Author Topic: Do we really need mizzens...  (Read 35106 times)

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Ray S

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Re: Do we really need mizzens...
« Reply #45 on: 13 Jul 2017, 19:29 »
I've only had my BRe just over a year and already I'm finding its rig seems so versatile that I can't imagine going back to a basic sloop rig.  I like the ability to drop the main and continue under jib and mizzen if it blows up or I want to sail along gently on a nice day and eat my sandwiches. I like the ability to keep the mizzen up at anchor so she keeps wind rode. Very nice then to put the canopy up and enjoy the sheltered cockpit. Peter Taylor's great photo of the boats anchored up at St. Anthony's Head from the Mylor 2017 thread clearly shows some of the boats are wondering around their anchors except the two with their mizzens set - wind direction clearly shown by the ensign flying on one of them!  I like the way with the mizzen sheeted in you can roll up the jib and the boat stays nicely into the wind while you get the main up or down or put a reef in. I think the fully battened main of the BRe helps here as you can heave-to head to wind (jibless) without the main flapping about so much.  I like the way in light or heavy airs you can yank the mizzen sheet to pay off if you get in irons.

In the BRe I haven't noticed any backwinding of the mizzen by the mainsail, as described above for a BC20. I think this is because  the BRe seems to have a much shorter main boom, giving a much larger slot.   Another nice feature of the mizzen rig - a short manageable main boom length, easier for reefing etc.

But Wooderz does have a point that we need to ensure the mizzen is setting properly on the beat. I've found it's very easy after a tack to pull the windward mizzen sheet in and forget about the leeward one. The leeward sheet acts like a kicker and has to be pulled in to the power up the mizzen. Equally the leeward sheet can be eased to depower the mizzen if too much weather helm builds up but often the preferred solution is to lift the centerboard up a little to restore a nice balance, especially in a good breeze.

At the Mylor Rally Wooderz also raised the point that one or two of the boats had their masts raked forward of the vertical - I know I need to adjust mine back a bit; but that should be a topic for a separate thread!

Ray S
BRe 047 'Whimbrel'


Ged

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Re: Do we really need mizzens...
« Reply #46 on: 07 Sep 2017, 15:53 »
I found this article about trimming a mizzen.

https://www.skippertips.com/members/477.cfm

'Note how the apparent wind changes direction as it progresses from the headsail back to the mainsail, and then back to the mizzen sail.

Each sail must be trimmed a bit more toward the centerline. By the time the apparent wind arrives at the mizzen sail, you'll need to trim the mizzen boom almost to the centerline! This keeps the boat on her feet and driving ahead like a hot-blooded stallion.'

So it made me wonder whether the general opinion that mizzens are useless when beating is because people have been sailing with the mains over trimmed.
I've been sailing according to this idea and it works very well, it seems that the main acts like a jib to the mizzen. 

The only thing is that on my boat, with the jib drawing nicely and the mizzen in tight I get too much weather helm so I have to ease it quite a bit which I'm sure must affect my pointing.
So I was wondering whether I need a larger jib or a smaller mizzen, what do you think?


Ged
Storm 17 'Peewit'

david

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Re: Do we really need mizzens...
« Reply #47 on: 07 Sep 2017, 16:16 »
Thanks  for the article  Ged. I have  always sailed my Bay raider with the following  trim idea:
Jib - tight
Main - tighter
Mizzen -  tightest.

Which seems  to follow  the advice  in the article .
David

Ex - BR 20 - Nomad

Graham W

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Re: Do we really need mizzens...
« Reply #48 on: 07 Sep 2017, 16:40 »
From the BR20 manual (2010):
"The ketch rig is best sailed with the jib out the most, the main in a little more and the mizzen in the tightest."

If you're sailing with a flying jib on a bowsprit ahead of the self-tacking jib, then that helps counteract some of the weather helm from the sheeted-in mizzen.  I've noticed that the flying jib works better if the self-tacker is sheeted in more than usual.  The main and mizzen seem to continue to work as normal with this arrangement.  However, if you're sailing hard on the wind, the flying jib normally needs furling away (it works best off the wind), in which case you're back to weather helm from the mizzen.

Later BRe's with Mk2 jibs on a bowsprit have a larger foresail area.  Do they experience much weather helm?

There have been a few posts in the past about reefing and/or part furling the mizzen.
Graham
Gunter-rigged GRP BR20 #59 Turaco III

Ged

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Re: Do we really need mizzens...
« Reply #49 on: 08 Sep 2017, 10:41 »
Ah, so it's not just me then.
I think I'll start a separate weather helm thread.
Ged
Storm 17 'Peewit'

Graham W

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Re: Do we really need mizzens...
« Reply #50 on: 08 Sep 2017, 16:12 »
If you have a tired old mizzen going spare and are repeatedly faced with a long beat to windward with heavy weather helm (or a long time on board riding at anchor), you could usefully recycle the old sail by reducing it significantly in size.  Cut off quite a lot of the bottom, put in a cringle at the new clew, slit the luff pocket up the middle and sew in some Velcro straps all the way up.  To install, Velcro the sail around the existing furled full-sized mizzen and rig with the mizzen boom as usual but with some extra string to the new clew cringle.  VoilĂ  - a less powerful and possibly less flappy (when at anchor) mizzen.  You would have to put in seams along the new foot and up each side of the opened up luff pocket. Just a serving suggestion....

If you're a cheapskate and want to read the article that Ged has found but don't want to pay anything, Google "ketch trimming tips".  The article should be the first one on the list and for some reason, this route in is free.  The suggestions about heaving to are interesting.
Graham
Gunter-rigged GRP BR20 #59 Turaco III

Ged

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Re: Do we really need mizzens...
« Reply #51 on: 11 Sep 2017, 09:18 »
I found the article through an image search, I didn't realise the link I posted needed to be paid for.
It's there for free anyway.

I don't have an old mizzen and mine laces onto the mast, I think it would be a good idea to try and reef it to see if it helps with the balance  but I can't think of an easy way, does anybody have an old one that's surplus to requirements?
Ged
Storm 17 'Peewit'

Ged

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Re: Do we really need mizzens...
« Reply #52 on: 11 Sep 2017, 09:51 »
This is another article I've found useful, I don't know if it's been posted on here before... and definitely free this time!

http://www.tor.cc/articles/mizzen.htm
Ged
Storm 17 'Peewit'

Peter Taylor

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Re: Do we really need mizzens...
« Reply #53 on: 23 Aug 2018, 15:56 »
I thought I'd revive this old thread because I recently found what, for me, was a new use for the mizzen!

On the 6th August I was in the western Solent in glassy calm to very light winds. Seatern was doing just over 2 kts over the ground because she was drifting westwards on the ebbing tide.

However in calm conditions, drifting at two kts means that you have 2kts of apparent wind. The problem is, you have no steerage way. However you do have the mizzen to use as a "tail-fin rudder".

I'm not sure how much drive I got from exploiting the apparent wind. However it was enough that, using the mizzen, I was able to steer Seatern so as to at least keep her pointed in the correct direction (i.e. beating) relative to the apparent wind. Since the current was running towards the southwest, and any puffs of "real" wind were from the southwest, I could readily exploit what little wind came along.

And yes, I know you can steer a sloop rig without using a rudder if you get things balanced, but in light winds that's near impossible (at least for my range of skills). Using the mizzen to steer (and with the ballast tanks empty), I was able to keep Seatern ghosting along in otherwise near flat calm conditions.

And using the mizzen gave me something to do!

Peter
Peter Taylor
BayCruiser 20 "Seatern" (009)
http://www.seatern.uk

Julian Swindell

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Re: Do we really need mizzens...
« Reply #54 on: 08 Jan 2019, 20:51 »
First time I have been back on the forum for a long time. Not sure why, but things move on I suppose. I was interested in Peter's revival of this thread, which I started a long time ago. I am a fan of the mizzen, for many of the reasons discussed. My favourite use, apart from just standing at the back and leaning against it on a gentle reach, is getting away from a near shore anchorage single handed. I often anchor just off the beach either inside or outside Poole Harbour. Regardless of wind direction, when I haul up the anchor, the impetuous of pulling in the anchor quickly, which you need to do on your own, seems to set me sailing straight for the beach. I have had near leeshore disasters on several occasions. I've discovered that if I set the main, not too hard, and set the mizzen, pulled right over to the appropriate side, when the anchor comes up, the mizzen stops the boat and then pushes the back around so that the main just catches the wind and sails me off as I clamber back to the cockpit. The tricky bit is judging the "appropriate side" which I always have to think hard about. Get it wrong and you're on the beach. Get it right, and you will have a very smooth departure.
Julian Swindell
BayCruiser 20 Daisy Grace
http://jegsboat.wordpress.com/
Guillemot building blog
https://jegsguillemot.wordpress.com/