I think if I used 1112 I would be accused of banditry.  In these circumstances I would use 1085.

I don’t however use 1085 because I obtained my own personal Byron number (for a small voluntary fee) reflecting the fact that I invariably use the larger genoa foresail. 

This produced a handicap of 1063 for empty displacement and 1078 for ballast tank full.  Both these ratings seem a tad harsh given the modest increase in sail area.  If you agree then you might be tempted to conclude that my voluntary fee should perhaps have been larger, but I am sure this is not the case.

It is just possible that Matt has a Byron number for the BR20 so that is where I would start.