Tiller Pilot .. for my Baycruiser 23

[Andy Dingle]

With the season just starting and the plans for sailing far and wide being discussed in the pub, my thoughts are all about tiller tamers and their ilk. I've never been entirely happy with them, the best one I ever had was just a bit of string and a bit of shock cord.
But with some fairly long passages (for me!) being a distinct possibility, I thought to put it out there to ask on thoughts about an auto pilot for my Baycruiser 23? Does any other Baycruiser owner own and use one?

Initial internet searches show the Simrad TP10 to be the smallest and maybe most suitable for this relatively small boat. Power is the biggest obstacle (and cost - not cheap at all), but this apparently only draws 0.5A in auto mode, a lot less on standby. I have twin 20W solar panels powering two 50 APH batteries. I don't have a charging coil on my Merc 6hp outboard, so maybe I need to think about having one fitted - are they worth it, does anyone know? Is the output going to make any difference to assist in charging.
My Standard Horizon chart plotter can output to a tiller pilot, so that is a consideration but far from being a requirement. The other power consuming bits of kit would just be the wind, vhf/dsc/ais, stereo, bluetooth mobile phone remote..Maybe lights depending on time of day/night, all fairly low power stuff. I can leave the dishwasher off until I can get some shore power...

I'm all in a quandry! Are they worth it? Any thoughts/opinions welcome..


Andy
Baycruiser 23 'Equinox'

[Rory C]

I bought a TP10 for my E Boat offshore one design a 22' lifting keel  trailer sailer some years ago. I wasn't sure how it would cope with a rather twitchy boat but it proved fantastically good in all points of sailing and enabled me to sail single handed with no worries about leaving the helm to set or reef sails etc.  We had an outboard engine with a coil though I wasn't convinced that it charged the battery much. I think it's there to supply a navigation light and not much more. Once the TP10 settled in to a set of conditions the amount of tiller adjusting it did was surprisingly like a touch here and a touch there and there was no obvious battery drain. If I had a battery on my BRe I would be very tempted to have another. I rely on a string and shock cord which gives me the freedom I need but without the intelligence of a TP10! Go for it I would say!
Rory C Gobhlan-Gaoithe

[Peter Taylor]

I have a Raymarine ST1000 on my BC20 and I wouldn't be without it - on some trips I think it steers more than I do!  I chose the Raymarine rather than Simrad TP10 because it allowed me to buy a remote control. However the remote control proved useless since it switches itself off and then is not available when you want it - total waste of money.  Maybe they have realised and changed the design by now but I'd need to be sure before buying one again!

If you want to interface the tiller pilot through NMEA you need to check the NMEA sentences it understands - my Garmin chart plotter could drive it if I wanted it to, my NASA wind data could not since it uses a different data sentence.  However I have never thought it worthwhile to interface the chart plotter - why would I want to?  Interfacing the wind might have a use, but you risk going off course if the wind shifts.

Power consumption varies - as you might expect. If the tiller pilot is fighting to keep on course (eg strong winds with seas on the quarter) it can be up to 2 amps... but in those conditions I should be steering anyway.  Mostly it is order 0.5 amp and not continuous.

The LCD display is very useful (do they all have one?) since it confirms that the tiller pilot is steering - I don't always hear the beep when I set it.

I do also have a tiller tamer (Davis Instruments) which I mainly use to put some friction on the tiller - useful when going about since the tiller stays where I put it while I trim the jib sheets.  However for maintaining course I always use the Tiller Pilot. For single handed sailing I really do rely on it.

Slightly more info  (including installation comments - check dimensions) is on my blog...
http://www.seatern.org.uk/SeaternDiaries/firstyear01.php ...and click on the ST1000 link

Peter

[Andy Dingle]

Thanks for the replies chaps ..
I'm now minded to go for it and get one - I found out the TP10 does not take a feed off the chart plotter (thanks for the tip about sentencing Peter, I'll check). Which probably is why it is cheaper.
I checked with Matt, who says they fit the Raymarine ST1000 for customers.. but he was positive too about fitting one, although he says they fit it to the stainless (aft) part of the tiller, as opposed to the wood, which I assumed I would fit it to thereby giving more leverage and less work for the machine... But it would be less intrusive fitted further aft.

I presume it will mean cutting more holes through the gel coat ..  which is always a cause of great trepidation.. but I'll have a careful look and measure up before I order one.
Fortunately the fitting instructions/manual are available on line.

I'll update if/when it is done!

Thanks ..

Andy

[Peter Taylor]

Hi Andy,

Where and how you fit it really does depend on how best to meet (as far as possible) the dimensions specified.  The total throw is limited so fitting it farther forward is not an option, the one on Seatern slots onto the pin on aft end of the tiller, ringed in the attached photo (taken when everything was clean and new!).  You also need a bracket or some other arrangement to hold the TP1000 when it is not on the tiller - also visible in photo.

Cheers,
Peter

[Andy Dingle]

Many thanks for your advice and pictures Peter, I have looked at your website too - very good.

I've been on the boat today and looking at your installation, I think I could do similar. My rudder/tiller set up is much the same as yours.
If I made up a mounting plate/bracket and glued/screwed it onto the port/stbd underside of the traveller mounting bar (mine is the same as yours), I could then just glue it to the coaming side if I found some devilish tough glue, then I wouldn't have to screw it in. I'd have to reinforce the inside as well and I've no idea how I could access inside anyway.

Of course, now I've actually thought about my original idea on installation, the throw of the piston just wouldn't be long enough, making it totally unworkable! And I do like the idea of mounting it well aft, the stainless bracket lends itself to mounting the 'pin' and it would all be neatly out of the way - only draw back is that the aft corners of the cockpit are a really comfortable place to sit and relax and I would lose one side..

I'm slowly formulating a plan..  just need to decide now what model to get. Probably the same as yours...

By the way, thanks for the very useful article on the Solent, one of my many plans is to come down there for a cruise, maybe even this year!? When that time comes I'll be sure to be in touch.

Thanks again. Here's to a great summer!


Regards

[Peter Taylor]

By coincidence the latest PBO has an article on bringing a Raymarine Tiller Pilot back to life (it had spent some time being partially submerged). You get to see what's inside the thing.

If I were choosing now, I'd think about (but not necessarily buy) the Simrad TP22  - expensive and overkill in terms of steering strength but it has a wired remote control option.  Simrad say their tiller pilots are designed to be quiet. It would be interesting to know if they are quieter than the Raymarine ST1000. It's not particularly noisy but is enough to disturb the peace when sailing in light winds.    On the other hand the Simrad doesn't appear to have the LCD display which I find very useful on the Raymarine.

Peter

[Andy Dingle]

The deed is done - just ordered the TP22 from a massive chandlers chain from down your neck of the woods Peter.
Only reason was that it was on special offer! Same price as the ST1000 - and with its extra grunt I can use it on a larger boat if/when I go for a heavier displacement boat again.
I agree about the LCD display on the ST1000 - I would like to see one on the TP22, but to counter that, the TP22 has a designated 'tack' button that will (apparently) put the boat thro' 100deg just by asking it nicely.. marvellous!
I'm sure they are pretty much of a muchness but I had to make a choice and the price was the deciding factor.

On a downside, internet research indicates both have issues with water ingress? Especially at the point where the piston enters the body of the machine? Maybe mounting it slightly downwards may counter that..
I'll let you know how noisy it is, not that I have anything to compare it with..

Andy

[Peter Taylor]

On a downside, internet research indicates both have issues with water ingress? Especially at the point where the piston enters the body of the machine? Maybe mounting it slightly downwards may counter that..
I'll let you know how noisy it is, not that I have anything to compare it with..

I'm sure you won't regret having a Tiller Pilot, it will be interesting to see how you get on with the TP22. 

The thing I use the LCD screen for is to tell me whether I've remembered to switch it into "auto" (i.e. "steer") rather than just attaching it to the tiller and leaving it in "standby".  I've just checked on the web and it appears that the TP22 has LEDs to perform that role.  So all you miss is knowing the compass course it thinks it's steering - which I hardly ever look at.  I've never bothered to "swing" the Tiller Pilot's compass.

What you will quickly discover is that it is important to switch to "standby" before taking it off the tiller.  Otherwise as soon as you alter course it will extend the piston with great force and knock a bit off the boat. At least, that was my experience! 

Re. water ingress and having seen the PBO article, I think I'll take mine apart sometime and check the insides.  One can imaging that the piston drags small amounts of water into the device which then can't get out!  They ought really to incorporate a Goretex window in the body (no doubt adding a further £100 to the price!).

Re. noise, I've got a dB meter app on my iPhone; we could try measuring the two!  But I suspect we would need to calibrate the apps first....

[Rob Johnstone]

Hi Andy,

I've just caught up with this thread; as you know I didn't bother with an auto pilot for my "round Britain" bit but admit it would have been useful on several occasions (13 hours at the tiller was a bit of a stretch!). My reasons for not going ahead (apart from ££) were (a) power consumption and (b) the heavy weather helm that is difficult to trim out of Vagabond (although I eventually "cracked it" on the last legs). I'll be really interested to see how you get on with it on long stretches.

Rob J

[Andy Dingle]

Nice to hear from you Rob - as my official Baycruiser 23 guru I welcome your input.

Did you see my piece re installation of this wondrous tiller slave.. ?

My plan is to make up a mounting 'plate' that will be fixed to the stbd underside of the traveller mounting wooden bar, just underneath, where I think this plate could fit quite well, screwed and glued up tight to the bottom of the wood bar.
I've been on the boat today and there is also a convenient flat piece of coaming just under the big retaining bolt - which the plate would lay flush to.. which is handy as I reckon there will be some substantial backing wood inside the coaming at this point?
This plate would then lay level with the top of the aft end of the wood bit of the tiller - I could adjust it's height accordingly to fit the piston retaining pin either on the wood or lower on the stainless. Matt says he fits them on the stainless, so that is probably the way to go?

The wiring would go from the distribution panel - I'll try and use a dedicated switch for it - but all my switches are taken up, so there may have to be a bit of rejiggling. Then behind the curious 'box with a lid' under the companionway step to the stbd side then out through the bulkhead to the stbd cockpit locker, the connecting plug then fitted through the grp at the aft end of the stbd locker lid and just before the aft stbd buoyancy tank. It'll be quite close to the tiller pilot there.

What do you think of that? Any observations? It should be similar to Peter Taylor's BC20 installation.

I'm pleased for you that you got the weather helm sorted out.
I must say my helm has pretty well always been nicely balanced, even when reefed - but I can reef the genoa around the luff spar which really helps to balance the helm.. So the tiller slave will hopefully have an easy job of it. We'll see.

Should have had it today - but fed ex left a note saying as there was no one in when they turned up, so would I kindly fetch it from the depot - 120 mile round trip..! I don't think so. Why do these people do this?!

Cheers

[Peter Taylor]

Depending on what sort of motor/electronics Simrad use there may be a significant transient current each time the "Tiller Slave" leaps to your service. A dedicated switch and fuse (or circuit breaker if you have them)  is definitely desirable - also do adhere to the recommended wire cross sections so as to avoid a voltage drop (can easily occur with 12V systems because the currents are relatively large and any resistance causes a loss). 

On Seatern there was only one place that the TP100 could be fixed and come near to satisfying the specified geometry.  Even so I had to invest in a push rod extension at some ridiculous cost for a short bit of metal tubing  (I'd forgotten about that until now!),
Peter

[Rob Johnstone]

Hi Andy,
I'm pretty sure I don't qualify as a "guru" on BC23 but thanks for the thought! I always regard myself as a timid amateur watching enviously as you experienced guys go off in all weathers. The weather helm was cured by reducing the mast rake!

I can't quite viualise where you intend to mount the auto helm - pronbably because I spent more time looking forward than looking back. When I was considering mounting one on Vagabond, I had though of creating an upside down L shaped wooden mounting glued on to the top and side of one of the aft bouyancy compartments, on which the muscle part of the device would pivot, with some sort of ball (for a ball and socket joint ) mounted on the lower stainless part of the tiller.

It seemed to me that somewhere you had to make a comprmise between the amount of movement required from the arm of the auto h and the amount of push required from it. At times the oomph required on the very end of the tiller is quite high (guess 30 or so lbf) so nearer the rudder this will be three or more times as much because of the change in leverage. Hence my concern about power consumption.

I did discuss with Matt whether he could improve the balance of the rudder. There was talk of making a prototype, but I haven't heard of progress.

Perhaps Matt could publish some calcs for us?

Cheers
Rob J

[Peter Taylor]

At times the oomph required on the very end of the tiller is quite high (guess 30 or so lbf) so nearer the rudder this will be three or more times as much because of the change in leverage. Hence my concern about power consumption.

Hi Rob,
The tiller Pilot, at least the Raymarine one and almost certainly the Simrad, works on a screw-jack (ie worm drive) principle so there is quite a large amount of mechanical advantage involved. My TP1000 only starts using an amp or two of 12V power when I really ought to be steering the boat myself anyway. In normal use its an intermittent 0.5 amp or so.

For anyone wanting to know about the power consumption of a device on the boat I recommend one of the watt meters sold for radio controlled model applications. You can get them for about £10 on the web and they give both instantaneous and integrated power consumption.  However you do have to place them in series in your wiring while you get a reading.

Cheers,
Peter