Leaking Self Baler

[martin scott]

Having launched my BRe (Blue Moon) yesterday to go onto its summer mooring, I found one of the cockpit self balers leaking seawater into the sump. So returned to dry land. Reading the thread from 3 years ago one piece of advice was to leave a self baler open to drain rain water from the cockpit - the ingress of seawater would only reach just over the cockpit floor before stopping. With a full ballast tank, however, would water ingress become excessive and maybe get into the lockers? I'm fitting an automatic bilge pump but don't want to rely on it. Any thought would be appreciated. Thanks.     

[Peter Cockerton]

https://www.swallowyachtsassociation.org/smf/index.php/topic,1806.msg12363.html#msg12363

This discusses the issue and should be re-assuring to you

Peter C

[Graham W]

Martin,

Here’s some helpful stuff on mending Andersen self-bailers, if that’s the type that’s leaking https://optistuff.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/ANDERSEN_BAILER_REPAIR.pdf

The plumber’s grease trick might be worth trying first, especially as the service kits are quite expensive.  However, it’s not clear which type to use -  the Black Swan brand says not to use on rubber. If grease doesn’t work or you don’t want to take the risk, the rubber gasket has probably shrunk over the years and needs replacing. On externally mounted models this is easy as long as the boat is on its trailer.  I don’t know about the internally mounted types - they seem a bit more complicated (and on BayRaiders don’t work as well).

[martin scott]

Thanks for the advice, Peter & Graham. Have tried the easy option using grease on the gasket which seems to work pretty well. May put new gaskets on the to-do list for next winter. Also installed an auto bilge pump just to be on the safe side. Great to be back sailing again - almost feels like normality returning.   

[Graham W]

Have tried the easy option using grease on the gasket which seems to work pretty well.

Which grease did you use? Another item to put on my routine maintenance list.

[Sea Simon]

I've always used silicon grease for this type of duty. Silicon grease will not damage most rubbers, unlike petroleum greases. I've also got an old tub of red "rubber grease", used for assembling hydraulic systems here, but tend not to use that. I think it's vegetable based? It's often available cheaply in small sachets at motor factors.

On my boat, I've found that perseverance with a weepy bailer often pays off. I guess that it's often been a small foreign object (grit, weed or similar?)  Often sorts itself out after a few days, and open/closed cycles. The leak then just stops. The sticky grease has the disadvantage of attracting this sort of debris.

Regarding the flooding, in the aft well. Do a few searches, there is a lot of very helpful info on here, I've pinched some of these ideas/experiences.

As my boat generally lives all season on a mid river swing mooring, I fill my ballast tank, burp it by going right forward, then force a medium size fender into the full ballast tank. I find this presses up the ballast tank, yet acts as a damper, rather like those in a hydraulic accumulator.
 As it also displaces water, it will increase the freeboard, hence reduce the level of any flood water inside the moored boat, should the bailers be left open. Mine doesn't come above the lip of the sump, even with me inside the boat.
I've recently added copperbot anti foul to the sump, but otherwise the interior of the boat stays clean and dry.

[Matthew P]

Is it worth repeating that on a BR20 it doesn't matter much if the self-bailer in the cockpit sump leaks?
Water in the cockpit sump looks untidy but does little harm if it is allowed to drain through the self-bailer.

The cockpit sump self-bailer should probably be left open at anchor on a mooring because the clever water ballast system is designed so that the cockpit floor drains and be slightly above the water line, even with the ballast tanks full.  Incidentally my BR20 has expanded foam under the cockpit floor  fitted when the boat was built which I presume was as part of the system to keep the cockpit floor above the water line.

If the cockpit sump drain is not open there is the possibility that rain water etc will not drain away and accumulate inside the cockpit. This assumes the boat is trimmed level and not over-loaded.

As an aside, one of the many mistakes I have made is sealing-off the outboard well for racing.  In testing conditions the swamped cockpit could not drain water over the engine transom and out through the outboard aperture and the outboard well filled with water.  Energetic bailing with a big bucket was necessary. Learning point:- sealing the outboard well streamlines the bottom of the boat but should include a large drain. One interferes with the boat's design at your own risk!

Matthew
BR20 Gladys #23 

[Graham W]

As my boat generally lives all season on a mid river swing mooring, I fill my ballast tank, burp it by going right forward, then force a medium size fender into the full ballast tank. I find this presses up the ballast tank, yet acts as a damper, rather like those in a hydraulic accumulator.
As it also displaces water, it will increase the freeboard, hence reduce the level of any flood water inside the moored boat, should the bailers be left open. Mine doesn't come above the lip of the sump, even with me inside the boat.

Simon,

Interesting idea.  Does the fender roll around under the cockpit sole, making a disturbing noise like Rory’s bubbles in the BRe cuddy thread, or does it stay in one place?

[Graham W]

As an aside, one of the many mistakes I have made is sealing-off the outboard well for racing.  In testing conditions the swamped cockpit could not drain water over the engine transom and out through the outboard aperture and the outboard well filled with water.  Energetic bailing with a big bucket was necessary. Learning point:- sealing the outboard well streamlines the bottom of the boat but should include a large drain. One interferes with the boat's design at your own risk!

Matthew,

I’ve found a spare Andersen New Large bailer that I originally intended to install in the sump.  Install it in my outboard well blanking flap instead?  As Claus pointed out many years ago, when underway it would continuously suck out any water above the flap and lighten the stern.  And provided that the bailer was open when the boat was stopped, it could probably quickly drain most water pumped or let in to the well.  Alternatively, put in a large kayak scupper bung or two on a string in the flap - a sort of boating equivalent of ‘in case of emergency break glass’.  I’m not giving up my flap!

I’ve thought of installing a similar bung on a string low down in the wall of the port locker.  When I turtled, my port locker flooded because the asymmetric buoyancy system kept it underwater for a while but the starboard locker stayed completely dry.  Until I had bailed out the enormous amount of water in the locker, I had a significant list to port, which was unhelpful.

[Matthew P]

Good ideas Graham. Don't give up the flap!

Installing a self-bailer in a sealed out-board plate will help keep water down and having a quickly removable big bung or two is a good safety feature for clearing large amounts.

Attached photos show my old sealed plate system.  I've not used it for several years.
 The plywood plate  fits inside the outboard aperture with a thick rubber seal around it (never entirely reliable).  The plastic pipe fitting provides and exit for the (Titan) cockpit hand pump.  The round hatch provides access to the small handle on the external fairing plate  and assist installation. One of the attachments bolts has all the rubber seals stacked on it that fit beneath the penny washers. The hatch cover is a bit fiddly to open in an emergency so your idea for an emergency bung is helpful.

The white fairing plate is clamped to the inner and has a V shaped gap next to the transom to allow water to be discharged from the pump and/or the small hatch cover - if it can be opened soon enough to be useful. 

If I'm cruising I use a simple plate  modeled on yours.  Works well except for wet arm misery.  What I now want is a robust "bomb doors" solution comfortably operated by a piece of string when required to raise and lower the outboard, similar to the new SY Coast.  Any ideas?

Matthew
BR20 Gladys #23

   

[Graham W]

Matthew,

I can see that it might take a while to install or remove your intricate well cover.  Mine is quite quick, greatly helped by a large grab handle on the top. This doubles as a rest for the business end of the prop.  I was thinking of installing two bungs in the cover linked by string.  In case of flooding emergency, yank the string between them and out they both pop.  £3.54 for four from Shenzen, postage paid.  I just saw how much the New Large bailer must have cost me and I think I'll not use it on the well cover.

I remember seeing a two-part bomb door solution somewhere but can't find it.  Guy had an interesting transparent one door solution, which he installed with the lamellae still in place https://www.swallowyachtsassociation.org/smf/index.php/topic,843.msg8870.html#msg8870.  It could be adapted to make it more waterproof and without the lamellae.  But definitely keep the transparent idea, which is more often seen in superyachts.

[Matthew P]

Thank you Graham: "transparent [well cover] , which is more often seen in superyachts". I'm pleased to confirm Gladys already has this super-yacht feature, as well as other super yacht attributes.
 
Gladys's more humdrum "cruising" plate is also shown.  I agree it would benefit from a large handle similar to yours.

Matthew
Super-yacht BR20 Gladys #23

[Sea Simon]

As my boat generally lives all season on a mid river swing mooring, I fill my ballast tank, burp it by going right forward, then force a medium size fender into the full ballast tank. I find this presses up the ballast tank, yet acts as a damper, rather like those in a hydraulic accumulator.
As it also displaces water, it will increase the freeboard, hence reduce the level of any flood water inside the moored boat, should the bailers be left open. Mine doesn't come above the lip of the sump, even with me inside the boat.

Simon,

Interesting idea.  Does the fender roll around under the cockpit sole, making a disturbing noise like Rory’s bubbles in the BRe cuddy thread, or does it stay in one place?

No, it does not roll about, as it's trying to float/make surface within the water filled tank.
It seems to wedge itself firmly in position, just inside the main red/black hatch, although I've tethered it, just in case.
Besides slightly reducing overall displacement I believe it also has an effect similar to a hydraulic accumulator bladder, so helping to keep the tank pressed up "full", over temperature changes etc. This would also reduce moving water noises, although my prime reasoning was to make a "solid lump" of the water ballast with no free surface effect.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydraulic_accumulator

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_surface_effect

At least half the idea pinched off this forum, I forget author. Thanks!

[Sea Simon]

My rather more modest BRe has no well cover (yet!) Transparent or otherwise.

However it does have a "Demountable Bathyscope"!
https://www.osculati.com/en/11376-m-029757/demountable-bathyscope

I notice that they now do a lighted version, for that true mega-yacht effect at night.
 Mine a new old-stock mid winter purchase a few years back, at a rather more modest price.
This item was long-coveted due to fond memories of something similar glued together by my father out of a bucket and some perspex.
Highly recommended, great fun for kids young and old!

However, not very easy to use when actually afloat in a boat.

So, can your superyacht-like transparent flap combine the two functions? If so,  I might be after you for a template please!