Q: How to rig Asymmetric Spinnaker on a BRe?

[Sea Simon]

Help please.
I have quite a bit of experience of conventional spinnakers, but not of asymetric.

Having purchased Peter C's spinnaker, I am struggling a little to see from the site/instruction booklets exactly how to rig it on a BRe, as opposed to a BR.
As it's second hand, I'm trying not to pester the yard at this busy time of year!
My BRe has a conventional jib, on a selden roller furler,  and a plank sprit.

The "official"  Swallow u tubes (BRe 28 light blue sail) appear to show a BRe, very similar set up to mine, but with the forestay removed, and the jib furler  tack connected directly above the bobstay where my
Fore stay foot is attached.
Rory Clarke's testimonial page on the sales site, BRe 25, appears to show similar to the utube of 28.
Most interestingly, no forestay?
I would much prefer to keep my fore stay if possible.

Halyard. My main concern is the attachment of the head of the sail/halyard block at the mast, which would appear to be at the forestay connection, not the (apparently more substantial) jib halyard connection at the hounds.

Sheets.  I have some spare ratchet blocks from another boat (perhaps a little too big at 65mm, but at that price, they will have to do for now!). I have seen photos of attachments at aft mooring cleats (seems the obvious place to me?) Yet in the official videos, they seem to be attached adjacent to the mizzen chhek blocks on the gunnels at about mid ships. To what?

Any thoughts?
Photos would be very helpful.
Thanks.

[Peter T]

I have no experience of setting and sailing with the spinnaker on a BRE yet but I have just rigged it on my new BRE ready to gain some experience tomorrow.

My boat does still have its forestay rigged and the foot is run through an eye forward of the forestay.  Matt tells me that some have removed their forestays.

Halyard
The spinnaker halyard needs to run from a point above the position of the jib halyard and the forestay (as you wish to retain it) but I am not sure precisely what that point is.  It seems likely that this position is quite critical in order to achieve the correct sail shape.  I think it is possible that you might have bought a BR20 spinnaker so this might also be a factor i.e. I don’t know if the shape and size of the BR20 spinnaker is different from that of the standard BRE spinnaker. Either way, perhaps someone who has their mast down at the moment could look at this more closely.

Sheets
The standard arrangement now is for the auto ratchet blocks to be attached to loops of line which are fed through and looped round the aft cleats.  This didn’t suit me as it is difficult to leave the sheets rigged and still use the cleats for mooring so, after discussing this with Matt, I have this evening attached a couple of 40mm ratchet blocks to the forward facing edge of the gunnel immediately behind the mizzen cheek blocks (exactly as in the videos).  These can be bolted through the grp or, as I have just done, screwed through to blocks shaped to the inside profile of the gunnel.  This is a bit tricky as you can’t easily achieve the correct drilling angle because access is restricted by the forward part of the gunnel.  I overcame this by starting with a very fine drill bit that I bent gently as I was drilling and then gradually worked up to the correct size.  Each slightly larger drill bit tends to follow the route pf the previous one, again with some gentle bending.  Whichever option you choose you will need to lie down on your back inside the lockers or appoint someone else to do this on your behalf.

[Sea Simon]

Many thank for your help Peter, hope today's trip goes well. Would be pleased to hear more of your experiences with the Assy on your BRe.

It's the spin halyard arrangement/attachment that is particularly puzzling me atm. A more details, and especially phots would be very gratefully received.
 I want to try to keep the fore stay as my boat spends the summer on a swing mooring out in the river, and I am still regularly travelling for work, so the doubling up gives me a little more comfort during my absences!

My sprit has 3 eys of varying kinds on the top surface, and one on the bottom for the bobstay.
The foremost/outer top is a less substantial single eye bolt arrangement, i plan to use that for the assy tack, with a line back to a spare clam cleat on the cabin top.
 The other two are staple types, thru bolted. Next in/aft is the forestay, above the bob stay. Most aft/inner, is the jib tack on a rigging toggle arrangement.

I note your comments re the cut of BRe v BR assy, and I too had reflected on this. I accept my budget limtatons, may well mean some compromise. If too bad I will sell on, and buy the  correct item next winter.....once SWMBO has had some new curtains/cushions etc at home ;-)
I have way too much money tied up in toys atm, but at least one other boat has now gone, this week. Still duplicated on the racing dinghy front tho!

[Peter T]

Simon

The spinnaker halyard attachment point looks (from my viewpoint on the deck) to be approximately 10 ins above the fore-stay attachment point and uses the same type of strap fitting.  I would however check the precise position with Matt at the yard before drilling holes and riveting in case there is a strengthened area that you should be aiming at.  As you may know there are special rivets for riveting into carbon, e.g.

https://www.coastwatersports.co.uk/carbon-rivets-rivets-for-riveting-to-carbon-each-p-5932.html?utm_campaign=products&utm_medium=BaseFeed1&utm_source=GoogleBase1

As mentioned in my pm, the foremost eye is the fitting designed specifically for the spinnaker tack.

Regards

Peter

[Robin]

I have been using the asymmetric with the boat un-ballasted. Expect some hairy moments but a big smile.
To drop I am simply dragging it down into a sailbag which works in a fashion but can be messy in a good breeze.
Has anyone made themselves any sort of chute or bag from which to launch it on the deck?

[Sea Simon]

That's really very helpful Peter, thanks.

The mast has a clearly visible "reinforcement" area, at both the gooseneck and hounds positions, and this seems to extend up above the hounds/fore sail attachment. On my boat the main triangulation at mast upper, is the jib halyard and the shrouds, above this is a lighter strap fitting for the forestay attachment.
Of course, the lower arrangement is therefore something of a compromise, in that the jib halyard attachment to the sprit is not aligned above the bob stay, as this is where the forestay is attached. The plank sprit is pretty hefty here tho,  sure that's been thought about.

There appears to be enough spare height in the reinforcement area above the current forestay attachment to add a strap for the spinny halyard block.

If i can get no more info here, i will have to pester the yard for details of the exact location, and maybe buy that halyard block mast strap....and some carbon friendly pop rivets.

[Sea Simon]

I have been using the asymmetric with the boat un-ballasted. Expect some hairy moments but a big smile.
To drop I am simply dragging it down into a sailbag which works in a fashion but can be messy in a good breeze.
Has anyone made themselves any sort of chute or bag from which to launch it on the deck?

Thanks Robin, but...

I don't think I will be attempting this manoeuvre unballasted, this year.....neither crew nor i have enough experience in the boat.

My searches re my main query revealed some have a turtle bag that rigs rn the companion way, and this is what i have used on several other boats of this size/type.
This however creates difficulties in simultaneously fitting the wash boards, and I have seen more than one small cruiser/racer sunk as a consequence. Last i recall was a Hunter "Formula one".
Pre-rigging, with The bottomless bucket and elastic bands method is excellent for cruising, or maybe a race around the nav marks, with long periods between downwind legs.
Of course these days we should be thinking about turtle (sea creature - not the bag sort) friendly elastic bands?

[johnguy]

I use the asymmetric on my Bre right out of the cabin and messily right bag in again, and only bag it when on way back to berth. Was sailing offshore Poole this weekend with asymmetric up for all legs with wind abeam or aft, glorious bowling along. Bit of a faff to rig before leaving berth and messy up and down but great fun. Would like a simpler solution though like a nice neat tube so I could use it for round the cans racing, currently takes too long to up and down. Also the tack outhaul jamming cleat is useless, need always to take a turn or it flies out.

[Sea Simon]

That's really very helpful Peter, thanks.

The mast has a clearly visible "reinforcement" area, at both the gooseneck and hounds....

Of course, the lower arrangement is therefore something of a compromise, in that the jib halyard attachment to the sprit is not aligned above the bob stay, as this is where the forestay is attached. The plank sprit is pretty hefty here tho,  sure that's been thought about.

Sorry for my error.
I re examined this yesterday on my boat
My jib luff IS the main fore mast support.
The jib tack is attached to a rigging toggle, directly above the bob stay. The head or halyard block attachment is at the same vertical point on the mast as the shrouds. They share a common mast band fitting.
The separate fore stay attachment to the sprit is about 5 inches ford of the jib tack. The stay head about the same above the shrouds/jib mast band. The stay head is attached to a much simpler/lighter tang fitting.

Added 4/7
Further to the above, finding that my factory jib halyard is still stretching too much for my liking, even after some quite heavy wind sailing.

Changing to lower-stretch cruising dyneema, available in a rather fetching buff colour from
https://shop.classicmarine.co.uk/8-mm-cruising-dyneema-buff.html

Have not been able to find any alternative supplier of this material, in this finish.
Factory jib halyard will move to the spinni

[johnmkhubbard]

I have been having fun with a new  gennaker this season - some hairy moments but we are getting better.

First point our mast came with the gennaker halyard fitting  in place above the jib fitting. New kits include the fitting to screw on to the mast. Peter at Swallow Yachts will advise.
we don't bother with the forward shroud  it just gets in the ways - we tie it to the starboard shroud until the winter.

we have been racing at Warsash sailing club on handicap in the Solent so need to be able to launch fast. the problem is that if launching from a bag in the cabin you have to choose which side to launch from because its hard to launch to windward in a medium blow. But in a race we found that we did not know this in advance.

So i am thinking about adding a shute/bag on the foredeck  similar to the brilliant arrangement we had on a Laser 3000. On that boat the gennaker halyard ran down the mast through the bag and then attached to the gennaker in two places. when lowering the rope deflated the sail and then pulled it into the bag along with the sheets and tack. I think the tack on the BRe would be fixed but the rest could operate as above. The question is can this bag  be on the foredeck without snagging the jib and furling drum mechanism? if this works the launch of the sail would be sufficiently forward to work on either side of the wind.

On recent experience the sheets are too long tailing back to the rear cleats and more than once the lazy sheet has dropped under the boat and snagged on the centre plate ( its not always prudent to raise it on a short run) I am inclined to move to blocks amidships.

That said in our last race in light winds it made a big difference and got us home in first place so it was worth the effort.

[Peter T]

That is very interesting John, I am in the very early stages of trying the spinnaker myself.  Gybing with the forestay in place seems too difficult so it may have to go but, in the meantime,  I am trying gybing round the front of the luff first.  Seems much easier, except for the lazy sheet’s enthusiasm for diving under the boat.  To try and overcome this I am about to try some lighter weight sheets (340 grams rather than the 1.1 kgs for the standard sheets) and have just  fitted a short carbon tube on the end of the bowsprit to catch the sheet.

The Laser 3000 shute/bag sounds interesting.

[Peter Cockerton]

Expensive option I know but have you considered the top down furling kit, if you search the forum a number of posts exist on the subject and very positive reviews if I remember correctly. I had limited success with the cheap RWO bottom continuous furler when flying the asymmetric, it tended to to tightly wind the sail at the bottom and loosely at the top, ok in light winds but if the wind picked up whilst the sail was furled it tended to blow out at the top. My code zero sail furls very well with the RWO furler. Tacking is very straight forward without furling also.

Peter C

[Peter Taylor]

Expensive option I know but have you considered the top down furling kit

I'm not sure how relevant this is to the BRe but this year on my BC20 I'm using a top-down furling asymmetric. In previous years I've used an asymmetric lots of times by launching it "from a bucket" but, sailing single handed, once I had used it I hardly ever had time to sort it out in order to reset it, for example on a different tack. I sail in the Solent and there are usually too many other boats around to spend time repacking a spinnaker.

Having read the efforts to use furling spinnakers on other threads on the forum (e.g. http://www.swallowyachtsassociation.org/smf/index.php/topic,1078 ) I decided to treat myself to a complete "turnkey" spinnaker and furling system from Hyde Sails ordered through Swallow Yachts. The latter proved a benefit since the SY rigger, Peter, had to sort out problems with the system before it was ready for me to collect. The new spinnaker is a different luff length and has different corner reinforcement compared to my previous one.

Having now used it a few times I'm very happy with it. The system works well enough that tacking downwind by furling and unfurling the asymmetric during each gybe is an easy option (famous last words!). In effect I can use the asymmetric several times during a trip, unfurling it on either tack, without having to go forward.

The only big downside is the cost - at around £1.5K for the sail+furler system (furling drum, torsion cable, continuous furling line, double lead and cam-cleat)+turtle it's a very expensive option. However putting ones own system together is not cheap and carries more risk of failure.

Peter

[Sea Simon]

Well, Peter Taylors top down furler is what I would like, but....atm too expensive for me! Facinating stuff though P, I think this info would warrant a thread of its own?

My Rigging is now complete, just in time for the "endless summer" to break; 48 knots southerly here early this morning!

Info/LI's useful to others?
1. We had a brief "test fly", while secured to the mooring, and a brief trip out (spini halyard on forestay attachment at that time - we wanted to try to sort sheet leads/blocks), and found that the spinni blocks cow-hitched onto the aft mooring cleats seemed too far aft for us, and fouled both the main sheet and the helmsman to a degree that we were not comfortable with.
2. Spinni sheet blocks- consequently, I have fitted 8mm stainless eye bolts in the coaming recesses iwo the mizzen cam cleats P & S. Access underneath is easy, and there is a large (embedded ply?) backing piece already in that area. Only one D8 hole each needed. Advantage is that the eye may then also be used to secure fenders/moorings/traveller too? Selden D 40mm ratchet blocks with swivels are then cow-hitched to these eyes, using dyneema strops.
3. Sheets - tried with D 8mm odd bits of poly-braid that we had "spare". Easy on the hands, but clearly too heavy for light winds, and such a small sail. Have obtained a single long length of D 5mm matt poly braid, to be cow hitched (and sewn) as clew lines. This will also reduce the need for knots (snags & weight) on the clew of the sail.
4. Mast tang. The yard kindly supplied the additional strap (standard RWO brand item, same as that for the forestay - needed a little "tweaking" to match mast section) and appropriate fasteners, at a very reasonable cost. Their stated location was 240mm above the forestay attachment. The carbon fibre friendly rivets seem no easier to "pop" than the Monel ones I have usd on alloy spars  before - I really wish I'd had a better rivet gun, but (job already started - i.e. holes drilled!) I managed, eventually! A Heavy Duty Long Arm riveter will be on my shopping list. Very sharp Cobalt drills did a neat job. Epoxy was applied to the holes, and the back of the strap, riveted up while still wet.
5. Halyard - I have re-purposed my old main halyard, obviously plenty of length there. My boat has a spare line-lead & clutch available. The originlal jibhalyard proved to be too short as a spinni halyard, as we needed more length to rig up the sail in the cabin hatchway, and for it not to bounce out in a seaway.
6. Tack line & cleat - It didn't take very much enthusiastic trimming/surging of the tack line (D 5 mm hard dyneema type stuff that we had spare) to find that the standard soft plastic Clamcleats on the cabin top are not up to the job; just to be sure my crew bu99ered up both of them! These cleats are readily "cut" by hard ropes, and very quickly loose their grip. So I have had to change them both for Clamcleats hard-anodised racing versions. Not the end of the world at £6.50 each, and easily changed out like-for-like; they are through-bolted, not screwed down (my boat has a ply headlining, so this was not immediately obvious).

Now to sea.....well maybe "tomorrow"

Temporarily making-off the fore stay, out of the way while racing, seems a sensible approach; we will try that idea too.

Sorry for long post - but hope these details may perhaps prove useful to others?

[Peter T]

I have been trying gybing the spinnaker round the front i.e. round the front of the luff which failed miserably with the standard heavyweight sheets but works surprisingly well (so far) with light weight dyneema sheets, tapered to make them even lighter, plus a DIY sheet catcher extension to the bowsprit (to stop the lazy sheet going under the boat).  My mark 1 sheet catcher was a short length of carbon tube which worked OK except that it was quite easy to loop the sheet round it so I now have an even more cunning mark 2 version which should solve that problem.