Bermudan vs. gunter rig on BR/BRe?

[maxr]

One of the reasons I'm interested in the comparison between the 'American' fully battened 'fat head' sail and single piece mast, and the original Gunter rig, is that in the past I've sailed a number of boats that are great in light to medium winds but either become unresponsive and less enjoyable to sail in higher winds, or some part of the rig flexes.  The Hawk is a great boat to sail in stronger wind providing you pay attention, because it reacts to wind variations and rig adjustments almost as fast as a sailing dinghy (it feels like a big Wayfarer rather than a small yacht). On the other hand, I had a Wanderer dinghy which just leant over and became sluggish in gusts, and you get boats where it feels like the hull is flexing in gusts because the leeward shroud/s go from tight to slack. I read here of some experience with the gunter sprit of a BR falling away in gusts, and that sounds like an inefficiency I'd be happy to avoid.

Anyone sailed both rigs, e.g. had a gunter BR then moved to a bermudan BRe?

[Ape Ears]

Max

It may be useful to consider the evidence from the last Swallow Boat, sorry Yacht, rally at Mylor 2016, when 'Gladys' (Matthew Peacock) a basic gunter rigged BayRaider showed a clean sweep by beating the other 26 participants over a series of courses in varying conditions. She was disqualified from the last 'race' for allegedly exceeding the speed limit in Restronguet Creek but still came home first to beat the fleet for a cream tea. 'Gladys' was also the only boat to finish the prescribed course in a force 5 gusting 6. For the past 3 years a gunter rigged Bayraider has been awarded the Swallow Yachts Trophy at Sail Caledonia and won overall at least twice ( Turaco and Gladys ) in the face of stiff competition from other bermudan rigged boats.

The versatility and adaptability and performance of the gunter rig is therefore well proven sailing against similar boats. Subjectively the lower aspect ratio of the gunter rig is an advantage in strong winds but it does help to have 200kg moveable ballast; the light wind performance of the bermudan rig may be slightly more efficient but even with a spinnaker is no match for the oarsome  output of the ballast in propulsion mode.

I would also concur with Michael Rogers that the junk rig should not be dismissed as 'Cavatina' made a very tough challenge for 'Gladys' on Ullswater a couple of years ago, much to her crew's surprise.

Andrew

[maxr]

Thanks for that, AE - playing devil's advocate, there's always the explanation that Michael and Matthew's performances might be because they're very skilled and cunning sailors who have optimised the performance of their boats? I one swapped over my ancient and tatty Solo dinghy for a trial of a new state of the art one owned by a race winner, and he sailed straight away from me in my old and tatty boat. That's why I'm interested to find someone who has sailed both rigs.

[Matthew P]

Hi Max

I'd better put the record straight and explain that most of the time Andrew is the "very skilled and cunning sailor" responsible for Gladys's success. And as Andrew says, mobile ballast and oar-some propulsion from Mick and Nick gave us wings when the wind fell.

I may as well confess to a few minor mods; installing gaskets to the centre-board slot, a watertight-ish plug in the outboard well that increases stern buoyancy (but precludes an outboard motor so other boats, often Ella, gives Gladys a harbour tow), stiffening the top mast leading edge with carbon tape, attaching the topmast with a knot to keep it close to the main mast (not always successful) and polishing the centre board and rudder blade to encourage laminar flow. My 82 year old father in law polishes the hull for me!  Borrowing Graham's superb carbon fibre oars also helped. And I think that the sails, though now 7 years old and made by Dolphin, have quite a nice shape. As you can see, a lot of people contribute to Gladys's success.  In  a spirit of disloyalty I'm happy to "blow the gaff  " and share this now in order to encourage competition to Craic! (sorry Andrew).

Back on topic, I like the gunter rig because it does the job, is very tidy when reefed (no unemployed spars flapping around above the sail), spars and sail stow neatly within the boat without removing from the tabernacle - and I think the more traditional appearance looks good.

Yes I'm biased!

Matthew
BR20 GRP Gladys

[maxr]

Thanks very much for telling us all Gladys's secrets Matthew that's very useful.

Right, who's going to tell us how wonderful the carbon Bermudan battened rig is - maybe BRe converts?

[Graham W]

Tim of 'Ristie' fame is the man to give you the definitive answer on this, having graduated from a gunter-rigged BR20 to a BRe and sailed the latter extensively on the west coast of Scotland.

When Andrew isn't on the helm of my gunter-rigged BR20, I sometimes have difficulty keeping up with the BRe's.  Unless it involves rowing, in which case and with my two rowing positions to their one, I can beat them into a cocked hat

[maxr]

Thanks again for that Graham. So, Graham says BRe's can hard to keep up with in a BR. Swallow Yachts webpage speaks thusly:

BayRaider 20 sail area 16.95 sq.m

BayRaider Expedition sail area 17.70 sq.m

I assume that extra 0.75m.sq is all in the BRe mainsail - might that be why BRe's are quick?

And oops, here we go off topic - I found a photo (below) on the 'sailing in circles' blog of Michael Rogers' junk rigged Trouper 'Cavatina', which Michael mentions above.  The original info under the photo says she points well - a welcome attribute I didn't expect after reading reviews of other junk rig boats. Also, that junk rig looks neat compared to photos of others I've seen. Has anyone yet tried a junk rig BR, or thought of designing a junk rig for the BR?

[Graham W]

BayRaider Expedition sail area 17.70 sq.m

I assume that extra 0.75m.sq is all in the BRe mainsail - might that be why BRe's are quick?

The extra BRe sail area is in the fathead part of the mainsail and certainly helps downwind.  Turaco is better at keeping up when going upwind and often seems to do well in strong winds - except when upside down.

[Tony]

Hi, Max r.
For info:-
When I said that Michael's junk rig 'pointed well' I meant relative to lug rigs in general (...and mine in particular!) "Cavatina" does point higher than many badly set up fore and aft rigs (Michael will be pleased to tell you!) but yer average BR or BRe will do better going to windward. Lug and junk rigs, all things being equal, will knock the spots off a Bermudian off the wind and down wind (and have other advantages for a cruising sailor) but many prefer to put up with its shortcomings for the pleasure of pointing higher. (Some even enjoy flying a kite down wind. No accounting for taste!)

It's odd that when I ride my bike everywhere is up hill and when I sail "Four Sisters" my destination is more often than not, up wind!

[Tony]

BayRaider Expedition sail area 17.70 sq.m

Turaco is better at keeping up when going upwind and often seems to do well in strong winds - except when upside down.

I seem to remember that Matt kept you company that day in Falmouth!

[Graham W]

Matt leads, others follow.

[Andy Dingle]

Just slightly relevant to this thread, but I couldn't resist adding to it.
I've been doing a lot of reading on this subject of late and all agree entirely with what Tony points out.. However!

In my virtual perambulations about the internet in lonely hotel rooms. I happened across this..

Nigel Iren's Romilly converted to a lug yawl with a cutter rig..  isn't she just about the most beautiful thing you have ever seen?!

http://www.classicboat.co.uk/buying-and-chartering/grey-merlin-shoal-draft-cruiser/

I added this link from the PBO report on her ...

http://www.romilly.nl/pdf/Roxane-Practical-Boat-Owner-jan-97-Blue-Merlin.pdf

PBO claim she was pointing upwind at 35 degrees and still doing 5 knots..


I wonder if the same could be done on a Baycruiser 23... there's a thought?

She is currently up for sale at a cool £47.5k

[Michael Rogers]

Hallo Max r

I missed your contribution on 13 November. Thanks for the photo (courtesy of Tony, and on L Bala, I believe)! While in demure boasting mode (that's an oxymoron, I suppose), there's also a fetching pic of Cavatina in Water Craft 109 (Jan/Feb 2015), taken by Andrew Wolstenholme no less, at Falmouth during the 2014 English Raid.

Re JR and Swallow er-Yachts, see my earlier comment on this thread. So far as I know, JR hasn't been tried on a BR yet: Robin Blain has a BC20. See also, incidentally, the detailed description of Cavatina's rig in the Library.

So far as sailing to windward is concerned, the key point is to have a modern JR sail. Each of the panels between the battens has a built- (sewn-) in camber, so that the sail is essentially a stack of aerofoils: the degree of camber diminishes from bottom to top, so that when reefed (i.e. in heavy weather) the sail is flatter, but still cambered. Cambered panels make a huge difference to windward. In contrast, traditional junk rig sails, e.g. in Blondie Hasler's time, were flat, and performance upwind was rather less than average.

All this erudite discussion - such fun! (now who said that?)

Michael R

[maxr]

Thanks very much for that Michael.

I know this is reinventing the wheel territory, but it would be good to have a rig available that goes to windward as well as standard Bermudan, doesn't flog, and reefs easily. It sounds like JR is getting closer to that, but slowly because it looks like most of the development is being done by individual enthusiasts. Beneteau (I think) developed an unstayed una rig for cruisers several years ago which was favourably reviewed in Yachting Monthly, but that has yet to make it to production - the sail was quite complicated by comparison with JR.