What's that knot called?

[markbatey]

The previous owner of my BR17 had replaced the rope strops at the bottom of the stays with metal things. I'd like to get back to the original setup, but I don't know how to tie the knot, and I don't know what the knot is called to look it up. Anyone know it's correct name?

[Peter Cockerton]

Mark

I changed my stay fixings to the " metal things" which are probably bottlescrews two seasons for reasons i thought reasonable but recently i have gone back to rope strops.
In the BR20 manual it only refers to having at least 4 loops between the chain plate and the stays.

Looking carefully at the image in the manual the strop is tied initially to the stay, i used a bowline for this. I then looped the rope 4 times between the stay and the shackle on the chain plate. On the final wrap on the shackle on the chain plate i took the end of the rope half way up the loops and the started wrapping the line around the loops four times i think. On the final loop which ends up by the shackle i lifted the 4 wraps slightly with some long nose pliers and pulled the end of the line under the wraps to effectively splice the end. You can then tighten the loops by using smoothing action with your fingers whilst pulling the end byte of the rope. Finish with a couple of hitches around the wraps.

This was my method, if anyone else has something better i wouldn't mind reading it myself, mine have held without coming loose for several trips now.

If you measure the distance before you remove the bottlescrews you can get the rope loops correct.

Peter Cockerton

[David Hudson]

Drifting slightly, I was interested to hear that Mark and Peter both tried chainplates or bottle screws but have reverted to cordage.

My preference would be for chainplates, allowing consistent rig setup each time I step my mast.

Why?

[Julian Swindell]

The metal thingies are bottle screws and I think most people get rid of them on Bayraiders/cruisers. They are more used on high performance or heavy systems and can lead to over tightening on our type of boats. They can also be a real nuisance if you are raising/lowering your mast much, as they can get jammed  easily and can get bent if you don't notice. Lashings are much simpler and more fool proof. I just make about four loops, after tying the end to the stay, and then tie two or three half hitches around the bundle. The loose end of the line is then just woven a couple of times through the loops to stop it undoing. There is so much friction in it that there is no chance of it undoing if the end is secured like that. At the end of the season, I undo the shackle, after the mast is lowered and leave the loops tied. That way the stays are just the right length when I put it all back together again. Lashings are also easy to adjust to get your mast vertical. Just slack one side off a bit and tighten up the other until all looks right.

[Ian Loveday]

I took the same approach as Julian and used 4 or 5 half hitches and nothing has slipped since.  The Bayraider doesn't need the sort of rig tension that other designs do and with my previous boat the bottle screws seemed to get bent every time put the mast up.

[markbatey]

That sounds fairly straightforward, thanks for the suggestions. I'll give it a go. My metal things are two strips of stainless with lots of holes punched in them - they look a bit out of place I think. This will look nicer and probably rattle less when the stay is unloaded on the leeward side. Thanks for the swift help!

Mark

[Peter Cockerton]

Drifting slightly, I was interested to hear that Mark and Peter both tried chainplates or bottle screws but have reverted to cordage.

My preference would be for chainplates, allowing consistent rig setup each time I step my mast.

Why?

David

I changed to bottle screws initially for a couple reasons, one being as you mentioned consistent rig setup, another being low maintenance, i was concerned about the cord chaffing and me being the unobservant type not noticing. I had no trouble with the bottle screws over dozens of trips some in very strong winds, losing split rings on the pins is another matter though, ( numerous posts on the forum about that one)

The main reason for changing back was releasing the stays under some sort of mast failure, i either carried cutters for the stays or just cut the strops with a knife. The knife is always carried so no contest.

Peter Cockerton

[Graham W]

I've been paranoid about my shroud fastenings since one of my shackles came undone and the mast went over the side.  I've never seen any chafe on the lashings, which I inspect regularly. Lightweight, cheap, easy to adjust, what's not to like?

There was a suggestion in 2009 (in relation to Drascombes) that a 6:1 block arrangement could be used (to make adjustment easier) instead of a simple lashing for the shroud.  A Drascombe Coaster owner tried this but it all went disastrously wrong when one of the steel fittings failed and the boat turned turtle.  I see that the suggestion has since been withdrawn.

Like Julian, I take a lot of time and trouble to get the lashings right at the beginning of the season and once I am happy, I leave them alone.  If I need to detach the shrouds for any reason, I undo the bottom shackle but leave the lashings tied in place.

There's a photo of a shroud lashing on page 14 of the BayRaider owner's manual, which can be found in the library. Of course, the knot(s) are out of sight on the other side of the lashing.

[Michael Rogers]

A plug for the buntline hitch instead of a bowline, in this and similar applications. It's easier to tie (I find, anyway!), can be slipped up against whatever the rope or line is being tied to and thereafter doesn't slip, is neat and compact, and quite easy to untie if necessary. An underrated knot IMHO.

[markbatey]

Sort of a running clove hitch then? Very neat, good tip, I hadn't come across that one.

[Tony]

Just back from the BoatShow  and from the English Braids oddments bin (from where I had to be evicted at closing time) to find folk talking about KNOTS !
Good-Oh!  My favourite topic.....er....after beer....and food... and ...   well, let’s just say it’s amongst my favourite topics.
Graham’s objection to a bowline for this job is probably valid as they come undone if you wiggle them about a bit. The buntline won’t. It’s a sliding knot and all the thrashing around only tightens it – that’s why they used it for  buntlines,  innit!
However, if you use dynema  for your lashings (...and why wouldn’t you – strong as steel wire ) even the buntline will slip.
Try a “double” bowline (twice round the tree before you go down the hole) or lock off the buntline by taking the end up through the loop the knot is making and threading it down through the “clovehitch” loops, parallel to the standing part. These knots won’t slip but once you’ve loaded them up you’ll need a spike (or a sharp) knife to undo them.  Not a problem for the fixed end of a shroud lashing. 

[Michael Rogers]

I'll try the locked off BH: thanks, Tony.

It's not relevant to fastening shrouds, but while on knots I can't resist a mention of, I think, the most elegantly simple and 'intellectual' knot of all - the constrictor knot (again a relative of the clove hitch). I believe that, unlike most knots which sort of happened over the centuries, the CK was actually 'invented' by someone. Does anyone know if that's true? If so, he was a genius.

[Graham W]

According to Grog Knots "Howard Taylor, a veterinary surgeon in Salisbury, England pioneered the use of the Constrictor knot to ligate the uterine pedicle in a canine hysterectomy". Sounds painful.

[Peter Taylor]

I'm using dyneema lashings on the shrouds but the forestay (which I have to undo twice on every trip to get under a bridge) is fastened with a snap shackle and tightened with a bottle screw (both chosen with regard to Matts breaking load specs). While sailing the jib halyard takes most of the tension anyway.

Rather than a bowline, cavers (and I suspect rock climbers) use a double figure of eight knot to form a loop. Apparently the bowline can cause the rope to fail under sudden tightening (as in a fall). Also as noted earlier, the bowline is only secure when under tension -  unless you lock it with an overhand knot or similar.

Peter

[Tony]

Bottlescrews?
Forsooth!
Give 'em the deadeye!

(Not exactly quick release for trailer sailing, though.)