Racing .. National Handicap for Cruisers (NHC)

[Andy Dingle]

Chaps ..  does anyone do any racing under the NHC?

If so, does anyone know of the base numbers for the Baycruiser 23, or indeed any of the Swallow Yachts..?

This system has now been in use for a good few years and although I think this topic has been discussed before, I can't find any trace of Swallow Yachts contributions to the scheme and the base numbers - or even any post base numbers that have been accrued from results?

Does anyone know how the base numbers are originated? Or indeed, is this matter up to the Swallow Yachts builders to supply, the RYA to conjure up, or us, as the nearest thing to a class association to come up with ..?

I see even the Hawk 20 (comparable to the BR's and BRe's?) is listed..

Regards

Andy and Equinox

[Graham W]

Andy,

This is probably not much use to you but here is an extract from the notice of race from this year's raid in Falmouth:

"Results:   
4.1 Results shall be calculated using Portsmouth Yardstick System, according to handicaps assigned to Swallow Yachts models by the Organising Authority.  Handicaps may be adjusted during the event as required.  Initial handicaps set as follows:
4.2.  Storm 17 - 1205;  BR17 and BC20 - 1175;  BR20, BRe and BC23 - 1110;  BC26 - 1085;  and SR23 - 1025.  Consideration has been given for the BC's lack of oars."

That last sentence suggests that in straight sailing races, the BC23 handicap would be more severe.  Maybe something could be worked out under the NHC by equating a Hawk with the BR20 as a starting point and then moving on from there?

[Andy Dingle]

Thanks Graham. That is quite interesting as I'd checked the lists of PY no's too and didn't see any mention of Swallows there either, (on the RYA website), but that may just be me...!
I wonder - or if anyone knows - where these numbers were obtained and who the 'Organising Authority' is..?


Since my first post I have sent off an email to the RYA (on advice from their website that I found retrospectively, copied to Matt) asking for advice re how we can be allocated base numbers to compete under the NHC. I suspect it will be some devilish computation derived from dimensions etc.
I'm not sure what the future of the established PY system is. I may be wrong in thinking that the NHC was to replace the PY system in time? In my fairly limited experience it seems most clubs are now using the NHC with it's associated software to compute a flexible 'average' dependent on the many variables of course, weather, race position, (in our case possibly with water ballast in or out), etc. So your class NHC number will actually change all the time.

When/if I get a reply I will of course keep all up to date on what they say - but I'll keep pushing them for an outcome and I hope for Matt's support.
The RYA's current list shows some very obscure boats that have been allocated base numbers so I am very surprised that Swallows don't seem to feature. Especially now that Matt is established as perhaps one of the biggest boat builders left in this country..

I'm sure all will agree that we really need to get a definitive on this matter - and I'm hoping to campaign my BC23 more seriously next year.

It did occur to me that the very original spirit of this association was not to be encumbered with 'rules and regulations'. But I feel this information, if we can obtain it, will be to the good and benefit of Swallows owners/skippers who, of course, can choose to use it or not at their will.

I'd be very grateful for thoughts/feedback from other Swallows re this matter..?

KR

Andy and Equinox

[Andy Dingle]

Quick update.

I've been onto the RYA and I have had a very prompt response promising to help out with providing us with the NHC base numbers.
The information this is based on is the displacement, the up wind sail area and the design year (to cater for slight changes in designs the designer/makers make).

Matt too has been good in sending me this info to me promptly too. For info to owners this is:

Boat   Displacement (max)          Upwind SA       Design year
BayRaider 20   1390kg                  16.93 m2               2006
BayRaider E    1460kg                   17.7 m2                 2011
BayCruiser 23   1900kg                  23.55 m2               2010
BayCruiser 26   3097kg                  29.95 m2               2014

Please note the displacement quoted is with ballast tanks full.

I've sent this to Suzie Holland at the RYA and hopefully we will have NHC base numbers issued shortly and will appear on their list for world wide use.
Club racing officers will be aware of the system and will have the necessary software for your winning results!
I would perhaps suggest that the NHC system is adopted for Swallow Yachts rallies racing rather than a PY number of uncertain origin ..

I'm aware that there are other Swallow Yacht designs I have not catered for in this - I've purely gone for the mainstream designs.
If anyone feels I should include the other's (BR17, BR 20 we, Storms) then please get back to me and I will address it for you.

I'll update as soon as I can..

Cheers all .. 

Andy and Equinox

[Graham W]

They'll soon get wise to the fact that the smaller boats often race without water ballast!

How are the maximum displacement numbers calculated?  For a GRP BR20, I'd calculate it at 500kg for the boat (including spars and sails) + 300kg water ballast + a generous 100kg of gear in and out of the lockers + two hefty crew of 100kg each = 1100kg.  The other 290kg?

[Andy Dingle]

Result!
I've been busy. The RYA has sent me an email today with the now official NHC figures for Swallow Yachts for us to report to duty race officers in our clubs across the land.


BayCruiser 26        0.830
BayCruiser 23        0.815
BayRaider Expedition    0.770   
BayRaider 20         0.770

It is important to know that these are 'base' ie starting numbers, they are to be used with the prescribed software that will then change this number dependent upon results submitted - thereby building up a more accurate average over time - the more we race, and submit results the better and more accurate the handicapping will be. So initial discrepancies you may observe will be ironed out. (BR20 and BRe the same?! Really?).
As Graham mentions, the 'smaller' boats (BR's) may race with tanks empty, which actually may have a negative effect as you may win that race on time elapsed and handicap. Submit that result and enjoy the applause, but the next race in heavier wind you will have full tanks, but your new 'adjusted' NHC rating which will then place you further back down the fleet! As always it'll be up to individual skippers to make the call on the day I would imagine.

They have also sent me the calculator (excel) spreadsheet they use to come up with the base numbers but have asked that it is not for public consumption but is for the designer/builders and the class associations to use for new (or not previously reported) boats.
I'll keep a copy on behalf of the association if that is ok with all until we can find a better place to hold it. And of course send it to Matt (and Lara, for safe keeping!).

Graham. I've no idea how the displacement weights are calculated, Matt sent them to me.
I did hear once that there are subtle differences between displacement and true weight, but I heard the words 'fluid mechanics' and 'boolean algebra' mentioned, at which point I repaired to the nearest hostelry. Maybe Dr Peter can help with that one, or ask Matt!

I appreciate not all, probably quite few in fact, are into the more serious racing thing - inded it is new to me (but is addictive!).
But I hope this will be of use to some and I think can only improve our standing against other (and lesser!) sailing classes.

Regards

Andy and Equinox.

PS - For info and some explanation

http://www.rya.org.uk/racing/Pages/nhc.aspx

[dermot]

Interesting to see these figures and the comments about racing with/without ballast.

I raced this year with my father-in-law in my BR20 (Gwennol y Mor) when on holiday on the Isle of Skye, in a regatta staged as part of the highland games, with the sole intention of taking part and having fun.

Racing against a small fleet of cruisers, one 26ft, two around 37ft, we crossed the line 3rd in one race and last in the others. I’m pleased to say the fun objective was more than met, and continued over drams, buns and banter in the clubhouse afterwards. In addition, to our great surprise (and a certain amount of embarrassment), when the figures came out we had won! It all made for a great day, topped off with a presentation ceremony at the highland games the following day, with the largest piece of silverware on the table!

When I later asked about what handicap they had used (I hadn’t given them much time to find a handicap having turned up on the day), they said that after a little research and consultation with the other skippers (after the race but before the results were posted), they agreed on a rate equivalent to a Devon Yawl which had raced at the club previously (CYCA 24.5).

Everyone generously, and in good sport, accepted the result on this basis, but subsequently the organiser heard back from Matt who said the BR20 would be a closer match to a Hawk 20. Running the figures through again with a CYCA of 23 thankfully yielded the same result.

I notice the NHC figures above put the BR20 at 0.770… The figure for the Hawk 20 seems to be 0.835, but not sure what to conclude from that, or how these compare to CYCA handicaps...

Also worth noting I raced without ballast. In the first race the winds were light, but they built slowly through the 3 races and by the end of the 3rd it was up to f4-5 and I was wishing we had ballast in, a reef, or both. Having not been able to point as high as the other boats in any race, by the 3rd we found the the lack of ballast an issue getting through the waves on the upwind legs. However the downwind legs were a scream and according to the GPS on my iphone we peaked at 8.8knots – no doubt a significant factor in the result!

Dermot

[Peter Taylor]

I've no idea how the displacement weights are calculated, Matt sent them to me.
I did hear once that there are subtle differences between displacement and true weight, but I heard the words 'fluid mechanics' and 'boolean algebra' mentioned, at which point I repaired to the nearest hostelry. Maybe Dr Peter can help with that one, or ask Matt!

As far as "Dr Peter" knows displacement and weight are one and the same. Displacement normally refers to the weight of the boat and everything on board. It's called displacement because it is determined by looking at where the water line is on the boat and then calculating the volume of water displaced (which is where all Andy's dreaded maths comes in) and hence the weight of the water which (according to Archimedes) is the total boat's weight.

My guess as to the solution to Graham's discrepancy is that Matt has quoted "Boat Displacement (max)" which I assume is the maximum all up weight of the boat and everything in it allowed under it's EC classification (as shown on the makers plate). So Graham could add another person (or two) and other things some of us consider essential (e.g. fridge!) up to the allowed limit and the boat would still be considered safe under category C conditions. Maybe someone could compare what Matt has quoted to what's on their boat's makers plate?

Peter

[Andy Dingle]

Eureka Peter!

I knew I could rely on you ...

[Andy Dingle]

For info of all but specifically for any who end up organising any racing - eg Swallow Yachts Rallies etc.
The 'prescribed software' I referred to earlier is as follows. It's generally free and is the software recommended by the RYA for use by UK clubs/class associations etc.


www.halsraceresults.com - Windows only (I think). Can be used for NHC, PY and Small Cat Racing. Free, and with useful components that can be used separately.

Dermot. This software can also cater for the CYCA handicapping system 
Quote from the RYA. It can be used for handicap races - using Portsmouth Yardstick, IRC, IRM, Small Cat, SBR, CYCA, ECHO and IHS - as well as non-handicap (level rating) events. Unquote


www.sailwave.com - Windows again but will apparently work on other platforms with suitable emulators.  Good for club and small group racing, model yacht racing.. all sorts. It's free but with proviso's. Loads of features, including automatic downloading of results to RYA.


www.sail100.org  Windows again and appears to be excel based. To me doesn't appear as user friendly as the others. But then I'm a numpty.

Appreciate many may not be too interested and gloss over this info, but it may be of use to someone.

Regards

Andy and Equinox

[Peter Taylor]

I talked to Matt at the Boat Show yesterday and the weights he gave were the maximum that a boat might be carrying rather than the actual weight of any particular boat. They are different from the value on the makers plate because the latter is determined by different rules.

It could be argued that the maximum displacement is a fixed design feature of a boat and therefore a better basis for establishing a handicap compared to the actual weight which will vary with crew number, whether an outboard is carried, etc.

Peter

[Sea Simon]

Result!
I've been busy. The RYA has sent me an email today with the now official NHC figures for Swallow Yachts for us to report to duty race officers in our clubs across the land.


BayCruiser 26        0.830
BayCruiser 23        0.815
BayRaider Expedition    0.770   
BayRaider 20         0.770

Regards
Andy and Equinox.
PS - For info and some explanation

http://www.rya.org.uk/racing/Pages/nhc.aspx

Apologies for resurrecting this old thread, but I beleive it for the best?
Appreciate many folk will be busy at Mylor raid atm.

Question:
I hope to enter my local annual regatta in August, so I'm having to research PY/NHC and Byron handicap numbers.
The local organisers appear to prefer Byron numbers; i have no idea why, and no experience of this handicap system. I have visited the Byron website, but am loathe to dive in unnecessarily. The appear to need a lot of information to make a handicap computation!
Please, has anyone with a BRe or BR appled for a Byron number?

Further to Andy's work above (thank you), I today checked the RYA list of NHC numbers.
No Swallow boats/yachts appear to be listed, as far as I  (please correct me if you see otherwise!) Can see?Why might his be, given the quote above?

Any advice appreciated.

[Peter T]

We use Byron numbers at Lyme Regis Simon.  I am told that they are essentially PY numbers updated by additional information (i.e. their own assessment based on the data provided), or results.  This page helps explain things a little:

http://www.byronsoftware.org/boats/bycorrel.htm

I am currently racing my BRE under a PY number of 1085 (so lower than a BR20) which I think is the figure used at last year's Mylor Raid.

Regards

Peter

[Sea Simon]

Thanks for the info Peter T.

So, what is the Byron number used for a BRe at Lyme Regis (lovely spot by the way, favourite for us when on the Southampton Uni run for a few years!) Please?
I can't see any Swallow boats on the Byron site via your link.

Meanwhile, I have managed to measure up my boat onboard, for the various rig dimensions needed by Byron for data entry.
Probably not entirely accurate, but as the boat was beached, relatively easy.
I also attempted to get measurements for LWL, not easy without levelling the boat, and single handedly too!
Im sure the yard would do much better, but won't push my luck during this particularly busy time, and post-Mylor too.

Perhaps  I'll try a new forum topic for Byron numbers and see if i can raise any general interest?

BTW,  I am advised the move to Byron was due to general widespread dissatisfaction with the RYA NCH system, which consequently appears to have fallen into disuse, at least here in the West?
I have not raced cruisers/keel boats (only dinghies) for several years now, so had not picked up on this.