Author Topic: Alternatives to Varnish for Masts and Spars  (Read 4168 times)

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Matthew P

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Alternatives to Varnish for Masts and Spars
« on: 16 Feb 2020, 19:46 »
5 years after I applied International Woodskin to Gladys's spars it's time to refinish them.  Woodskin has been OK but not great - not robust enough and too orange for my tastes. 

I'm a manufacturing engineer. I like to work hard at being idle and don't worry too much about aesthetics, so my objectives are:

a) robust enough not to need re-coating for as long as possible (except repairing inevitable knocks)
b) minimum number of initial applications.  2 or 3 for preference, assuming bare wood to start with.
c) not a supper-glossy yachty finish - but I'd prefer to avoid extreme orange or dark  finishes.

These criteria rule out Cetol (too soft), Deks Olje (frequent re-finishing), International Woodcoat (orange colour and not hard wearing enough).

Tim recommends a quality varnish tinned to 25% for 1st coat and progressively enriched to 100% for the penultimate with a 25% dilution to finish  (see https://www.swallowyachtsassociation.org/smf/index.php/topic,1790.0.html ). So far this looks favorite but before I start exercising my limited brush-man-ship on 5 expensive coats, has anyone experience of using 2-pack varnishes?  Or maybe an epoxy 1st coat for robustness and then varnish for UV protection to follow?

Matthew
Gladys BR20



"Hilda", CLC Northeast[er], home build, epoxy ply, balanced lug
Previously "Tarika", BR17, yard built, epoxy-ply, gunter rigged
and "Gladys" BR20, GRP, gunter

LuMi

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Re: Alternatives to Varnish for Masts and Spars
« Reply #1 on: 17 Feb 2020, 08:53 »
Hallo Matthew,
Holz braucht Luft zum atmen.
Alle meine Versuche mit Lacken ob mit Verdünnung oder ohne wären immer wieder im Ergebnis das selbe. ???? Sobald die Oberfläche beschädigt ist dringt Feuchtigkeit unter den Lack und die Folgen kennst du. 95% sehen noch gut aus 5% besserst du aus und es sieht nicht gut aus da der Farbton ganz anders ist. Also alles neu - oder?
Ich habe gerade meinen Fock und Besanbaum total vom Lack befreit und diese mit einem pigmentierten Oel behandelt. Die Pigmente sollen noch stärkeren UV Schutz bieten. Natürlich werde ich öfter mal nachpflegen müssen aber das ist erheblich einfacher als alles wieder neu aufzubauen, schleifen, abtapen und mehrfach lackieren.
Ich hoffe das ich damit auf Dauer einfacher pflegen kann und immer wieder eine gleichmäßige Optik erhalten kann.
Owatrol Textrol Golden Oak, für das Rigg
Owatrol Textrol Rustic Oak, für das dunkle Holz.

Viele Grüße nach England
Herzlich willkommen in Norddeutschland ????????️
BR 20, #39

Matthias


Jonathan Stuart

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Re: Alternatives to Varnish for Masts and Spars
« Reply #2 on: 17 Feb 2020, 09:12 »
This is Matthias's first post so I had to review and approve it. For those whose German is as limited as mine, here is Google's translation of his post...


Hello Matthew,

Wood needs air to breathe.

All my attempts with paints, whether with thinner or without, would always be the same in the result. ???? As soon as the surface is damaged, moisture penetrates under the paint and you know the consequences. 95% still look good 5% you look better and it doesn't look good because the color is completely different. So everything new - right?
I have just completely removed the paint from my jib and mooring and treated them with a pigmented oil. The pigments are said to offer even greater UV protection. Of course, I will have to clean up a lot more times, but that is much easier than rebuilding, sanding, taping and repainting.
I hope that I will be able to maintain it more easily in the long term and keep getting a uniform look.
Owatrol Textrol Golden Oak, for the rig
Owatrol Textrol Rustic Oak, for the dark wood.

Best regards to England
Welcome to Northern Germany ????  ️
BR 20, # 39

Matthias
Jonathan

Ex - BayCruiser 26 #11 "Bagpuss"
Ex - BayRaider Expedition #3 "Mallory"

Matthew P

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Re: Alternatives to Varnish for Masts and Spars
« Reply #3 on: 17 Feb 2020, 19:14 »
Danke Matthias

Owatrol Textrol seems similar to Deks Ojle, which Owatrol also sell.

I previously found Deks Ojle pleasant to use (I happen to like the smell) and effective but needs frequent re-coating.  Perhaps Textrol is more hard wearing. Please tell us how well Owatrol Textrol has worked for you after a few season's use.

Matthew
Gladys BR20
"Hilda", CLC Northeast[er], home build, epoxy ply, balanced lug
Previously "Tarika", BR17, yard built, epoxy-ply, gunter rigged
and "Gladys" BR20, GRP, gunter

Ged

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Re: Alternatives to Varnish for Masts and Spars
« Reply #4 on: 18 Feb 2020, 16:46 »
I've used 'Epifanes rapid clear' on my spars, it is a varnish but is quite thin and goes on easily and needs no sanding between coats.  They've now had 5 years of hard use and they are weathering the abuse well, I think I'll give them a touch up this year.  I made a new mizzen mast last year which I've Danished oiled with this stuff

https://danish-oil.com/

It's considerably better than the standard stuff (rustins / Liberon etc) that I've used before, it has far more oil and less solvents and seems to do in one coat what the others take five to achieve.
It's definitely not as hard wearing as the varnish but is easy to wipe on once or twice a year.

My favourite varnish quote comes from designer and maker of small boats John Welsford who always replies to 'whats the best varnish' with the answer 'white paint'
Ged
Storm 17 'Peewit'

Graham W

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Re: Alternatives to Varnish for Masts and Spars
« Reply #5 on: 18 Feb 2020, 21:31 »
My favourite varnish quote comes from designer and maker of small boats John Welsford who always replies to 'whats the best varnish' with the answer 'white paint'

I once owned a Lune Whammel, a distinctly agricultural sailing dinghy designed and built by the late Bill Bailiff, who used to be an industrial chemist.  He had a similar view - the mast, a hewn tree trunk, was coated in a non-marine white paint that never needed maintaining (Dulux?) and the ballast was old fertiliser bags full of gravel stowed under the cockpit boards.  It worked, sort of. Bill Bailiff originals can still be seen at the Glenridding end of Ullswater.
Graham
Gunter-rigged GRP BR20 #59 Turaco III

PeterDT

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Re: Alternatives to Varnish for Masts and Spars
« Reply #6 on: 26 Feb 2020, 21:53 »
Just finished varnishing my jib boom. I use Ruwa yacht varnish. Don’t know if this available in UK. This is old school stuff and works fine for me. Easy to apply in unheated rooms or outside, unlike epoxy. Glossy finish though. 3 layers, with light sanding.
Good luck with your choice!
Peter T

Michael Rogers

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Re: Alternatives to Varnish for Masts and Spars
« Reply #7 on: 28 Feb 2020, 18:54 »
Doing a 'search', I discover that between 2011 and 2018 I banged on intermittently about something called Seacoat, a one pot clear finish, which appeared on the market just when I was finishing my build of Cavatina (Trouper 12), and had a favourable review in Water Craft. I remember it for two reasons - 1) I used it and it was fantastic; 2) the firm who supplied it (and made it? - that was unclear) were exceptionally amiable and helpful people to deal with. Then suddenly nothing - website disappeared, phone number unobtainable. I searched, enquired, drew a total blank (it's all there in 'back numbers of this forum).

The spars on my boat are still done in the original 2011 Seacoat, and DO NOT NEED RE-DOING!! Amazing. What needed attention 3 seasons ago (2017)were the seat slats, also done in Seacoat back in 2011. The wear was due to abrasion, sliding my backside up and down them over the years (in perfectly normal sailing activities, you understand). I looked again for Seacoat, nothing again.

Someone - whose name I cannot recall, but to whom I am truly grateful - suggested something called 'Bonda Seal Clear, made by Bondaglass-Voss in Beckenham. It's described as a 'tough, flexible plastic coating for wood, metal, brick, concrete' (I quizzed the firm about Seacoat, and they denied any knowledge of it.) And, to judge by my now gleaming (but not glassy-gleaming) seat slats, that is what it is. No sign of wear after 3 seasons of bum-sliding, it might be Seacoat. Perhaps it is.....So I strongly recommend it.

Incidentally, commenting on the earlier contribution from Germany and the suggestion that 'wood needs air to breathe', I don't think it's that simple - or perhaps it is, and that statement isn't true. My first Swallowboats build was in 2004 (I think) - Cadenza, a Storm Petrel. I asked Nick and Matt Newland whether coating the ply panels in epoxy before assembly would be a good idea. The answer was, 'no, because wood needs air to breathe'. Seven years later, at the time of my second build, Swallowboats made a sort of policy statement in which they said they had reconsidered that previous view, they no longer held that 'wood must breathe' necessarily, and, in line with boat-building practice virtually everywhere (they emphasised that) they now recommended preliminary epoxy coating - and still do it so far as I know, when they are building with ply and epoxy (which is seldom these days). I suppose you could still argue about ply versus solid timber spars?

Michael Rogers   (Trouper 12 'Cavatina'

Graham W

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Re: Alternatives to Varnish for Masts and Spars
« Reply #8 on: 28 Feb 2020, 19:34 »
Michael,

It looks like Simon Aalders’s Seacoat went out of business c.2012 https://twitter.com/seacoat.  It’s probably not same person but there’s a Simon Aalders involved with a substance abuse care home.  The coating couldn’t now be this one, could it? Slightly different spelling and shellac- rather than polyurethane-based http://www.zinsseruk.com/product/sealcoat/

There is a Seacoat but certainly not the one you used! https://www.seacoat.com/
Graham
Gunter-rigged GRP BR20 #59 Turaco III

Michael Rogers

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Re: Alternatives to Varnish for Masts and Spars
« Reply #9 on: 28 Feb 2020, 21:55 »
That's amazing detective work, Graham! Spot on. 1) I recognise the design on the tin illustrated; 2) the exceptionally helpful guy on the phone was a Simon; 3) the date, 2012, for going out of business, is right. So that's what happened, for whatever reasons. The Zinsser Sealcoat sounds like something for internal use, not a tough marine finish (though I think the 'tough marine' line is often a bit of a con).

There can't be that many Simon Aalders around, can there? I'm intrigued.

I don't know whether Bonda Seal Clear is chemically related to my much-lamented Seacoat: it seems very similar. I remember that I had one problem with Seacoat - I simply could not get the lid off one of the tins they sent me, it had somehow sealed on. I tried everything short of a commercial tin-opener or a sledge hammer (shades of 'Three Men in a Boat'), and the still-unopened tin was a complete mess. I phoned 'Simon', and he sent me a replacement tin without charge - no problem with that one.

Matthew P

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Re: Alternatives to Varnish for Masts and Spars
« Reply #10 on: 03 Jun 2020, 13:20 »
A few months ago I followed Tim LM's suggestion on my BR20's wooden spars:

"On bare wood or ply having first sanded it smooth a first coat is applied with a 75% cut, that’s 1 part varnish to 3 parts white spirits. Leaving it to dry thoroughly a second coat is applied with a 50% cut. Again after drying a third coat with a 25% cut and then after drying a fourth pure varnish. This is left for some time to ensure it has quite gone off before lightly sanding and applying a final coat with a 25% cut. This last coat gives the shine to the varnish so a tack cloth is useful before putting it on but if this is not available then a lint free cloth damped with white spirit to make sure the surface is completely dust free."

International Schooner Gold is discontinued so I used International Original instead.

I'm pleased with the result - thanks Tim.

For the rails, rubbing strakes, thwart and various internal bits of teak that are vulnerable to scuffing and dinging I shall use Deks Ojle and live with touching it up (but enjoy the smell) at least once a season.


Matthew
BR20 Gladys #23
"Hilda", CLC Northeast[er], home build, epoxy ply, balanced lug
Previously "Tarika", BR17, yard built, epoxy-ply, gunter rigged
and "Gladys" BR20, GRP, gunter

MarkDarley

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Re: Alternatives to Varnish for Masts and Spars
« Reply #11 on: 30 Jun 2020, 14:55 »
White paint!
Mark
"Pippin"
Mark Darley,
Wooden Swallow Bayraider 20 "Pippin" and Baycruiser 23, “Foxwhelp” in UK
GRP Swallow Bayraider 20 "Kelpie" in Northern California. Yes, I am a bit of a Swallow believer!