Warning to BR20 sailors; flooding of stowage compartments when

[Matt Newland]

Dear All,
I am sorry to take a while to get back to you all on this one, we have been round the houses trying to find an improved seal. I had hoped to use a D section adhesive sealing one that was similar, but with better adhesion, than the standard rubber one we fit. I will have some more news for you soon, but it looks like we will revert to something very similar to Grahams, with a bulb type seal.
The boats actually pass the European technical requirements required of them with no seal at all, which is my feeble excuse for not having acted sooner, but I would like to improve this aspect of the boat, so will be attempting to contact all BR20 and BRe owners to urge them to get the retrofit done as soon as we have fitted and tested it.
I should have more news for you soon.
Matt

[Llafurio]

..
The boats actually pass the European technical requirements required of them with no seal at all....

The question remains whether the boats still pass the "European technical requirements" (i.e. the ISO standard righting test , "Option 7"- WITH the stowage compartments sealed. We last spoke about this five years ago. Was the righting from inversion with sealed compartments tested as was the righting with unsealed compartments? C.

[david]

Thank you Matt.

[Peter Cockerton]

Then came the neoprene seals, but they are unreliable, and, worse, if they work, they disable the boat from being re-rightable from a full turtle by a singlehander. I strongly advise against seals for that reason.
 The solution cannot be seals, because the righting capapility from inversion of the boat would be negatively impacted by the lockers NOT filling during an attempted inversion roll-back.
.

Water ingress into the lockers and the instability created is unquestionably undesirable and all efforts to resolve this must be considered. I have the locker corners removed and adhesive foam positioned as recommended on the locker edges the adhesion qualities reinforced with a layer of duct tape over the top for now. I have also purchased the bulb seals as posted however the thickness of my GRP especially on the top outermost edge of the locker is thicker than the bulb seal likes and as such opens the metal jaws beyond the distance where they then grip the GRP.

GRP Boats Only

My understanding of the ACB feature gleaned from reading the BR20 manual and open to correction from more knowledgeable owners.

On inversion of the boat the water inlet (wood lined hole next to mizzen allows water to enter the port side buoyancy chamber destroying the buoyancy and the hull then sits lower in the water on the port side which assists the recovery of the boat to the upright position. Once upright the water in the port side buoyancy chamber drains into outboard well and restores the desirable buoyancy of the side chamber.

If were saying that the port locker should flood to assist the ACB feature and we have solved the undesirable water ingress into the lockers (effectively sealing the locker chamber) how is it supposed to enter the locker under the current design of the locker chamber.



Peter C

 

[Tim Riley]

Firstly, I have to apologise as apparently I am not a full member of the turtle club, having only done a half roll in a BR20 and managed to prevent full inversion by holding on to the rudder with all my weight which had fortunately jammed mid position by the outboard "over cocking" itself.

To reply to the issue of lower freeboard when water ballasted I firmly believe that the added stability is well worth the loss of a few inches and will continue sailing that way regardless of the chop.

Are we concentrating too much on the seals? It has previously been proven that the cut outs in the corners of the locker covers improved the situation, therefore what about reducing the gap behind the locker when shut to reduce the amount of water trying to find its way down the gutter at the back? If a strip similar to the neoprene seal was stuck in the gap it might just reduce the speed of water flow and therefore allow it to flow away without going over the top and into the locker. It would not even have to touch both surfaces and would therefore be immune to the creep when using it on the weight bearing surfaces. We are never going to make them watertight whatever seal is used but all we have to do is reduce the flow down the back.
This may also help to explain why some people find it an issue and others don't - maybe the gap behind the locker is greater on some boats?
Are other Bayraider sailors surprised when they sail on big yachts  to find that they have great big cockpit lockers with bendy lids and flimsy catches that down below are essentially open to the rest of the boat? -and they are Cat C boats!

[Graham W]

Are other Bayraider sailors surprised when they sail on big yachts?

Yes

Are we concentrating too much on the seals?

Are you having a laugh?

[Matt Newland]

Dear All,
There are a number of ways of passing the RCD/ISO test.  Option 7 of ISO 12217 that Claus/Llafurio refers to is just one and mainly encompasses the capsize recovery test. If you can pass that one (recovery from full inversion) there are few other requirements to pass. It was our initial aim when designing the boat that we pass under this option, but in practice, we took the view that in the BayRaider it was marginal, and could not always be predicted accurately.  For example a user stowing heavy equipment in one side locker could severely affect its ability to be righted. There is also no way that the BayRaider Expedition could be righted from a full inversion without a crew of fit people, or outside assistance. Of course under the ISO there are many ways to assess different types of boat, and she formally passes under a different option, which mainly takes into account her large reserve of buoyancy, and her righting moment compared to wind heeling moment (ie her stiffness).

Aside from the ISO tests, the ability of the lockers to flood to aid recovery from full inversion is undoubtedly helpful, which is why we have never fitted a seal that entirely encompasses the perimeter of the hatch. In this way, as Graham has expanded at length on this forum, if the seals are good (and I accept the ones originally supplied were not) waves over the side in difficult conditions are mainly kept out of the lockers but in the event of a capsize, they can still flood.
So to answer the question, no we have not formally tested the boat with seals under option 7 (full capsize) because she is not assessed under this part of the ISO. She does fully comply with the RCD/ISO and fitting, or not fitting seals will not affect this. I accept however that unwanted water in the lockers does affect the user, and having seals that work better is something we are working on, and hope to have more news for owners soon.
Matt

[Llafurio]

I would be more than sorry if SwY abandons testing the BR hands-on for rightability from inversion by a singlehander, as was done when the BR came out first, and was shown on Youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvNj2Mj4JZg . I always thought that the tested and proven rightability by a single crew in accordance with ISO standard was THE outstanding feature of the BR worthy to be noted and advertised. I certainly put my trust in it, though I was careful enough not to turtle my SwBs ever in a decade of hard use and racing.

Re retrofitting seals now please do not forget sealing also the vertical side of the locker adjacent the cockpit sole, because that is where the flooding comes in also, as we have experienced.   

[Graham W]

I would be more than sorry if SwY abandons testing the BR hands-on for rightability from inversion by a singlehander

Nobody is abandoning anything and the BR20 hasn't changed since the original capsize videos, which demonstrated that they can be righted solo thanks to the asymmetric buoyancy feature.  If they decided not to do the formal test under ISO's option 7 for the reasons given, that's their decision to take.

This is not the place to pursue what looks increasingly like a vendetta against the yard, dressed up as concerns about safety in extreme conditions.  You did something similar in 2011 and you were asked to desist.  You've already had lengthy and remarkably polite answers to all your comments and suggestions on the lockers, so you should now give it a rest.

[Llafurio]

...
This is not the place to pursue what looks increasingly like a vendetta against the yard, dressed up as concerns about safety in extreme conditions.  You did something similar in 2011 and you were asked to desist.  You've already had lengthy and remarkably polite answers to all your comments and suggestions on the lockers, so you should now give it a rest.

Dear Graham,

you are trying to be a reliable apologist for the yard, but I doubt you have all the facts of my long connection with the yard and with the BRs. Talk to me like this again, and I'll spill some.

You are right, I had been privately asked to desist in 2011, because I was "hurting sales". And I did desist, for 6 years. All that my keeping quiet resulted in was some neoprene seals that do not work. I have been caught again in this design problem again, out at sea, and I find it's time for the yard to come  up finally with a reliable and safe solution. And I'll be quiet then. C.

[Jonathan Stuart]

Writing as one of the forum's administrators and moderators, I'm sorry to say that I don't believe the tone of these latest comments is appropriate or constructive. One of the forum's purposes is to share all our experiences - positive and negative - with Swallow's boats and where there are problems or challenges we discuss potential solutions in a positive fashion. This topic has degenerated to a point where users' experiences and solutions are being ignored and personal comments and apparent threats are being made. Let's not go further down this path; the forum's moderators have never had to moderate forum posts other than those that were spam and we don't want to start now.

If anyone has anything further to say on this topic then please contribute in the spirit of this forum. But, given the lengthy discussion on this topic and the potential solutions offered, I suggest that further posts should be limited to those that add to our knowledge of this problem or it's resolution.

[Llafurio]

... I suggest that further posts should be limited to those that add to our knowledge of this problem or it's resolution.

The problem leading to the flooding of the side lockers is water pooling on the seats at the lee gunwhale coaming when the boat is sailing well heeled. And when cockpit water creeps up the lee cockpit coaming when the boat is knocked by a severe gust. The criterion is that the inward sloping angle of the drain channels goes beyond horizontal so that the water flow in those channels is reversed to outwards.

The consequences are that the boat looses stiffness, which in turn causes further heeling and so even more water intake, until the lee locker is completely flooded with approx. 0.2 tons of water. From which point the boat struggles to make good to windward due to the massive heel. The water inside the locker then is trapped in the locker, will not drain significantly when the boat changes tack, and would need to be pumped out manually. Which is difficult in the wild conditions in which this heeling typically occurs. 

There are several reasons why sealing the lockers with rubber seals is not a reliable and not a safe option, for older boats it is not even possible.: Rubber seals are not maintenance-free, as the adhesive used will age with the conditions, and the rubber will deform its shape over time. Then such seals will require downward pressure to seal evenly a large area as around the locker opening. On older boats the seat of the screws holding the lid hinges does not take such forces. The screws loose grip.

And, for the re-righting of the boat from inversion by singlehander or small crew, the floodability of the   
lockers is integral part of the righting process.

I will therefore not seal my lockers. I will instead close in the vertical and horizontal opening of the lockers as sketched red in the attached photo. This closing off will result in increasing significantly the heeling angle from which pooled water can downflood into the lockers. In addition I have already fitted a diaphragm non-return valve -marked round- which will limit the maximum water amount possibly trapped in the locker, and which will vent air trapped in the locker if the boat should be on its back requiring to be righted. CR   

[Guy Rossey]

One could also imagine a plastic sheet covering completely the open locker, the flaps covering the edges and fixed by a rubber line or push buttons. This would limit water intake but not air outlet.
__________________
Catchando Bay, BR#48

[Matt Newland]

Hello All,
I have asked Jonathan Stuart to post a document in the maintenance and modification section of the library, which details our preferred solution to the locker issue. We have located a type of D seal that flattens easily and so should not put existing hinges on older boats under any significant stress. It is self adhesive but a 3M product which sticks considerably better than the old type (also down to its different section).
I do take into consideration Claus' comments and ideas, and certainly his solution is also a very workable one, but I believe seals as described and fitted in the document will achieve almost the same thing without restricting locker access. It is also a much easier thing to retrofit, a factor in the likelihood of it getting done.
We will be trying to contact all BayRaider and Expedition GRP customers over the next week to advertise these changes, and urge retrofitting of them. We have asked for a small charge to cover some of the costs and postage.
Please contact us directly (admin@) to order yours as soon as possible.
Best wishes
Matt

[Saxisgood]

Having had my fair amount of water in the cockpit (I might add, sailing in conditions not forecast and on my own that I would rather have avoided, F7 Gusting 8 in the Solent en-route to Lymington) it is great news that the kit has been sorted and I have ordered mine today.  The only reason I did actually get some water in the Port locker was due to the fuel intake cover for the petrol tank in the locker being open to water sloshing around in the cockpit (have sorted this now and tested with no detriment to the fuel pipe by just filling the space around the fuel pipe with some foam pipe insulation)
Whilst I don't intend to go out in such conditions on purpose :-), I will report back once fitted and also should I get caught out again.
Thanks Matt and team for getting the solution sorted now
Colin - BRE031 Hardytoo