Minimal nav + safety gear list for inshore sailing?

[Matthew P]

How about this for £9 on Ebay?

Marine Safety Floating Rescue Knife Yellow (MZ 10053) with Rounded Tip

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Marine-Safety-Floating-Rescue-Knife-Yellow-MZ-10053-with-Rounded-Tip-/182189661299?hash=item2a6b599c73:g:RZ0AAOSwiDFYLFEP

Is it legally compliant?
Does the round tip make self-stabbing less likely?
Would it be effective for cutting free of sails, ropes etc in an emergency?
Would it give my fingers a nasty gash if I closed it accidentally? - looks like it would.

Incidentally someone, who's opinion I respect, told me that dry suits can be a significant hazard if air is trapped in the legs and you end up floating upside down. In this case the only remedy is to slash the dry suit legs with a knife - so would this knife do the job?  Of course prevention is better than cure, so it is important to expel excess air from the dry suit (bending the  knees and put fingers down the neck when putting it on) and wear a buoyancy aid capable of keeping your head above water even if your feet are afloat.  Back to belt and braces - wearing a buoyancy aid AND a manually activated inflatable life jacket.

Perhaps its time to think of more cheerful topics like planning sailing events, starting with Graham's not-organised meeting this Friday at Bala.

Matthew
BR20 Gladys

[maxr]

Matthew -dry suit swing tags usually suggest you 'burp' the suit, as you suggest - but given that we'd be wearing at least 50N buoyancy at chest level, is a little air in the suit going to be a problem? More sophisticated yacht drysuits with a air inflation tube may have a bladder on the chest or something similar - at £850 rather than £300-£400 you'd hope they'd thought of that.

Here's a photo of an Ebay safety knife of the kind I have, with a horribly sharp cutting edge on the inside of the end hook to the 2 3/4" blade. This cuts small diameter ropes like butter.

[Michael Rogers]

If you lot are sailing on L Bala in late November (wish I could come, actually), never mind pricey dry suits, I suggest a Fladen (or similar) immersion suit: keeps you snug and dry on board, and protects from hypothermia if you find yourself in, rather than on, the lake. AND you can have a pee relatively easily if you have to. No brainer. I believe Graham, sensible chap, has one: ask him.

PS Other than in winter, you do rather get cooked in one. Wear a minimum of clothing underneath.

[Graham W]

I'll be wearing mine on Friday.

[maxr]

Do affordable immersion suits significantly slow down water ingress if you fall in? I read someplace that a problem with normal foulies is that a sudden cold water shock renders you immobile much quicker than a gradual seepage. I see Crewsaver do them with a lifejacket built in, but I think those superior immersion suits may be as expensive as a drysuit.

[Graham W]

My cheap Fladen immersion suit is fairly snug but on the question of water ingress, I don't intend to find out!

[Rob Johnstone]

I've a Fladen suit. It is a bit of the  "boil in a bag" variety but I did find this has an advantage.

When proceeding from Inverness to Helmsdale a year or two ago Vagabond and I started out on a pleasant (for NE Scotland) summers morning and I was in non fouly clothing (but with a thick pullover, mind). The weather gradually deteriorated until we had a sea running across our course and the wind had picked up to a 4. I was contemplating putting on my Fladen when a sea broke across the cockpit coaming........Soaked and frozen, I heaved to and stripped off most of my outer layers and struggled into the Fladen.

I was surprised how quickly I warmed up. 

I have not checked out how quickly it lets in the water but suspect that the weakpoint will be around the neck. I have heard that, as with drysuits, they can tend invert a user.

I hope never to have to test either of these conditions.

[Michael Rogers]

People seem to have difficulty grasping the essential differences between an immersion suit and a dry suit. 1) An immersion suit protects from cold in the water (and air): it has built-in insulation which a (traditional) dry suit does not have. 2) After immersion, an I S does NOT keep you dry: it doesn't attempt to. It has no seals, and a certain amount of water gets in. The layer of water in the suit warms up quite quickly, and becomes part of the insulation.

So, if you want to keep dry, get a dry suit: it won't protect much from cold water and (in my view anyway) is quite uncomfortable to wear for any length of time. If you want to stave off hypothermia for a surprisingly long time (and keep snug and dry in cold weather, rather too hot in mild weather, even if you don't go overboard), get an immersion suit: you'll probably survive even though you get a bit wet. The built-in buoyancy is a bonus.

Some water will certainly get into an immersed immersion suit: it is supposed to, and you will get wet but keep warm. I suppose, in theory if air got trapped that could invert you, but in practice it tends not to happen because of the absence of ankle/wrist/neck seals.

[Peter Taylor]

To be pedantic (in the hope of minimising confusion!)   a true immersion suit is indeed designed to keep you dry. However, if you Google "immersion suit" you will get offered garments like the Fladen which people tend to call immersion suits.  That, and the Mullion X4 suit which I was wearing during the first couple of days of this "summers" Swallow Yachts raid, really should be described as "Flotation suits", not "Immersion suits". The properties of each are defined by SOLAS regulations much in the same way as buoyancy aids differ from life-jackets.

Flotation work-suits like the X4 allow you to work on deck, and give you buoyancy and insulation should you fall into the water. They are designed to flood but, if closed up, to restrict the flow of water in and out thus allowing you to survive in cold water long enough for someone still on the ship to hook you out. As you are hooked out, mesh panels in the ankle "seals" allow the suit to drain.

Immersion suits are designed to keep you dry and allow you to survive in the water if the ship you were on sinks, until (hopefully) a helicopter arrives and plucks you out. Ones like the Royal Navy "Once Only" suits are "one size fits all" and leave you pretty helpless for doing anything except float in the water and wait to be rescued.

Attached are a pic of a "once only" and of me in a Mullion X4 directing traffic during a flood event where I live; I'll leave you to decide which is which, the car is a clue!
Peter

[Michael Rogers]

Thank you, Peter. I stand partially corrected and, as always with your explanations, considerably the wiser.

[maxr]

Thanks all - looking at Mullion's site, they do a 'semi dry' SOLAS suit with 80N built in buoyancy and neoprene wrist, neck, and ankle seals, for e.g. £384 at this retailer:

http://norwestmarine.co.uk/index.php/marine-safety-products/mullion-flotation-suits-life-jackets/flotation-suits/smart-solas-suit-1a.html

I assume it's rated 'SEMI dry' because the zip isn't fully waterproof, and it doesn't say it's breathable, so may be a bit boil-in-the-bag? There appear to be yachty drysuit equivalents intended for long term use, made from breathable fabric with lots of pockets and easy access zip systems - like this, from Typhoon

https://andark.co.uk/product/typhoon-ps330-xtreme-drysuit-100151/

This looks like it might be the bees knees for cool or cold weather sailing - lifejacket compatible, removable collar, waist level dryzip for easy on and off, plus many bells and whistles. Price appears to be quite variable between retailers, discounted from £550 (Andark current Sale) upwards. You can spend that on a suit of 'offshore' foulies if you try. I want one.

[Peter Taylor]

I should say that I don't recommend my Mullion X4 for sailing!  It was good to use on the safety rib during the raid when it was raining and blowing and most of the time I was doing nothing but standing in the wind.  However for sailing, "boil-in-the-bag" is indeed a good description.  I suspect the 'semi dry' SOLAS suit is even worse in that respect. Give me breathable gear any day!
Peter

[david]

Hi Max, I just saw that the water tribe "Everglades Challenge" starts today. They have a good section on safety gear that I use. I think it is a good starting point for safety gear lists for coastal cruising. You may find it informative for your purposes.
Their website for general info.  http://www.watertribe.com/Events/EvergladesChallenge/Default.aspx

I do not think you will need - Sawyer Extractor added to your first aid kit - some say this is old school, I say I like old school.  - for snake bites 

I will attach the safety listing.