Warning to BR20 sailors; flooding of stowage compartments when

[Llafurio]

Llafurio,
are you talking about water entering from above as it comes over the side of the boat, or coming in round the bottom of the lid from the cockpit?
Mark.

The water gets in both ways, also from the cockpit side. Depends on how high the water sloshes inside the cockpit in the wave movement. The water intake into the cockpit is massive when a bad gust hits the boat and lays it down for one moment. With the wind under the hull the boat is pushed sideways to lee and literally scoops the water in big with the gunnel. The boat then rights again and the water floods into the cockpit itself. The self bailers cannot let out the water quickly enough so the cockpit water sloshes high in the wave action and with the next gust climbs up the inside cockpit stowage compartment side and over the lid. I would like to say that all this happened to me and my crew at the high end but still inside category C conditions.

[mark1]

Thanks for that, force 6 then?
were the waves beginning to break?
any tide against wind effect?
I've seen photos of your boat, I am interested in what kind of passages you are doing in it.

[david]

I think it is safe to say that I will not be out, intentionally, in those kinds of weather conditions. Only way would be if I got caught out. Possible, so good to hear strategies for heavy weather sailing in a BayRaider.
 I do not have the locker seals on my boat, so am interested to see the solution Matt comes up with on this.
 The sun usually has to be out for me, not usually a problem in Southern California. 

[Colin Morley]

I have read this with great interest. However, I am still not quite sure about the detail. In particular exactly what are the cut outs and where are they? Please could we have a close up photo? Also could we have a photo of the recommended seals so there is no misunderstanding about what people are referring to.

[Graham W]

Colin,

Here are photos of the seals, from the previous fairly comprehensive thread on wet locker misery http://www.swallowyachtsassociation.org/smf/index.php/topic,414.msg2537.html#msg2537.  The cut-outs are also discussed there (see the final post from Matt) with one fairly clear photo but no close-ups.

As said in another context

There is a  solution long known.

I was out on Lake Bala today in an F6, which was much stronger than forecast.  I shipped one solid green one over the starboard gunwale.  Nothing reached the inside of the locker but I got quite wet.

[Andy Dingle]

David - reading your post took me back one or two years ..  when Albert Hammond was reminding us all in damp windy England  'That it never rains in southern California, but (there's always a but!) girl, don't they warn ya, It pours man, it pours!'
,
So look out and get them locker seals in place ..  or else!

[Alan M]

I have experienced the flooded locker problem. I was sailing single handed, with water ballast and the second reef in the mainsail into a F6. With this set up I felt overpowered in the 25 knot gusts and if I wasn't quick enough easing the mainsheet I took water over the gunwhale. I persisted with beating into the wind in order to reach my intended destination when I probably ought to have run back to my launch site. Earlier I had tried sailing under mizzen and jib alone but made very little progress to windward and also found the boat really didn't want to tack. With water in the lockers the boat felt less stable but stiffened considerably when heeled.
When I reached my destination, it took some time to bail out the lockers.

I didn't regard this as a locker design issue until I read this thread. I simply felt that I had been carrying too much sail for the conditions. Mizzen and jib was too little but adding the fully reefed main approximately doubled the area and was too much for me single handed. I would have liked to have been able to present a sail area somewhere between the two. The second reef in the main being a much bigger reduction than present perhaps? I have experimented sailing in a F5 with reefed main and mizzen alone but not surprisingly the boat displayed considerable weather helm. Any suggestions?

I will look again at the locker lids when I get a chance with a view to making the recommended modifications.

[Graham W]

Alan,

There's a thread about a reduced area battened mainsail which when reefed is quite a bit smaller than the standard mainsail - see http://www.swallowyachtsassociation.org/smf/index.php/topic,763.0.html.  Had I known that the winds on Bala were going to be as strong as they were yesterday, I probably would have taken it with me.  I had one reef in the standard main and was ballasted and had to be very quick on the mainsheet to avoid being overpowered.  Eventually I dropped the main and like you was under just jib and mizzen.  I could make progress to windward but pointed about 10° off the wind (50° apparent) compared to normal.  I was still doing well over 4 knots over the ground but felt safe if a bit bored with the slow progress.

You didn't say where you were sailing.  Bala is only 3 miles long with limited fetch, so wave action is much less than out at sea with a contrary tide.  I still managed to ship one green wave (and showed my centreboard to onlookers) due to inattention.

If you have trouble tacking under jib and mizzen, try pulling the mizzen to windward like an aircraft rudder until on the opposite tack.  It works really well.

[Alan M]

Graham,

I was heading  West in the Western Solent against an incoming Neap tide (another reason why I should have turned around). Sailing under Jib and Mizzen I was making reasonable progress through the water but virtually nil progress over ground. This was why I hoisted the main and drove the boat harder than I wanted. It wasn't the waves that were my problem, it was that I occasionally put the gunwhale under water. It doesn't help that when fully reefed, the main represents approximately only half the sail area, so spilling wind from the main in the event of a gust doesn't offer the same degree of relief compared to a Bermudan rigged dinghy, for instance. Also, in a dinghy you can spill wind by allowing the boat to turn up into wind as it heels in response to the gust, the weather helm generally encouraging the boat to do so quite quickly. I have found the Bayraider is slower to respond in this way, and so have learned to be ready with the mainsheet in hand at all times in lively conditions.

Thanks for the tip regarding steering with the Mizzen, I picked that up from this forum more recently and you are right, it does work well.

As for the reduced area Mainsail: Again, I have already read your previous postings on this subject with interest. I have an old-ish mainsail which I had cut down to the size of the first reef and having purchased a second-hand yard, I reduced the length of the original yard to work with this modified sail. As I normally sail single handed I am finding the reduced sail area is about right for me most of the time. I only have one reef which is the original second reef (I would prefer a greater reduction).

Only having a single reef has allowed me to set up a slab reefing system which allows me to put in a reef quickly without having to fully lower the mainsail. I found it really difficult to reef in a bit of a blow with the original set up. Also, I prefer the shortened yard not clashing with the Mizzen mast when supported on the topping lift.

Alan

[Graham W]

Yes, you definitely need to play the mainsheet to deal with strong gusts - inattention in high winds can have consequences!

One other thought for heavy weather sailing which may have been discussed elsewhere and I should have tried yesterday - how about furling the mizzen and sailing with a reefed main and jib as an alternative to jib & mizzen?  Presumably you would lose some or all of the weather helm.  On the home leg downwind yesterday I furled the mizzen and was under jib only and was still touching nearly 4 knots.

My reduced mainsail doesn't use a gunter yard as it is not tall enough to need one - it only reaches the top of the mast.  I hadn't thought about slab reefing for it.

[Alan M]

I haven't tried Main and Jib alone, I fear that may result in Lee Helm but I should give it a go. I have sailed with just the reefed Main in a F5 which was nicely balanced. The advantage was that I was able to spill wind easily during gusts with mainsheet in hand, unlike sailing under Jib and Mizzen.
Alan

[Llafurio]

Thanks for that, force 6 then?
were the waves beginning to break?
any tide against wind effect?
I've seen photos of your boat, I am interested in what kind of passages you are doing in it.

Not even F6, but hard gusts. No serious breaking waves, no tide against wind. Only some cross seas reflected from a leeward cliff coast. I sail on the southwest coast of Ireland. We were out that day not in my BRe modified for extended voyages but in my standard GRP BR20.

BTW, my modified BRe has been retrofitted by a yard -not SwY- with a new floor in both stowage compartments at the level of the cockpit floor. There are non-return diaphragm valves fitted from stowage floors to cockpit floor so at least no water can remain caught inside the lockers even after the boat is tacked.

[Llafurio]

I have experienced the flooded locker problem. ...
I didn't regard this as a locker design issue until I read this thread.

Well it is a design issue. By design, water can get in but not out again. And worse, once the water gets in, the boat heels even more, so even more water gets in, until the locker compartment is full, and I estimate that is about 200 ltrs. of extra water which one cannot get out again at sea in those conditions. And even worse, this process is not symmetric, i.e. it does not seem to happen in both side compartments equally, so as to balance themselves out, but the self-aggravating flooding of one side stowage locker on seems to lead to  the opposite locker staying dry.

The solution cannot be seals, because the righting capapility from inversion of the boat would be negatively impacted by the lockers NOT filling during an attempted inversion roll-back. And, as we experienced, because of the water entering from the cockpit side, where the locker lids are not sealed nor would be sealable. And, I attach a photo from my boat Homer after one season, seals are unreliable anyway.

IMO a real improvement would already be to cut out the vertical cockpit wall higher, raising the treshold height for water entering from the cockpit side, and to cut the horizontal locker top at the gunnel side (where they now put the seals) much less, and in a curved fashion.

The safest solution would be to -also- put in a new floor inside the compartments at the cockpit floor level, so no water can get caught in the lower tip of the compartment below the cockpit floor level.

CR

[Alan M]

Interesting points 'Llafurio'.

In elevating the stowage locker floors you will be creating an additional albeit small buoyancy chamber below them. Any concerns regarding the behaviour of the boat on it's side in the event of a capsize? Also, do you have any reference to the specific type of diaphragm valves you are proposing to use?

So far my efforts have focussed on being able to reduce sail quickly and easily to match the conditions that present themselves and also being able to respond to gusts appropriately in order to avoid water coming over the gunwhale. However, I do accept that this may occasionally happen and the locker / lid design can be optimised to minimise water ingress. I did consider whether it may be possible to fit a central drain tube from the outboard drain channel which would exit just above the cockpit floor through the vertical inboard wall of the locker. My logic here was that the water when dumped over the gunwhale into that channel has to make it's way forward and aft to the downward angled drain channels to escape. As the locker is quite long, the water has some way to go so an additional central drain may help the water to escape more easily. The pipe would have to be routed so as not to bisect the storage area.

Alan

[Graham W]

At the risk of it appearing like Groundhog Day:

The solution cannot be seals.....because of the water entering from the cockpit side, where the locker lids are not sealed nor would be sealable.

If you fix the recommended bulb seals where I have indicated (photo from 2011 attached, again), this stops water migrating from the cockpit sole up into the lockers and from the gunwales down into the lockers. With the addition of the locker lid corner cut-outs, of course.

The solution cannot be seals, because the righting capability from inversion of the boat would be negatively impacted by the lockers NOT filling during an attempted inversion roll-back.

Lack of seals along the topmost locker rims fore and aft allows the port locker to fill following inversion.  I know this, because I have inverted.

seals are unreliable anyway.

Most of us would agree that the sticky neoprene seals don't stick for long enough. I have used the same bulb seals with steel jaws for six years in rough conditions and without the problems that you describe.  They may not be for anyone with weak hinge syndrome but they work on my 2010 BR20.