Author Topic: Electric Outboards  (Read 42425 times)

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Michael Rogers

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Re: Electric Outboards
« Reply #30 on: 02 Oct 2016, 22:36 »
Let us know if/when you get an answer out of Mr Lehr, and what he says, please Max.

Peter Taylor

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Re: Electric Outboards
« Reply #31 on: 04 Oct 2016, 12:10 »
A question and a possible word of warning with regard to fitting a "sail drive" prop on an outboard for use on one of the smaller Swallow Yachts.

On my BC20 I have a Tohatsu 6hp fitted with a "sail drive" i.e. "high thrust" propeller. I have difficulty in getting the motor to run at a rate which will drive Seatern at less than a knot without the motor stalling. Thus when approaching a jetty or pontoon I have to keep going in and out of gear which is quite difficult. Indeed I've even fitted a "gear lever extension" to help me do it.  The guy who services the motor is adamant that my Tohatsu is running properly. I'm therefore wondering about swapping back to the standard propeller which came with the engine and which, like Andy and Graham, I've kept as a spare. I note that Graham says that his BR20 is driven "at near maximum hull speed at remarkably low revs" ...Graham do you also have trouble going slowly???

My reasoning is that, as I understand it, the sail drive propeller produces more thrust because the blades are angled such for a single rotation more water is sent backwards. This produces more linear force to push the boat along - useful for a ballasted yacht with mast etc. adding to windage - hence "sail drive". However such a propeller requires more torque to turn it ( that's what torque is - a measure of turning force).  But as Rob has said, petrol engines produce most torque at mid to high (but not maximum revs). So to go at slow speeds, by fitting a sail drive prop,  I'm asking my Tohatsu to produce more torque at low revs than it would need to do if working with a standard propeller - and sometimes it stalls.

If you have a bigger Swallow Yacht like a BC23 or BC26 then you need more power to propel it so perhaps, even at slow speeds through the water, your 6hp outboard is working at higher revs and a better position on the engine's torque v power curve.  My BC20 is smaller and lighter (being wood/epoxy and despite the fridge etc.) and has less windage, so a normal prop which runs at higher revs to provide the same thrust and hence maintain the same boat speed, might be a better choice. But I do note Andy's comment about the sail drive being better for reversing out of cul-de-sacs!  I really need to swap my props over and see what happens!

Also, am I right in thinking that the 4/5/6 hp motors are all the same but tuned in different ways? If so it's even possible that a lower hp motor with a sail drive prop might perform better if the tuning results in more torque at lower revs.  There may also be subtle differences between the outwardly identical Mariner, Mercury, and Tohatsu motors in this regard, but I can't find any information. We need a torque v power curve for the motors and a torque v thrust curve for the propellers!

If I'm right about the sail drive prop and 6hp motor perhaps not being the best choice for a 20' Swallow Yacht, there's still a catch 22! If you are buying a new motor and might possibly find you want a sail-drive prop in the future, you can negotiate a much better deal by buying the two together at the outset!

Peter
Peter Taylor
BayCruiser 20 "Seatern" (009)
http://www.seatern.uk

Graham W

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Re: Electric Outboards
« Reply #32 on: 04 Oct 2016, 14:16 »
I note that Graham says that his BR20 is driven "at near maximum hull speed at remarkably low revs" ...Graham do you also have trouble going slowly???

I had trouble with the outboard until this season, when I had it serviced by someone in Cheshire that Matthew recommended.  It would previously suddenly rev up for no apparent reason, especially in neutral.  The problem apparently was something to do with old fuel deposits blocking the carburettor (I think).  Matthew's mechanic has an alleged secret ingredient for sorting the problem out.  Anyway, I've had no trouble since he serviced it and can get it to drive me forward at very slow speeds.  That said, I do tend to go into neutral quite far in advance and just let momentum take me in.

Also, am I right in thinking that the 4/5/6 hp motors are all the same but tuned in different ways?

I think that's correct - maybe the bigger ones have larger carburettor jets but if you took the cowling off a 4hp, 5hp and 6hp I think they'd all look pretty much the same.  Ditto the three different brands. I've heard that the Tohatsu is slightly different to the other two, which are identical to each other.
Graham
Gunter-rigged GRP BR20 #59 Turaco III

michaeln

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Re: Electric Outboards
« Reply #33 on: 04 Oct 2016, 16:21 »
Peter I have a Tohatsu 6hp Sail Pro outboard which has the high thrust sail drive propellor on my BR20 (glass fibre version). I have had no problems with the outboard stalling at low speeds either in neutral or in gear. The only difficulty I have found is starting after a short period of running - starting from cold no problem, starting from warm after 20 minutes or more no problem, but starting from warm after only 10 minutes or less can be temperamental - eventually starts after me losing mine!
Michael

BR20 #32 "Aoife"

Rob Johnstone

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Re: Electric Outboards
« Reply #34 on: 04 Oct 2016, 17:37 »
Like Peter, I find that I have to slip in and out of gear when maneuvering in a tight space, otherwise the speed builds up too quickly, even at tickover. Like Peter, I made a gear lever extension - the result of which was a broken engine gear selector lever (it's only make of plastic after all!)- this required a major engine strip down to replace!

I keep meaning to keep the bucket handy when maneuvering (for use as a hand brake) but always forget.

Incidentally, I think the changes in power of the 4 / 5 / 6 HP engines is achieved by a combination of changes to carburettor jets and engine bore sizes. Those of us who can remember the things, the old BMC Minis had 948 cc and 1098 cc engines (not to mention sliding windows and cables for interior door handles) and (in the Cooper variant) twin carbs... Ah, those were the days when a shower of rain stopped the car in its tracks.......
Rob J
Matt Newland designed but self built 15ft one off - "Lockdown". Ex BC23 #10 "Vagabond" and BC 23 # 54 "Riff Raff"

Andy Dingle

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Re: Electric Outboards
« Reply #35 on: 04 Oct 2016, 19:03 »
Indeed..  I think it is necessary to make active and regular use of the forward and reverse, as well as neutral when manoeuvring in any kind of tight space, or approaching a pontoon, quayside etc. Coasting up to the hard bits in neutral with touches of forward if necessary to keep the boat moving and use of reverse to slow it down and come to a final stop. That worked well enough when I was driving a rhib with twin 200 hp outboards with a morse control as well as my dinky Merc 6 on my BC23.
I have the model with the gear 'lever' on the front of the engine which makes handling so much easier.


Peter - I'd be very interested in your experiments comparing your 'standard' prop against the alleged 'high thrust' one - as I said earlier, my mechanic Mark did say that there probably wasn't a lot between them in forward.
'Equinox' is now out of the sea for this year getting cleaned and prep'd for the winters sailing at Rutland Water, elec trolling motor only there I'm afraid, so can't do any comparison tests myself.
(Totally out of context to this thread but my bottom copper coat investment seems to be paying off...  very pleased with the result when she became reunited with her trailer yesterday).

Peter Taylor

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Re: Electric Outboards
« Reply #36 on: 05 Oct 2016, 14:41 »
I had trouble with the outboard until this season, when I had it serviced by someone in Cheshire that Matthew recommended.  It would previously suddenly rev up for no apparent reason, especially in neutral. 
I think I need Matthew's mechanic since my Tohatsu has that same sudden reving problem too, particularly in neutral

The problem apparently was something to do with old fuel deposits blocking the carburettor (I think).  Matthew's mechanic has an alleged secret ingredient for sorting the problem out.  Anyway, I've had no trouble since he serviced it and can get it to drive me forward at very slow speeds. 
or maybe I need the secret potion! I really struggle to get Seatern to go at less than a couple of knots if the outboard is in gear.

Indeed..  I think it is necessary to make active and regular use of the forward and reverse, as well as neutral ...That worked well enough when I was driving a rib with twin 200 hp outboards with a morse control as well as my dinky Merc 6 on my BC23. I have the model with the gear 'lever' on the front of the engine which makes handling so much easier.
...yes I could do that  forward and reverse stuff driving a powerful rib on an RYA powerboat course but the Tohatsu on Seatern does not (at present) respond so easily!  It does have the gear lever on the front but I have extended it so I can move it while still looking where I'm going. My extension is plastic, a bit bendy, and removable which may have saved me from the fate which Rob describes.  I'll let you know if I get around to swapping the prop however it may happen when I take the motor off to get it serviced, which will be a case of changing too many variables at the same time!

Peter

Peter Taylor
BayCruiser 20 "Seatern" (009)
http://www.seatern.uk

Matthew P

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Re: Electric Outboards
« Reply #37 on: 05 Oct 2016, 22:31 »
On several occasions at sea I've been relieved to have a 6HP saildrive to keep my BR20 moving against wind, wave and tide although the light weight of a smaller motor appeals.  I am a little surprised that the saildrive prop may not give as good low rev control as the standard - mistakenly I thought it had a lower pitch, equivalent to having a low gear on a car or bike (see http://www.tohatsu.com/accessories/prop.asp). My simple logic was the low pitch would give a greater range of revs with good "solid" thrust at lower boat speed but less top-end boat speed. I look forward to Peter's torque-speed investigation.

I share everyone's frustrations with unreliability and low rev-control.  I get my 2009 vintage 6HP Tohatsu serviced every year and try to avoid stale fuel. But this year it started misbehaving - hard to start and poor low rev control.  I thought the problem was solved when my Chester mechanic cleaned out the fuel jet (he uses an ultrasonic cleaner with some magic potion) but although it improved temporarily the motor refused to start a couple of months later on the English raid.  Luckily I found a Scottish mechanic (naturally the best marine engineers in the world) who took it apart and found the float chamber bunged up with jellied fuel.  This was disappointing considering my Cheshire mechanic had it a few months before and fuel does not solidify that quickly.  Yes, I was using fresh fuel between the two mechanics interventions.

Now for a rant.  Why can't small marine outboards be like my Briggs and Stratton lawnmower engine?  Air-cooled, it is utterly reliable despite years of negligent use, is hardly ever serviced and is fed with the stale fuel I have left over each year from my outboard. Quite often it gets stopped suddenly when the blades hit a stone but no harm is done apart from more notches on the blade and my nerves. The whole lawnmower with engine cost about half that of the outboard.  It is a four stroke and I presume it meets similar pollution standards to marine engines. I suppose the outboard has to have extra parts for forward and reverse gears but surely there is a manufacturer somewhere making something equally simple, reliable and cost effective for boats?  Oh for the days for smelly but reliable Seagulls. Rant over.

Finally, I'd better acknowledge Ella's (with I think a 3HP motor) and others kind agreement to tow Gladys on several occasions when I left the Tohatsu at home but felt strangely too tired to row....
 
Matthew
Gladys BR20


"Hilda", CLC Northeast[er], home build, epoxy ply, balanced lug
Previously "Tarika", BR17, yard built, epoxy-ply, gunter rigged
and "Gladys" BR20, GRP, gunter

maxr

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Re: Electric Outboards
« Reply #38 on: 06 Oct 2016, 18:57 »
I you look at the spec of many 4/5/6hp outboards, the cubic capacity is often the same, suggesting it's the same engine, and the 4 and 5 hp variants are detuned.

Some of the posts above make me wonder whether a 3.5hp 4 stroke engine with a high thrust prop (if you can get one to fit a 3.5) might be all that's needed for a BayRaider. If you can do hull speed at low revs with a 5/6hp fitted with a high thrust prop (way below maximum engine output), maybe a 3.5 hp with high thrust prop at the designed max power revs might be enough for any reasonable conditions? I guess the limiting factor in strong tides is hull speed - ie 6 knots tide (!) against 5 knots max hull speed means you're going backwards however much power you have. Presumably high winds on the nose is a different situation as then you can defeat it with more thrust, up to the displacement hull speed. I'm mindful that some folks are running 5/6hp high thrust outboards on heavy 25 foot yachts.

The LEHR agents tell me that the company don't make a high thrust prop for their 5hp propane outboard, but they believe an aftermarket one is available and are checking it out for me - I'll post details when I hear from them.

Jonathan Stuart

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Re: Electric Outboards
« Reply #39 on: 07 Oct 2016, 09:50 »
Yes, 4/5/6hp outboards are the same and it's just the tuning that's adjusted. Similarly, with, say, Mariner's smaller outboards the 2.5hp is the same as the 3.5hp.

Be careful with some 3.5hp outboards. These don't have reverse but now commonly have a "wing" on the leg (see attached photo) that prevents the motor from turning more than 90 degrees in the BR's outboard well. It's not the end of the world but it's a pain you won't want to live with. I discovered this during my first season with my BRe when I had a Mariner 3.3hp two stroke and I discovered in Mylor marina that I couldn't spin it to reverse. I lived a week like that but that's what made me buy a Suzuki 2.5hp, because that can spin freely.

You mention hull speed. The BR has a very "slippery hull" and takes very little to drive it. So unless I might have to push in to a tide running faster than the motor can drive the boat then I'd still buy 2.5hp again. I had a test sail on a BC23 the other day and was surprised how noisy the 6hp motor is, and the 2.5hp is so light to lift on and off the boat and doesn't suffer from the stalling, etc, mentioned earlier. Having said that, I know lots of people can't live without a reverse. I like that I can spin the motor in a split second to drive the stern wherever I want it to go and it makes the boat really maneuverable, but each to their own! FYI, when the winds failed earlier this year I motored my BRe loaded with ballast and camping gear from a couple of miles outside Weymouth to Poole, which is something over 20NMs, using the 2.5hp and it was fine.

Buy a 4/5/6hp with or without a high thrust prop and you won't go wrong; you can be confident you have far more power than you'll need for a BR and can handle almost anything. If you fancy something small, light and quieter and can live with a max speed of just under 5 knots then I'd get a 2.5hp on a BR.
Jonathan

Ex - BayCruiser 26 #11 "Bagpuss"
Ex - BayRaider Expedition #3 "Mallory"

Peter Cockerton

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Re: Electric Outboards
« Reply #40 on: 07 Oct 2016, 14:34 »

Now for a rant.  Why can't small marine outboards be like my Briggs and Stratton lawnmower engine?  Air-cooled, it is utterly reliable despite years of negligent use, is hardly ever serviced and is fed with the stale fuel I have left over each year from my outboard. Quite often it gets stopped suddenly when the blades hit a stone but no harm is done apart from more notches on the blade and my nerves. The whole lawnmower with engine cost about half that of the outboard.  It is a four stroke and I presume it meets similar pollution standards to marine engines. I suppose the outboard has to have extra parts for forward and reverse gears but surely there is a manufacturer somewhere making something equally simple, reliable and cost effective for boats?  Oh for the days for smelly but reliable Seagulls. Rant over.

 
Matthew
Gladys BR20


Mathew

Thought you may want to look at this outboard i found advertised on Ebay

Briggs and Stratton outboard, with yes, a lawnmower engine


http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/outboard-engine-/142135047258?hash=item2117e8b45a:g:-yAAAOSwLnBX73t-

Hi
This is a 3.5 hp Briggs&Stratton outboard air cooled with a Short shaft
It is in working order and has new engine oil and plug and prop oil ready to go
This engine is the same as the Briggs & Stratton lawnmower engine
So they are easy to maintain and replace if ever you need too
This one is a 2002 model
It's been sitting around a bit but took it to Shoreham harbour and ran a full tank of fuel through it and it ran fine

Peter
Bayraider 20 mk2
Larger jib set on bowsprit with AeroLuff spar
USA rig
Carbon Fibre main boom with sail stack pack
Epropulsion Spirit Plus Outboard

Matthew P

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Re: Electric Outboards
« Reply #41 on: 08 Oct 2016, 11:38 »
Thought you may want to look at this outboard i found advertised on Ebay
Briggs and Stratton outboard, with yes, a lawnmower engine
Peter

Thanks Peter. After your prompt I looked up reviews for B&S outboards.  Reviews are mixed - noisy (to be expected), heavy vibration (expected but not welcome), probably not salt water resistant, although this seems to be a problem with the drive shaft and tube, not the motor, and small rev range BUT inexpensive and reliable.  I was tempted by the Ebay one for brief occasional use to get me in and out of marinas but it had a short shaft and sold for £128 which is more than the £50 I might have considered!

So, for now I will continue with my 6HP Tohatsu (thoroughly serviced) for serious
sea use and a big Canadian canoe paddle for close-manoeuvring in marinas.

Matthew
Gladys BR20

 
"Hilda", CLC Northeast[er], home build, epoxy ply, balanced lug
Previously "Tarika", BR17, yard built, epoxy-ply, gunter rigged
and "Gladys" BR20, GRP, gunter

Graham W

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Re: Electric Outboards
« Reply #42 on: 28 Oct 2016, 22:10 »
I couldn't find mention on the forum of this lot, who appear to be manufacturing a spookily-similar Torqeedo look-alike http://www.epropulsion.hk/spirit-1-0/.  Hopefully, it'll provide some much-needed competition in this market segment.  However, they don't seem to have very good distribution and some of the European distributors that they list don't return the compliment on their own websites.  I'm wondering if there are legal issues over patents that are preventing better distribution.  As far as I can tell, they're not in the UK or US at all.
Graham
Gunter-rigged GRP BR20 #59 Turaco III

Michael Rogers

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Re: Electric Outboards
« Reply #43 on: 29 Oct 2016, 10:53 »
A swish website with very little detail. And I noted, like you, Graham, no UK distribution as yet.

If their OBs are going to do what a Torqeedo does, I suppose they'll look like a Torqeedo. I wonder whether this is all like Festool and their plunge cutters and Dyson and his bag-less cleaners - patents have to run out before others can join in: and then prices, in theory, should tumble. Huh, believe that when it happens.

I've signed up for their newsletter, whatever that amounts to.

On a much lighter note around OBs, small grandchildren staying resulted in seeing "The Rescuers" again, and enjoying the character Evinrude. Great fun!

maxr

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Re: Electric Outboards
« Reply #44 on: 29 Oct 2016, 14:23 »
For anyone considering a propane outbooard - there are US Forums with discussions of comparative reliability. Apparently Lehr had a teething problem with sticky throttles which is an easy fix, and there are one or two other minor issues like any engine. Most interesting, though, was a guy who has 3 x 5hp Lehrs, all of which had 450-500 hours running (fishing motors?) whn he posted in 2013. He reckoned they had minor issues, but nothing like the amount he was spending on replacing fuel system parts on petrol motors:

http://forums.sailboatowners.com/index.php?threads/first-problem-with-lehr-outboard.153709/

Still no word from the Lehr distributor I contacted on saildrive props for their engines. You'll see from the US forum that they seem to think Lehr propane motors are one of the big Japanese or Chinese brands (nobody seems sure which) with a propane conversion. If true, that would suggest finding a Saildrive prop to fit is probably not a problem.