Author Topic: What to look for when buying a used BR20?  (Read 14541 times)

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Uluxtax

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What to look for when buying a used BR20?
« on: 10 Oct 2018, 22:23 »
Hi everyone!
I consider buying a used Bayraider from 2008 and wonder what to look for? I have tried to look around in this forum and I have found leaking hatches and cockpit lockers, selfbailers that doesn't work properly, rudder bolt nuts coming off, etc but what is the most important parts to check, these that you really want to do something about after sailing the boat for a while. Which are the weak points of this boat model? And are there any upgrade "musts"?
Please also tell me the best things about the BR20 except what the yard says in its website and what you can tell from pictures.

Best regards / Måns

Peter Cockerton

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Re: What to look for when buying a used BR20?
« Reply #1 on: 11 Oct 2018, 08:48 »
Mans

Are you considering a GRP or WE boat

PeterC
Bayraider 20 mk2
Larger jib set on bowsprit with AeroLuff spar
USA rig
Carbon Fibre main boom with sail stack pack
Epropulsion Spirit Plus Outboard

Uluxtax

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Re: What to look for when buying a used BR20?
« Reply #2 on: 11 Oct 2018, 12:44 »
Peter
GRP or actually GRE (but it doesn't make much difference I suppose).

/ Måns

Peter Cockerton

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Re: What to look for when buying a used BR20?
« Reply #3 on: 11 Oct 2018, 13:38 »
Mans

Owned my GRP BR20 since 2011 (built 2009) and had many hrs of great relaxing sailing in her, very good boat for family and solo sailing.
The ballast and versatile rig supports safe sailing in all the conditions I have found myself out in and that include some strong wind and big swells.

Now to answer your question on issues, if you use the search criteria in this forum you will find more detail of the issues below, someone may post the shortcuts for you.

Check the centerboard swivel pin is secure, on my boat and several others the pin "cheeks" designed to provide "stops" to prevent lateral movement of the pin failed and a mod was issued to fit metal "L" shaped brackets bolted through the hull as a fix for this.

Check the metal strap/bracket which straddles the mizzen mast drop in fixing point to ensure the fixing screws/bolts are tight, on my boat the yard had used screws into the GRP with no visible wood backing behind the GRP. To get access to fix this problem I had to install a hatch in the outboard well roof and fit nuts and bolts for the bracket.

Check the locker hinge brackets are secure in the hull, again screws into GRP with no sign of wood behind the GRP to hold the screws, no easy solution to this as access is very difficult.

Check the locker lids have been modified to prevent the lockers filling with water when large amounts of water come over the side of the boat; an official mod kit is available from the yard for this now.

Check to see if the ballast tank drainage "bungs/stoppers are installed in the wall of the sump facing the tanks, these are optional for assisting the draining of the tank, the front tank auto drainers I have never found to be that efficient.

Check the mast tabernacle fixing screws are tight and don't just spin when trying to tighten, the tabernacle was designed to pull out of the deck under mast failure conditions and not take a section of the GRP with it, unfortunately I found screw fixing problems with this design and ended up putting a wood backing block under the GRP inside the boat.

I do not use the boat for overnight accommodation so my list of upgrade musts is minimal.

1) Fit a pair of Whale hand pumps on the transom with cross fed inlet pipes so you can pump the water out of the cockpit on either tack.
2) Fit a plate to the front of the centerboard slot to reduce the "water spout" that enters the cockpit under fast sailing condition.
3) Modify the mizzen mast sheeting arrangements ( see library) this prevents the mizzen passing through 180 degrees when the wind is behind you and the sheets slip out of the cam cleat.
4) Fit a TackTick wind instrument

Purely my views from my experiences over the years with my 2009 GRP Bayraider.

Peter C






Bayraider 20 mk2
Larger jib set on bowsprit with AeroLuff spar
USA rig
Carbon Fibre main boom with sail stack pack
Epropulsion Spirit Plus Outboard

Graham W

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Re: What to look for when buying a used BR20?
« Reply #4 on: 11 Oct 2018, 20:15 »
Hi Måns,

The GRE and GRP versions of the BR20 are a bit different and may have subtly different issues.  I can only speak for my GRP BR20, which I have had some astonishing adventures in.

Because it is built for lightness, trailability and speed, the BR20 is more like a racehorse than a carthorse.  Some non-Swallow boats are so strongly and simply built that, major design flaws apart, things tend not to go wrong that often.  The BR20 is exceptionally well designed but things can go wrong if it is not checked over regularly, particularly if it is raced or if trailed long distances.  This is a list of the things that have needed attention on my boat, which has been regularly raced and trailed very long distances across Europe http://www.swallowyachtsassociation.org/smf/index.php/topic,1341.msg9646.html#msg9646.  Don’t let the list put you off - nearly everything mentioned is easily fixed if caught in time. My only major problem was a mast overboard, which was due to a failure to check and mouse a shroud shackle.

The trailer is a different beast altogether - somewhat agricultural (if a UK version) and it can be prone to embarrassing and costly failures.  If you get a GRP BR20 and the trailer is unbraked, you are right on the limit of the amount of weight that it can deal with, which tends to accentuate weaknesses. The GRE BR20 is quite a bit lighter.  Here’s a tongue-in-cheek manifesto based on multiple trailer problems that I have experienced while covering thousands of miles http://www.swallowyachtsassociation.org/smf/index.php/topic,1151.msg8086.html#msg8086. The worst failure, to the winch post, happened after I wrote the manifesto and is described here http://www.swallowyachtsassociation.org/smf/index.php/topic,1182.msg8803.html#msg8803.  This has happened to at least three other BR20 trailers.

If you are going to do serious mileage with your trailer, you should budget for upgrades if these have not been undertaken already.  If you are just doing the odd short journey, you probably can be a bit more relaxed about things.

Good luck with your purchase.  Where are you going to sail?
Graham
Gunter-rigged GRP BR20 #59 Turaco III

Uluxtax

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Re: What to look for when buying a used BR20?
« Reply #5 on: 25 Apr 2019, 11:56 »
Peter and Graham

Many thanks for your advices. I didn't get a chance to see the boat last autumn but this weekend I will check it out and if the weather is OK also have a test sail. I found out that the boat named "Pauli" was announced here in janauary 2015 and in that post it is specified as a GRP, not GRE.

Your long list of issues is a little bit discouraging but hopefully there isn't too many screws loose. Today I sail a meginjolle which is not so sofisticated but very robust with almost nothing that can fail. But I hope the sailing characteristics and handling will be better with a Bayraider. I don't think any of your suggested mods have been done except for the topping lift. I'm most concerned about the centreboard pivot pin. Btw is it easy to get the centreboard out of the case? I need to get rid of the paint or seal it since all toxic paint are forbidden where I will moor my boat in lake Mälaren close to Stockholm.

Best regards / Måns

Graham W

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Re: What to look for when buying a used BR20?
« Reply #6 on: 25 Apr 2019, 18:54 »
Måns,

Don’t be discouraged by the lists - as long as the items are attended to when they begin to go wrong, no lasting damage is done.  On the bright side, any problems found could be seen as a negotiating opportunity.  If you enjoy fettling (not sure that there is a direct translation), then sorting the boat out can be fun, even if you haven’t done it before. The trailer is a different matter but maybe yours was made in Germany....

The centreboard is attached around the pivot pin with a steel bracket and is fairly easy to remove.  See the attached photo taken by Colin Morley from underneath his boat, which shows the pin before reinforcing steel brackets have been installed at either end.  Remove the uphaul and downhaul lines from the boat (but not from the centreboard), undo two sets of four screws in the steel bracket (in the middle of the photo) and the centreboard should be free of the pivot pin. However, the bracket may need to be prised off if the sealant between it and the centreboard is still working.  Watch out, as the centreboard is very heavy and shouldn’t be allowed to crash to the ground.

Lake Mälaren looks very interesting and ideal for a BayRaider.  Good luck!
Graham
Gunter-rigged GRP BR20 #59 Turaco III

Uluxtax

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Re: What to look for when buying a used BR20?
« Reply #7 on: 26 Apr 2019, 11:41 »
Thanks Graham!
The trailer is an Easyline, a brand of the Brenderup Group and I think they are made in Scandinavia. They seem to be OK.

Graham W

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Re: What to look for when buying a used BR20?
« Reply #8 on: 26 Apr 2019, 18:26 »
The trailer is an Easyline, a brand of the Brenderup Group and I think they are made in Scandinavia.

Much better than what we have here in the UK but still not as good as what they manufacture in the US and Australia.
Graham
Gunter-rigged GRP BR20 #59 Turaco III

Uluxtax

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Re: What to look for when buying a used BR20?
« Reply #9 on: 02 May 2019, 15:11 »
Graham
I hope so since the first journey would be about 370 miles. :)

I had a look at the boat this weekend and also took her for a trip. One thing that puzzled the owner was that there was much water in the sump even with the self bailer open. As it corresponded to the level in the outboard well I guess it came from a leaking hatch between the sump and the well.

Another thing puzzled us was that the aft part of jib boom was stucked on the foredeck when beating, hanging too low.

Also we had problem to get the sprayhood up because it couldn't pass the downhaul track. How do you solve that?

Is there any pictures of the flaps in the outboard well in the forum? On this boat these were made of fairly thin clear plastic and there was quite much turbulence in the well, especially when motoring. I think I have seen pictures of a more sturdy type of white plastic.

The pivot pin has no reinforcing steele brackets as seen in the picture so I guess it should be added to on the safe side.

Again, many thanks for your advices!

/ Måns

Matthew P

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Re: What to look for when buying a used BR20?
« Reply #10 on: 02 May 2019, 20:38 »
Hi Måns

Graham and others may have better ideas but from my experience with Gladys, a similar boat, I suggest:

a) Water in the sump is nothing to worry about but should not flood the cockpit floor in normal situations.  The leak is likely to be through the self-bailer which is probably ineffective but again nothing to worry about.  In fact, the boat is designed so that the cockpit floor is above the water line - just - and having the bailer open allows surplus water to drain out.  It doesn't matter that it will not clear the sump.

Incidentally I have  a Gusher Titan pump which is the biggest I can fit and significantly higher capacity than the usual Chimp.  I fitted a "Y valve so I can switch between pumping out the ballast tank and the sump. Two pumps, one each side, would be even better because one will always be within reach on either tack.

Pumping out the ballast tank is hardly ever necessary if you know the lazy way to empty the ballast tank when winching it onto the trailer.  To do this I remove the round cover between sump and outboard well, open the ballast tank hatch behind the centre board and - most importantly - open one of the forward ballast tank hatch covers to let air into the tank as it drains.  The water then freely drains out of the ballast tank as the front of the boat is raised onto the trailer.  The small amount of water remaining is drained by opening the drain plug once the boat is on the trailer.  I leave the drain plug open and then usually forget to put it back in next time I launch which is why I sometimes need to pump out the unwanted ballast while sailing in calm weather!

b) If the aft end of jib boom is sticking on the deck then either there is not enough tension in the fore-stay or the shrouds  are too slack, or both.    The way to achieve this is to let the jib boom hang over the side of the deck with the jib furled while you tighten the fore-stay and then lift it into position as you unfurl the sail.  The fore-stay tension should be enough for the end of the jib boom to take as much effort as a suitcase to lift - I guess about 10Kg - with the jib unfurled.  This seems a bit scary but I've not known it break under normal use.  If I'm feeling nervous I tie a slightly slack line from the towing U bolt to the bottom of the fore-stay.  If the boom breaks (unlikely) this will prevent the mast from falling into the cockpit, although it could not be sailed without further attention.  I like things big and I like belts and braces if weight limits allow.

Gladys habitually slackens her shrouds when sailing which I've never solved but I don't really think it matters and in the hands of Mr Peers The Sailing Master did not seem to effect her ability to win races

c) Interference between the mast down haul track and hood sounds as though it may be caused by lack of tension in the for-stay, as discussed above.

d) The boats are fitted with flexible flaps in the outboard well when they are built.  These work quite well until after a few years they get tired and bent.  A hot air gun or my wife's hair drier restores them to order but they are never quite as springy as they should be.  I now use a plywood plug to partly fill the outboard hole which is a wet operation to fit but effective.  It is a good idea to leave a hole big enough to fit easily around the outboard shaft because if the cockpit does ever get swamped (very rare) then water from the cockpit needs to be able to flow over the top of the internal outboard transom (the hefty plank) and out of the boat. Provided water can escape over the top of the outboard transom and not get trapped in a sealed off outboard well the Bayraider's built-in buoyancy system will prevent the cockpit flooding above the lockers.  Unless the helm insists on sailing the boat on its side, which The Sailing Master never does - and I don't either.

e) The pivot pin needs attention unless the boat was built after the yard modified the design.  I'm sure Swallow Yachts can advise on this if you tell them the serial number of the boat.

One final check is to see that the bottom of the boat has not be stressed by over-tightening and misplacement of the trailer straps. Look for permanent distortion (under no-load) where bottom of the boat rests on the rollers.  Sometimes owners strap DOWN the bow which means the hull is stiffening the trailer as it flexes.  I place Gladys's straps across the deck just behind the mast foot which is above the strong internal arch and the second strap over the cockpit at the rear of the trailer.  The rear strap is firm but not tight and has a twist in the middle to stop it humming in the wind.  The winch is left attached so that the winch strap is horizontal and belt-and-braces stops the boa rolling off backwards but allows the trailer to flex under the boat.  I also fit a long sailboard tie-down around the hull only and under the centre board to support it and so the weight of the raised centre board on the trailer does not strain the up-haul.

Finally the Bayraider is a fantastic boat and I look forward to another 10 years, at least, of fun with Gladys.  She continues to give joy on family picnic expeditions and satisfaction on more serious cruises.  A very versatile boat. And I think Bayraiders look good too.

Matthew
BR20 Gladys


"Hilda", CLC Northeast[er], home build, epoxy ply, balanced lug
Previously "Tarika", BR17, yard built, epoxy-ply, gunter rigged
and "Gladys" BR20, GRP, gunter

Graham W

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Re: What to look for when buying a used BR20?
« Reply #11 on: 03 May 2019, 18:25 »
Måns,

I think Matthew has answered all your points.  I also made a wooden plug for my outboard well after the Venetian blinds started to deteriorate.

The self bailers in the well may not work very well if they are the wrong model (common on earlier BayRaiders) and unless you are doing at least four knots.  The best model is the externally mounted Andersen Mini, which works significantly better (but I think fits in the same hole) as the internally mounted Super Mini. I’m not sure why, it just does.
Graham
Gunter-rigged GRP BR20 #59 Turaco III

Uluxtax

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Re: What to look for when buying a used BR20?
« Reply #12 on: 04 May 2019, 10:19 »
Matthew

Thanks for more adivices. I guess you're right about the forestay tension. We had to lower the mast to pass a bridge and I probably didn't get it right when raising it again.

What should I look for to check distortion? The shape of the hull or local cracks?

/ Måns

Matthew P

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Re: What to look for when buying a used BR20?
« Reply #13 on: 04 May 2019, 23:41 »
Hi  Måns

Although I've seen many incorrectly strapped down boats I've only seen one Bayraider with visible distortion to the hull as a result of over-tightened straps so the chances are the one you are interested in is OK. 

I suppose damage could also occur from the boat being overloaded with kit when on the trailer, or the ballast tank not drained before towing over rough ground, or too-rigid suspension, or being driven at speed over bumps or....... etc.  A pattern of visible cracks around the roller supports would be obvious cause for concern although I've not seen this.  I would be particularly concerned if there is distortion showing with the hull resting under its own weight and not strapped down.

Incidentally, superficial gel-coat scratches resulting from rocks etc would not concern me unless they penetrate deep into the glass fibre matrix, although they may look ugly.   

I think common sense will guide you, and most problems are fixable, so if you like the look of the Bayraider then buy one and join the rest of us who have had so much enjoyment from them.

Matthew
BR20 Gladys


 
"Hilda", CLC Northeast[er], home build, epoxy ply, balanced lug
Previously "Tarika", BR17, yard built, epoxy-ply, gunter rigged
and "Gladys" BR20, GRP, gunter

JOD

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Re: What to look for when buying a used BR20?
« Reply #14 on: 13 May 2019, 17:20 »
I bought a B Raider recently before knowing about the Owners Assn. I'd like to post some questions. This message is a reply to an existing post but how is a new topic started?
JOD