Author Topic: Flying Jib - or How to Turbo Charge your Bayraider!  (Read 11133 times)

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Andy Dingle

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At long last I now have had the opportunity to rig and sail my new flying jib for my Bayraider 20 (WE).

The idea stemmed from my efforts in rigging and sailing my Asymmetric spinnaker, which were quite successful and I was very pleased with the results. However, it occurred to me that although the spinnaker was great fun, it did involve a degree of manpower in the form of a reasonably strong crew to tame the beast.
Like most, I imagine, I am a bit of a 'billy-no-crew' when it comes to sailing, with 'er in doors finding a myriad of excuses not to join in and when looking around at any of my acquaintances I find they all have their own boats (strange that!) and are also looking for crew ..!
A furling Asymmetric or even a snuffer all still required a degree of man handling so they were disregarded.

An article on the Association website gave me the idea of a furlable flying jib. (Thanks Graham).
The main criteria was that it had to be easily launched and recovered (furled) and that it had to be flown from the retractable CF spinnaker pole (for trailing purposes). I did not want to dispense with my Asymmetric for good, so there had to be a system where either could be flown relatively easily. And all set up so I could change from one to another within the boat whilst at sea.

Graham very kindly sent me all the information he had on his flying jib, which I believe was provided by Matt (?).

I then went to my sailmaker with all the information I had. We measured the boat and took sheeting angles, after some discussion I asked for something a bit larger than Graham's, and with some roach to give some curve (or belly) for additional power. The resulting sail was eventually modified from a Drascombe Lugger flying jib design. I also asked for a wire luff rope to aid furling and to give it additional strength.

Standard Barton furlers - same as on the standard jib - were purchased and fitted. The top furler is fitted to the spinnaker halyard using a carabiner clip so it can be easily undone and the Asymmetric substituted if required.
The drum furler was more complicated, at first it too was fitted with a snap on hook, but that proved too loose for effective furling. I eventually fitted it with a shackle secured to the spinnaker pole using the bobstay rope, and using an old part of a dinghy forestay attachment to prevent it from twisting when being furled/unfurled. I found too that the angles for the furling string were quite crucial to prevent the string from bunching up and jamming. I can shackle on a block to this for the Asymmetric tack.
I used the sheets that came with the Asymmetric and these are controlled using Barton K cleats (midi) leading back to behind the rowlock position - some work is required to get the exact positioning right as I found they didn't lie in a comfortable, easily managed position.

The furling string is led right back to the helm position, through a fairlead on the spinnaker pole over the bow and down the starboard side of the boat. Apart from getting the angle to the furling drum right, there has been no problems so far.


I was fortunate enough to have had a really good day to try this all out. Wind was SW F2 - 4. Bright and sunny. Sailing single handed and with the ballast tank empty. I was accompanied by Peter Cockerton sailing his own BR (ably crewed by his Pointer dog Scooby!) to bounce ideas off and take photographs (Peter, that is, not Scooby).

When clear of land and other sailors I pointed up into a close reach and unfurled the flying jib. Initially she failed to unfurl completely, the string in the drum had bunched and jammed, some refurling and unfurling cleared that and she opened up nicely. (This was later corrected by changing the angle of the string into the drum). I was very impressed with how the sail lay, (see photo's), easing off onto a broad reach she really came into her own - and flew! The additional power was very evident, and altogether a different sailing experience, It felt (which, of course, it was) pulling from the front. My boat certainly felt she had a new lease of life! I experimented with different points of sail and was pleasantly pleased with her at all angles to the wind.
Then it came to putting a tack in. BR owners will know that tacking a BR is just a matter of putting the helm over, suddenly I had to remember that I had (new) jib sheets to contend with! After a bit of embarrassing floundering around and flogging of the new sail, she settled onto the new tack and I sheeted in, everything quietened down and off we went again.
I practised tacking and gybing and found no problems at all, the sail slipped round the front of the standard jib very easily. (One of the pictures in fact shows me tacking).

I experimented with both jibs, then one or the other, or neither, which was very satisfying. As the wind increased up to about a F4 on a close reach, I found the boat behaved beautifully, in the stronger wind I could point up higher - and higher! It was amazing to see the standard jib and the main both start to luff but the flying jib continued pulling like a train!

The flying jib is of no use for pointing hard (close haul). For that just furl it in and use the standard jib, which is cut a lot flatter. But for a close reach and anything down from that she is a delight. I found that to make effective use of her it is necessary to sheet in the standard jib, I imagine it's to do with slot effects etc?  Whether or not it was just my enthusiasm but I also felt the Main responded in a better way too? Those with more knowledge than me may be able to comment on this.
Of course, you must remember that you have additional power and therefore your sailing style has to be modified to take this into consideration - I did spend a lot of time with the gun'lls under water! More of my own volition (because it was fun!). At no time did my BR feel out of control. Sheeting out the Main gently bought her back on her legs again... and I've every confidence in further experiments in stronger wind.



Some issues I found were that the CF spinnaker pole is quite flexible - Of course this effects the tension on the luff of the flying jib, although she was tamed by the bob stay. I am considering a wire bob stay to firm it off even more. Lateral pull was evident, but I imagine this does help spill some wind when it gets blowy? I suppose a 'plank' bow sprit is the solution but as I said I wanted a retractable and easily launched 'bow sprit' and the spin pole as fitted is just the job.
The sheet cam cleats need to be changed to a better position. I struggled single handed to cleat them off, especially when the boat was heeling.
I definitely now need a tiller tamer of some description! (Any suggestions?). Trying to sort everything out and keep hold of the tiller was 'challenging' as they say these days!


All in all, considering I went into this quite blind as to the outcome I am very, very pleased. (Not to mention relieved!).
My BR behaves as if she was designed for this - but bearing in mind she IS designed to fly the Asymmetric, then it's no great surprise she can handle the flying jib. I would certainly recommend this modification to anyone who wants that little bit extra.
Oh, and by the way, I think it makes the BR look even more stunning with a 'cutter' style rig!

Sail Maker was Dan at www.sailregister.com. Barton bits etc all off ebay.



Regards, and I hope you found some of this interesting.


Andy and 'Psalter' - both feeling as pleased as punch!


Graham W

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Re: Flying Jib - or How to Turbo Charge your Bayraider!
« Reply #1 on: 25 Jul 2013, 19:54 »
Andy,

I'm glad that it's all worked out well.

I've been flying mine from a plank bowsprit off Corfu in fairly feeble winds today and as you say, it feels like you're being pulled along from the front.  I was doing 3 knots in less than 6 knots of apparent wind.  It performs very well at 60 degrees apparent and more but is not much use close hauled.  I think it is particularly useful at sea, where less tacking is required but even that task is not too difficult.  Instead of furling, I have mine on a adjustable tack line through the now redundant spinnaker pole tube.  To bring it in, I let go the tack line, then let go the halyard while hauling in on the lee sheet.

I still haven't got any photos but will post some in due course.

You definitely need a tiller lock for all this extra activity.  I've posted an article to the library about making your own, which in my opinion performs much better than any shop-bought version. 
Graham
Gunter-rigged GRP BR20 #59 Turaco III

Graham W

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Re: Flying Jib - or How to Turbo Charge your Bayraider!
« Reply #2 on: 13 Aug 2013, 11:46 »
Here are a couple of photos - on the port tack we were doing four + knots in 8-9 knots apparent at an angle to the wind of about 60 degrees apparent.
Graham
Gunter-rigged GRP BR20 #59 Turaco III

Andy Dingle

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Re: Flying Jib - or How to Turbo Charge your Bayraider!
« Reply #3 on: 13 Aug 2013, 14:43 »
Thanks for the pictures Graham.... She certainly looks lovely flying that jib - not to mention that sea ...!
It never ceases to amaze me how much controllable power this extra jib gives.

Using my design concept (!) of interchangeability with a spinnaker (ie carabiner clip and shackle!) to quickly detach it I was able to transfer mine onto Peter Cockerton's BR last week in a very healthy 4, probably pushing 5's. I'm sure I saw 'Joybells' break out into a sweat as she lifted her skirts in a most undignified manner and positively flew!

I really cannot recommend this mod enough for anyone who wants to tweak up their Bayraider.

Regards

Andy


Graham W

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Re: Flying Jib - or How to Turbo Charge your Bayraider!
« Reply #4 on: 15 Mar 2015, 21:20 »
Quite an old thread but it's worth posting an update.

Like Andy, I thoroughly recommend the use of a flying jib.  I have now settled on the best way of using it solo as a cruising sail or even racing in limited circumstances:
-  I have reverted to the self-tacking jib when sailing solo with the flying jib, as trying to tack with two sets of flailing sheets is just too complicated
-  The flying jib is flown off the end of a plank bowsprit rather than the spinnaker pole, which I no longer use
-  The flying jib is on a standard Barton furling drum and swivel and has had a wire luff sewn into it to aid furling.  The furling drum control line comes through the old spinnaker pole tube in the bow to a cleat on top of the centreboard case. 
-  The flying jib sheets are led back to the horizontal sheaves that used to be used for the self-tacking jib sheets, under the oarlock bases amidships.  I have new fairleads and camcleats much further forward for the self-tacking jib sheets.
-  The flying jib halyard runs through a single block attached to a halyard crane at the top of the mast.  As I have gunter rig, the crane is necessary to stop the flying jib swivel interfering with the self-tacking jib.  If you have a one-piece mast, this won't be necessary as the top block can be attached further up the mast.

I can operate the whole lot from the tiller, which makes life easy.  That in turn means that as soon as the wind is suitable, I can unfurl (and later furl) the flying jib and also tack both jibs without breaking sweat.  So in light to moderate winds (up to F4 apparent) on the beam, forward to about 60° apparent, I use it a lot when solo and it really makes a difference. 

I like the old-fashioned idea of having several (up to five at once) small and easily-managed sails rather than two really big ones.  Perhaps not the fastest way of increasing sail area and usually not much use when racing but excellent for cruising at sea when short tacking is often less of an issue.
Graham
Gunter-rigged GRP BR20 #59 Turaco III

Matthew P

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Re: Flying Jib - or How to Turbo Charge your Bayraider!
« Reply #5 on: 15 Mar 2015, 21:36 »
Thanks Graham for your open explanation.

Why have you replaced the spinnaker pole with a plank bowsprit please?  And could you provide a sketch or photo of the plank showing dimensions and how it is attached to the foredeck as well as details of how it fits in around the stem head fittings?

Also, could you show details of the masthead crane?

Thanks

Matthew
BR20 Gladys
"Hilda", CLC Northeast[er], home build, epoxy ply, balanced lug
Previously "Tarika", BR17, yard built, epoxy-ply, gunter rigged
and "Gladys" BR20, GRP, gunter

Graham W

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Re: Flying Jib - or How to Turbo Charge your Bayraider!
« Reply #6 on: 15 Mar 2015, 22:24 »
Matthew,

I prefer the plank bowsprit when cruising because although it takes longer to set up, it is more solid, doesn't protrude into the cockpit when not in use and the flying jib can be left furled overnight (in good weather) ready for use the next day.  In other words, it's great for a couple of weeks on the Med but not so convenient for day sailing on Lake Bala! Or on any other lakes (or lochs) where the wind is mostly on the nose or directly aft.

The plank bowsprit (yard produced) looks like an elongated tuning fork with the tines facing aft.  It is secured at the aft end by an M10 bolt through a new stout wooden anchor point on the foredeck. It slips over the existing steel fittings at the top of the stemhead and is then held down at the forward end by a wire bobstay (or two) running back down to the winching eye. The bow fairleads have been relocated slightly, otherwise they would be in the way.  I don't have overall dimensions to hand but I think it protrudes beyond the bow by the same amount that the carbon spinnaker pole does when fully extended.  The photo below if the best that I can find of it in action.

For discussion of the masthead crane, see from this posting onwards http://www.swallowyachtsassociation.org/smf/index.php/topic,721.msg5265.html#msg5265  Note the warning about possible weakness in the original metal fitting. The attached photo is of the crane on the masthead before I heavily reinforced the arms with sleeves of stainless tubing. Also attached is a telephoto shot of the masthead with the whole thing in action.

Graham
Gunter-rigged GRP BR20 #59 Turaco III

Graham W

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Re: Flying Jib - or How to Turbo Charge your Bayraider!
« Reply #7 on: 15 Mar 2015, 23:09 »
The flying jib thing started with an old photo of a Drascombe http://www.swallowyachtsassociation.org/smf/index.php/topic,459.0.html

The second post in that thread has a photo of a plank bowsprit on a BRe.

The third post appears to be from an afficionado of exotic cheroots with a get-rich-quick scheme to sell.

If you get past that one, there's an interesting post from Andrew Denman in Australia with photos of multiple uses for plank bowsprits.  They secure the aft of their version differently to here in the UK.
Graham
Gunter-rigged GRP BR20 #59 Turaco III

Andy Dingle

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Re: Flying Jib - or How to Turbo Charge your Bayraider!
« Reply #8 on: 16 Mar 2015, 10:51 »

On my original set up for the flying jib on my BR I never could get over the problems of the CF spinnaker pole being too flexible, I eventually gave up on it and found a solid piece of 38 mm oak that fitted the spinnaker pole hole in the boat. I had made a stainless fitting on the end to take the furler, a stainless bob stay and lateral supports. The lateral supports was not really that necessary but it did help
I also found that by putting in a block further up the gun'nls on the bow to get the sheeting angle just right really finished the job off perfectly.
As I said in a previous post it was probably the best mod I ever did on on my BR. Sadly no longer mine anymore. But am looking to do similar, (maybe a code zero) on my Baycruiser now.

Picture of fitting attached.

Incidentally, my now redundant CF spin pole was cut up, the 'thinner' end used to insert into the CF Gaff 'top spar' to stiffen it up, preventing the drop off in strong wind, which used to open the mainsail leach, causing it to flutter. This worked quite well, though never did eliminate it completely.

david

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Re: Flying Jib - or How to Turbo Charge your Bayraider!
« Reply #9 on: 17 Mar 2015, 01:09 »
Andy, love the mod.. Cool stainless work. You are talented. I have to ask what winds were you in that made the sail flutter? I have not experienced that. Did they make the gaff's stiffer on the latter models? (Hmmm, that does not sound quite right!). Sorry, not sure how else to ask the question.

David

Ex - BR 20 - Nomad

Andy Dingle

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Re: Flying Jib - or How to Turbo Charge your Bayraider!
« Reply #10 on: 18 Mar 2015, 07:16 »
David,

I can't take credit for the metal work, it was made up by an apprentice at my friends engineering workshop, to my fairly basic design, he would only take a few bob for a drink for his efforts too...

I believe the gaff spar is a lot stiffer in more recent boats, you can buy a stiffer windsurfer mast to replace the spar, but they are very expensive, unless you can pick up a scond hand one. There is loads of discussion on this forum about this topic.
The top third of the leach would flutter from about a three, then increase as the wind increased. To be honest, it really probably wasn't that much of an issue, and I doubt if it affected performance that much.
I did experiment with making a wood spar, too heavy, then a bamboo spar (!) very light and stiff but very difficult to work with. It was then I made the decision to use the now 'redundant' CF spin pole and cut it up to insert into the gaff spar, which worked quite well, making it as stiff as it ever would be. I also put the main halyard straight through the spar so it would pull up tight to the top of the mast, as opposed to looping around a cleat. Again lots more on this on the forum from years back..
Hope this helps..

Incidentally, my new boat, which has all dynema stays starts to sing to herself in about a four/five upwards! Has me looking around to see if I have picked up some busty siren from the deeps, luring me into the nearest hostellry.. but no such luck, just Equinox whistling happily as she goes about her business on the waves...

Regards

Andy
Baycruiser 23 No.25 'Equinox'