Author Topic: Stoves  (Read 9765 times)

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Matthew P

Re: Stoves
« Reply #15 on: 30 Mar 2016, 09:19 »
Sorry to disappoint you Graham, almost a Trangia but not quite. In his book The Dinghy Cruising Companion, Roger Barnes describes his stove as a Swedish single-burner alcohol stove made of stainless steal and the accompanying photo looks like an Origo 1500. 

Your mention of "Bully Barnes" success at attracting and retaining crew (despite exposing them to wave, wind, rain and confrontations with the SBS) to his cooking.  Which is why I propose to start a thread "What to Cook" in the hope that it will inspire contributions to extend my culinary efforts between Mars bars, hot and cold and potentially, tins of curry.

Matthew
BR20 Gladys   

Graham W

Re: Stoves
« Reply #16 on: 23 Nov 2016, 20:39 »
Here's an interesting set of articles on stoves and their fuels from Ekofuel, a supplier of bio ethanol products, touted as a clean replacement for meths http://www.ekofuel.org/blog/

Quite a few of Ekofuel's products are out of stock.  I'm not sure if this is because they are struggling to keep up with demand or just struggling.  They have a marine range targeted at Origo owners that is not currently available.  The range for Trangia-type burners is only available in 0.5l bottles.

Bio ethanol seems to have plenty in its favour compared to meths, except price - it is at least 50% more expensive per litre.
Graham
GRP BR20 #59 Turaco III

maxr

Re: Stoves
« Reply #17 on: 23 Nov 2016, 21:35 »
Jonathan Stuart said:

'...I've never known a self-sealing can to leak'

I read a saga in the last few months (I think in a UK yachting comic) about a chap with a disposable gas canister stove on a small yacht. He dutifully read the instructions (!), which said something like 'Remove gas canister when not in us for more than a short period'. He was about to leave his boat for a while, so he took the canister out to discover it then leaked. From memory, he reinstalled it, but it continued to leak round the connection point. At this stage he couldn't leave it in the cabin, he couldn't leave it in the cockpit (non self draining), and heaving it over the side was not an option for obvious reasons. I forget what he did with it, but even as an isolated event, it put me off disposable gas canisters. How do 'solid alcohol' tablets perform?

Graham W

Re: Stoves
« Reply #18 on: 23 Nov 2016, 23:08 »
How do 'solid alcohol' tablets perform?

I haven't tried them but they seem to get a good press in terms of energy intensity, clean burn etc.  Apparently they are used by the army, particularly on special ops.  The bean-counter in me had to calculate relative costs of boiling a litre of water.  I reckon that for the tablets it's in the region of 70p, while bio ethanol is about 12p.  This probably explains why hexamine is more used in special situations than for everyday camping.
Graham
GRP BR20 #59 Turaco III

Graham W

Re: Stoves
« Reply #19 on: 24 Nov 2016, 09:26 »
Deep within the Ekofuel blog (on page 2 near the bottom), they make this misleading marketing statement:
 
"As you may be aware methylated spirit, the traditionally used fuel for alcohol camping stoves in the UK has been outlawed by European legislation as at July 2013. It was deemed unsafe because of its high methanol content, which was in the recipe as the denaturant to ensure the alcohol was unfit for human consumption."

In fact what happened was a change in the formulation to a new pan-European standard, with methanol removed and other denaturants substituted.  UK "Meths" still exists in its smelly purple-coloured form, is still cheap and still works in alcohol stoves.  It is just different to how it used to be in a way that most people wouldn't notice.
Graham
GRP BR20 #59 Turaco III

Peter Taylor

Re: Stoves
« Reply #20 on: 26 Nov 2016, 11:40 »
I bought 20L of "Odourless bioethanol fuel" from http://www.contemporaryelements.co.uk/ (splitting the purchase with a neighbour) and it's so much better than meths I don't mind the extra cost.  However I keep thinking of getting rid of my Origo stove and using a flat butane one (of the type designed for indoor use).

With regard to self-sealing butane canisters, I've used a huge number of them since I use them to heat Seatern during the winter. One can heats Seatern for the evening and for a short time the following morning.  I'm constantly taking them in and out of the stove and I've never known one leak. I use A4 Butane Battery bought from JFA/Bright Spark in boxes of 28 because they contain a propane/butane mix - better for winter.  But if one did leak you could empty it in the open air simply by pressing down the top nozzle (holding the can in a glove - it would get very cold!).

Peter

p.s. no, the fumes/water vapour from the butane don't enter the cabin - I use a pan2000 heater which vents through a chimney in the cabin roof!
Peter Taylor
BayCruiser 20 "Seatern" (009)
http://www.seatern.uk

Reg Barker

Re: Stoves
« Reply #21 on: 27 Nov 2016, 16:07 »
My stove is a Dometic, Origo 1500. It is housed in a box which straddles the thwart with lugs so it cannot move but the cooker can swing on its gimbal. See picture. I used it for two weeks on our Scottish trip. The down side was that it impeded access to the lockers, especially if we neglected some essential ingredients or cooking implement. Stowage was awkward as I had to place it in the  cabin when not in use. I now intend to fit the cooker into a locker but it will also still be removable if necessary. We also seemed to be shoving a lot of Meths into it, but at the end of the trip I had quite a few bottles left over: panic buying may been the cause of this. So I have not got a clue as to the consumption; therefore it wasn't that bad.
BRe #11 Alice Amy

Graham W

Re: Stoves
« Reply #22 on: 12 Dec 2016, 16:09 »
Here's a comprehensive website on stoves, with a bias towards the alcohol-fuelled type but including discussion of every other kind http://zenstoves.net.  It includes instructions on how to make your own ultralight stoves out of drink cans.  This may sound somewhat eccentric but apparently some types are more efficient at heating with alcohol fuel than the standard Trangia type.  In particular the Penny Stove is nearly twice as fast at boiling water http://www.jureystudio.com/pennystove/.
Graham
GRP BR20 #59 Turaco III

Graham W

Re: Stoves
« Reply #23 on: 13 Dec 2016, 23:35 »
If meths/ethanol is too slow as a fuel and you don't like gas, this stuff may be an alternative and is cheaper than Coleman Fuel http://www.swallowyachtsassociation.org/smf/index.php/topic,1377.msg10207.html#msg10207
Graham
GRP BR20 #59 Turaco III

Graham W

Re: Stoves
« Reply #24 on: 01 Jan 2017, 18:17 »
I think that I have landed on the perfect stove/cookware combination for my BR20, based on Swedish Trangia in various flavours.

First the cookware.  Until about 10 years ago, Trangia used to make some pans from aluminium and stainless steel pressed together at high pressure.  The outside of the pans was aluminium for good heat conductivity, while the inside was stainless steel for ruggedness and scour resistance.  Pans can still occasionally be found on eBay and there is one online store in France that is miraculously still selling full kits.  Search for Trangia Duossal and/or Pyrene-Bushcraft.  Trangia have replaced Duossal with hard anodised non-stick aluminium but it is quite easy to scratch and damage the pan surface, which doesn't last nearly as well.

For the heat source and if time is not important, the cheap Trangia spirit burner that comes with the full Trangia set is bombproof and works well, if slowly.  Fuel for the burner should be bioethanol instead of meths, which is smellier, slightly slower and not so clean burning.  If your time is important, get as an add-on a gas burner and self-sealing gas canister with a butane/propane mix.  The robust Trangia version fits perfectly with the rest of the kit, burns cleanly and can boil water in about a third the time of the spirit burner.  It is also easier to control the flame. There is a cheaper Go Systems gas burner that also fits with the Trangia kit.

For astonishing versatility at high cost, the Trangia X2 multifuel burner (based on the Primus Omnifuel) is hard to beat - it can burn canister gas and in addition a whole range of pressurised liquid fuels.  However, it is quite noisy, even when running on canister gas.  Worse, the priming process for pressurised liquid fuels is time-consuming, fiddly and can take your eyebrows off (or set fire to your boat).  There are remedies for both problems: pour on a dose of bioethanol rather than releasing pressurised liquid fuel for priming; and get a metal silent cap for the burner.  If you have the X2 (running on canister gas) and the spirit burner, you have all bases covered.  With two Trangia sets, you can boil water or cook on the gas and simultaneously cook/simmer something else on the spirit burner.

One more thing with the X2 - if you run your outboard on Aspen alkylated petrol, which I will be doing from next season, it can also be used as a relatively clean pressurised liquid fuel in the stove.  Useful if you run out of canister gas or it won't work properly because it is too cold.
Graham
GRP BR20 #59 Turaco III

Graham W

Re: Stoves
« Reply #25 on: 12 Jan 2017, 08:47 »
Some stove measurements: a Trangia gas burner running on butane/propane takes about 3 minutes to boil a pint of water; a silenced Trangia X2 multifuel burner using pressurised Aspen 4 alkylate petrol takes slightly longer but when priming and other bits of faffing around are taken into account, takes much longer; and the simple spirit burner running on bioethanol takes about 8 minutes.  All in perfect conditions - if it had been cold or windy, I'm sure that the times would have been different. 

For reference, a fast electric kettle running on 240V takes about a minute and a half to boil.  So the Trangia gas burner, which is clean and simple and doesn't need priming, performs well but with all the usual risks of having gas on board.  The X2 burns just about anything but it's quite a performance to get it going, so won't be used much in future.  And the spirit burner is safest and possibly the best choice for a boat if you're not in a hurry.  I'll probably use a combination of the gas burner for fast boiling and a spirit burner for everything else.

The Aspen 4 petrol, in addition to being much cheaper than Coleman Fuel (white spirit), burns much cleaner, quite a bit faster and with less smell. If you have both a multifuel burner and a 4-stroke outboard (also running on Aspen 4), it's a useful back-up if all else fails but otherwise I wouldn't bother.   
Graham
GRP BR20 #59 Turaco III

Peter Taylor

Re: Stoves
« Reply #26 on: 14 Jan 2017, 12:28 »
To follow on from Graham... some kettle measurements: about a year ago I tested a new kettle with with "heat transfer technology(!)" - basically an annular false bottom which is connected to the main kettle with heat exchange fins (on the left in the attached photo). I bought one from Angling Direct which was far cheaper than I'd previously seen them in Cotswold. The heat source was a flat butane cartridge stove with Brightspark "Butane Battery" cartridges (which are a butane/propane mix). For each test I used a new cartridge and measured the time to boil 0.5 litre of water (about 1 pint). The water was initially at 16C and this was done in my house - no wind, rain etc.

The whistling kettle (right in photo, base diameter 18.5cm, weight empty 417g) took 3 min 45 sec. The new kettle (15cm, 303g) took 3min 15sec. The little alloy kettle from my trusty Trangia camping set (12cm, 143g, 0.5l capacity) took 3min 50sec - almost as quick as the stainless steel kettle.

So the conclusion was that the new kettle was indeed faster despite being more compact. In fact for me its main advantage is not speed of boiling but that it is lighter and easier to store.

Peter

Before someone asks, no the new kettle does not whistle, but nor does the "whistling" kettle when used on a spirit stove or on a butane stove with a part used gas cartridge!
Peter Taylor
BayCruiser 20 "Seatern" (009)
http://www.seatern.uk

Matthew P

Re: Stoves
« Reply #27 on: 15 Jan 2017, 18:51 »
Following Bill's recommendation last spring I bought a Brukit from Alpkit.  This comprises an insulated 1 ltr aluminium pot with a heat exchanger built into the base that locks onto a burner unit fuelled by a butane cylinder.  It's not stable on it's own but is easy to wedge upright and packs down into its own pot. 

Performance on my sheltered patio - so very light breeze
19 C air temp
1 Ltr tap water, temp not checked but guessing about 10 C
Primus Propane-Isobutane 450g cylinder (not recommended by Alpkit! - they recommend 250gm)
Used 25gm of gas - so 10 boils (8 boils to be cautious) out of a 250gm cylinder
It boiled in 5 mins, so slightly faster per ltr than Peter's kettle - although rate boiling speed versus volume of water may not be linear.

Camping on board with it last summer was a great success. I only used it to boil water, primarily for my tea-porridge-tea-porridge-breakfast and lunch regime, with the porridge being made in wide neck thermos, so the Brukit pot never needed cleaning.  In the evening we used a square "pancake" style butane cartridge stove to heat alternatives to porridge.

I see that Alpkit no longer sell the Brukit but have replaced it with the very similar Brukit Wolf and a smaller version Brukit Jackal.   See https://www.alpkit.com/products/brukit-wolf.

Matthew
BR20 Gladys

david

Re: Stoves
« Reply #28 on: 15 Jan 2017, 19:25 »
We have Jetboil flash, which appears to be similar to Mathews. Time of boil the "two cup" capacity is around 2 mins.
 My use is similar to Mathews with tea, soup and freeze dried hiking food packets. Hits the spot for warmth and easy to use.

http://www.jetboil.com/
David

BR 20 - Nomad
You Tube channel - SwallowBoatstheNomad

Graham W

Re: Stoves
« Reply #29 on: 19 Jan 2017, 16:14 »
A final Trangia word: they sell a "winter attachment" for their spirit burner that is intended for priming said burner from underneath in harsh winter conditions, when the meths or bioethanol might otherwise not catch light readily.  Primed underneath with a couple of drops of bioethanol (and that's all it needs at room temperature), the time that the burner takes to boil a pint of water drops from eight minutes to less than six, including priming time.  Surprisingly fast for such an unsophisticated piece of equipment and faster than the Trangia X2 multifuel stove burning pressurised Coleman Fuel (at risk to life and limb).

Here is a summary of the boiling times in minutes for various permutations in ascending order:

Kenwood electric kettle (on the 240V mains)                                                 1.3   
Trangia gas burner, Coleman gas cartridge                                                     3.0   
Trangia X2 multifuel, Aspen 4, Omnidawg silent cap, 37mm jet                       3.1*
Trangia X2 multifuel, Coleman gas cartridge, Omnidawg silent cap, 45mm jet   3.4   
Trangia X2 multifuel, Coleman gas cartridge, Omnidawg silent cap, 37mm jet   3.5   
Trangia X2 multifuel, Coleman gas cartridge, 32mm jet                                   3.8   
Trangia X2 multifuel, Aspen 4, 32mm jet                                                       4.9*
Trangia spirit burner bioethanol, winter attachment                                        5.9   
Trangia X2 multifuel, Coleman Fuel, 32mm jet                                                6.5*
Trangia spirit burner, bioethanol                                                                    7.9   
Trangia spirit burner, meths                                                                          8.0   
Esbit spirit burner, bioethanol                                                                        8.5   
Esbit spirit burner, meths                                                                            10.0

* Does not include priming or burning off time (to remove remaining fuel from the system and to depressurise it), both of which take about two minutes   
Graham
GRP BR20 #59 Turaco III