Author Topic: Tow Cars - petrol or diesel?  (Read 18021 times)

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Matthew P

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Tow Cars - petrol or diesel?
« on: 05 Mar 2018, 16:24 »
Vera the Volvo's (V70 2.8D auto) gearbox is getting dodgy so I'm looking for a replacement car. 

Skoda Yetis have a good reputation although I note you have to be careful to match the engine/body spec to the trailer. According to the Skoda website the max unbraked trailer weight varies between 670Kg and 750Kg which is a critical range for Gladys (BR20 GRP).  Only the more powerful 2.0 TDI Yeti variants provide 750KG.

So if I get a Yeti it probably has to be diesel.  But  is diesel still a good option?  I'm not planning to drive through London but using diesel seems set to become more restricted elsewhere.

Any advice anyone?

Matthew
Gladys BR20
"Hilda", CLC Northeast[er], home build, epoxy ply, balanced lug
Previously "Tarika", BR17, yard built, epoxy-ply, gunter rigged
and "Gladys" BR20, GRP, gunter

robjarman

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Re: Tow Cars - petrol or diesel?
« Reply #1 on: 05 Mar 2018, 21:14 »
I bought a Skoda octavia combi 4x4 (not the Scout) 2.0FSi and converted it to lpg - brilliant. v clean, v cheap, lpg available all over UK and EU, no loss of power - forget diesel please!

tow capacity is vg:
Make       Model                                   Year      Kerb weight (Kg)   85% (Kg)     Towing Capacity (Kg)
Skoda   Octavia 2.0 FSi Combi 4WD   2008      1450                  1232.5    1400   

the AWD capability is superb, same as VW 4Motion or old SYNCRO , auto engages when wheel slip detected, superb for greasy slipways and wet grass and mud...

I found the Yeti very short on luggage space...

hope that helps!  good luck
Rob
Albacore 651
aspiring BRE owner - anyone know where I can get one?!! (that's affordable...)

Ged

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Re: Tow Cars - petrol or diesel?
« Reply #2 on: 06 Mar 2018, 15:07 »
I've got a diesel Octavia Scout (roughty toughty 4wd version), I think it's just over 1500Kg so will tow a 750Kg unbraked trailer.
Apart from a couple of annoying electrical niggles it's been great so far and will do nearly 40mpg towing my Storm 17.
It has a good size boot and is comfortable and easy to drive.
I live on Exmoor so the 4wd and extra ride height were our main reason for choosing it.
Ged
Storm 17 'Peewit'

Peter T

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Re: Tow Cars - petrol or diesel?
« Reply #3 on: 06 Mar 2018, 18:51 »
I guess another approach would be to have your trailer converted to “braked” (see in the library under towing) and then you would have much more flexibility to choose a smaller car and/or a non diesel version if that suited.

Many years ago I was towing a similar sized braked trailer to that used for the BR, without the boat having just put that back on its mooring.  I went over a series of pot holes in the road whilst breaking from about 50 mph and the trailer started to bounce around violently and then popped off the tow ball!  The safety cable attached to the brake slowed the trailer as I slowed the car and to my astonishment there was absolutely no damage to anything apart from the road.   I don’t think this would have worked out quite so well with an un-braked trailer.  Since then un-braked trailers have always made me nervous.

Peter

BRE coming soon

Rob Johnstone

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Re: Tow Cars - petrol or diesel?
« Reply #4 on: 06 Mar 2018, 19:03 »
I agree with Peter a braked trailer makes more sense to me, one even help when the dreaded trailor sway sets in.

I'm afraid that Diesels have so much more torque at low revs than petrol at present that I don't see how they are going to be replaced on haulage jobs in the near future. Also, despite the scandal relating to the fiddling of the figures, modern (post about 2013) ones are nothing like as dirty as their older cousins. OK London charges more to park a Diesel (like 50% in Westminster) but I can't help but feel that's more of a revenue grab than a serious anti pollution scheme. (end of rant).

The other thing to think about is how far the vehicle body overhangs the back wheels. I have a 2014 2 litre Yeti 4 x 4 and it's a far better tow car than the 07 Vw Passat estate. Martina is not being replaced soon!
Rob J
Matt Newland designed but self built 15ft one off - "Lockdown". Ex BC23 #10 "Vagabond" and BC 23 # 54 "Riff Raff"

Rob Johnstone

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Re: Tow Cars - petrol or diesel?
« Reply #5 on: 06 Mar 2018, 19:45 »
I forgot the downside of the Yeti (at least when the (optional) spare wheel is supplied) the boot space is limited......
Rob J
Matt Newland designed but self built 15ft one off - "Lockdown". Ex BC23 #10 "Vagabond" and BC 23 # 54 "Riff Raff"

Peter T

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Re: Tow Cars - petrol or diesel?
« Reply #6 on: 06 Mar 2018, 21:48 »
Modern turbo charged petrol engines (like mine) can offer a lot more torque than earlier larger naturally aspirated engines but sometimes within an unacceptably narrow rev range for towing (hopefully not like mine). 

I shall say no more until I have collected my BRE and can talk with more authority.  After all, I am the bloke who once (a long time ago) towed his boat from Kent to Cornwall in his brand new company car for a two week holiday but had to have a new clutch fitted before we could come home!

Matthew P

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Re: Tow Cars - petrol or diesel?
« Reply #7 on: 07 Mar 2018, 07:59 »
Has anyone used an MPV such as a Vauxhall Zafira, Ford C-Max, Galaxy and variants?

Thanks Rob, Ged, Peter and Rob for sharing your useful experience.

Matthew
BR20 Gladys
"Hilda", CLC Northeast[er], home build, epoxy ply, balanced lug
Previously "Tarika", BR17, yard built, epoxy-ply, gunter rigged
and "Gladys" BR20, GRP, gunter

Ray S

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Re: Tow Cars - petrol or diesel?
« Reply #8 on: 07 Mar 2018, 14:48 »
I went for the Skoda Octavia 1.6TDI 4x4 - diesel of course.  According to owners manual permissable unbraked trailer load is 710kg. which I thought was marginal for Bre plus unbraked trailer weight plus all the gear.   So went for braked trailer for which permissible load is 1700-2000kg depending on gradient.

I looked at Yeti too but for a similar price the Octavia has stacks more boot space - very good when towing the boat somewhere - in fact I can get the BRe main boom and sail in which is handy sometimes.   The 4x4 very stable on slipways etc.   

Ray S Bre 047 Whimbrel

Peter T

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Re: Tow Cars - petrol or diesel?
« Reply #9 on: 07 Mar 2018, 21:14 »
Matthew

If you haven't already seen Peter Taylor's (BC20) blog on this topic you might find it helpful; I did!

http://seatern.uk/2017/11/4th-november-a-new-tow-car/

Matthew P

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Re: Tow Cars - petrol or diesel?
« Reply #10 on: 09 Mar 2018, 19:42 »
As always, Peter's advice is worth close attention.  His blog refers to https://towcar.info/GB/outfitmatch.php that, although aimed at caravans, provides lots of interesting data. With a bit of searching it is possible to find a range of "other caravans" called "Boat Trailer" with a wide range of gross weights to match your car against.

I am currently attracted by a 3 year old 2 ltr diesel Vauxhall Zafira, 20,000 miles at around £10K.  Apart from being dull in some people's eyes, can anyone tell me why this would be a bad choice? Lots of room for kit/outboard motors/spare wheels/grandchildren etc which I can't carry in my un-braked trailer for fear of exceeding the 750Kg weight limit.

Matthew
BR20 Gladys
"Hilda", CLC Northeast[er], home build, epoxy ply, balanced lug
Previously "Tarika", BR17, yard built, epoxy-ply, gunter rigged
and "Gladys" BR20, GRP, gunter

Mark Rushton

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Re: Tow Cars - petrol or diesel?
« Reply #11 on: 10 Mar 2018, 07:51 »
Nicky and I have just bought a new diesel Audi A6 Quattro to tow our BRe. There were a few factors which drove us down the new diesel route which may be interesting to others.

Firstly I ought to come clean and mention that I work for a company which makes exhaust gas emissions equipment used in automotive research and have spent the last 20 years working to detect NOx and particulates.

Here's a bit of background information. Diesel is currently out of fashion, as it is deemed to be dirty. This is not entirely fair with particulates as the implementation of Diesel Particulate Filters has effectively removed particles from diesel exhausts; this was mandated in Euro 5b from September 2011. DPFs are very effective, they remove more than 99% of particulate matter from the exhaust and render diesels less sooty than direct injection petrol cars (without a GPF). DPFs cannot be turned on and off so cheating is not really possible. NOx is a different story, until Euro 6, diesels could produce much more than petrol vehicles. Removing NOx from diesel exhaust is hard and requires heat in the exhaust, which means load on the engine; it's easier to clean up a truck than a car. You can turn a NOx reduction system on and off, and this is where the VW US scandal came from.

Because of the legislative threats being made about older diesels we decided to look at Euro 5 & 6 petrol cars and only Euro 6 diesels. It's quite hard to tell what emissions legislation a vehicle complies to just by looking at how old it is; Euro 6 was applied to new models from September 2014, to all vehicles manufactured after September 2015 and all vehicles sold after September 2016. So any diesel sold after September 2016 is definitely Euro 6, but this does seriously limit the choice in secondhand vehicles!

The diesel A6 is more fuel efficient than the petrol version, 50mpg vs 40mpg, according to Audi; I doubt we'll achieve this but the ratio between them is probably right. We do about 15000 miles a year and enough long trips to keep the DPF happy. There are some very good deals to be had on new diesels because of the bad press they have been getting, we got more than 25% off the list price by shopping around on the Internet, which made the difference between new and secondhand (post September 2016) negligible.

In summary, if you don't do all your driving in a big city, a new, big, cheap, diesel may be a good solution. That's what we thought and I guess time will tell.

Mark

Graham W

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Re: Tow Cars - petrol or diesel?
« Reply #12 on: 11 Mar 2018, 20:10 »
NOx is a different story, until Euro 6, diesels could produce much more than petrol vehicles. Removing NOx from diesel exhaust is hard and requires heat in the exhaust, which means load on the engine; it's easier to clean up a truck than a car. You can turn a NOx reduction system on and off, and this is where the VW US scandal came from.

I read somewhere that as with trucks, it's much easier for big car diesels to be relatively low pollution than small ones.  Apparently there's more space under big car bonnets to include thorough anti-emission devices like urea injection, which needs a reservoir like that used for screen wash.  This helps turn NOx into nitrogen and water by the time it exits the exhaust.  Presumably VW thought it would be cheaper and easier to incorporate cheating algorithms into its vehicle engine management software than to do things properly, particularly in smaller cars like the Golf.  By all accounts, they weren't alone.
Graham
Gunter-rigged GRP BR20 #59 Turaco III

Mark Rushton

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Re: Tow Cars - petrol or diesel?
« Reply #13 on: 11 Mar 2018, 21:20 »
Graham is correct in stating that it is easier to clean up a big diesel vehicle than a small one. I think it is so hard to clean up the diesel emissions of a super-mini that there will not be any made. Petrol engines with catalysts are the easy/cheap and clean way to power small cars and if you want to improve efficiency you add varying amounts of electrical hybridisation.

I don't think anybody is currently threatening to restrict the use of the latest Euro 6 vehicles, but older diesels seem to be in the political firing line.

Mark

Andy Dingle

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Re: Tow Cars - petrol or diesel?
« Reply #14 on: 13 Mar 2018, 11:29 »

And I'm still waiting for the big fat cheque from VW/Audi for 'miss selling' me my Audi A4 Quattro Allroad with dodgy emmisions so I can get my next boat.. My 'no win - no fee' chappy tells me the dosh is imminent now ...

Though, to be fair (with reference to the other thread concerning BC23 towing weights) it is an excellent car that handles the whole rig quite comfortably - I think its braked towing limitations are in the region of 1800 kg. I've had the 'software modification'  done and it does not seem to make any difference to performance.. - and I'd be blaming the dodgy emmissions on the dog all that time ...