Author Topic: BR20 questions regarding versatility of gunter/gaff rig  (Read 22688 times)

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Peter Cockerton

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Re: BR20 questions regarding versatility of gunter/gaff rig
« Reply #15 on: 07 May 2020, 10:30 »
Peter,

Have you published any photos yet of your new boat under sail?  I don’t remember seeing any.  A garden sailing photo would be good - in some ways it makes it easier to see how things are set up.

One of the big advantages of the Bermudan rig is the speed of mainsail reefing.  I think that if I was going down that route with a new BR20, not that that’s likely, I’d do what you have done and splash the cash on Aeroluff-style jib reefing too.

Graham

I have taken some snaps which hopefully show you what your looking for if not let me know.
You will see the end of the AeroLuff Spar attached to the furling drum, i have removed the sail whilst the boat is not being used. The thimble is solidly fixed to the metal collar which is then fixed to the carbon fibre spar. This supports the furling and reefing function of the spar.
To be clear this is the upgrade method where standard jib, drum and top spinner is utilized.

Peter C
Bayraider 20 mk2
Larger jib set on bowsprit with AeroLuff spar
USA rig
Carbon Fibre main boom with sail stack pack
Epropulsion Spirit Plus Outboard

Graham W

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Re: BR20 questions regarding versatility of gunter/gaff rig
« Reply #16 on: 08 May 2020, 10:52 »
Thanks Peter, I can feel some more hardware purchases coming on.  Photo 2 is a neat solution to a problem that I've had for years, which is that the jib sheet turning block incorporated into the oarlock base may be OK for the fairly low strain placed on it by a self-tacking jib but try it with anything a bit stronger and it tends to jam.

Do you have any photos of your full bowsprit set up?  I'm fiddling with mine in the garden at the moment and I'll post a photo of it when I'm done.
Graham
Gunter-rigged GRP BR20 #59 Turaco III

Peter Cockerton

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Re: BR20 questions regarding versatility of gunter/gaff rig
« Reply #17 on: 09 May 2020, 10:25 »
Thanks Peter, I can feel some more hardware purchases coming on.  Photo 2 is a neat solution to a problem that I've had for years, which is that the jib sheet turning block incorporated into the oarlock base may be OK for the fairly low strain placed on it by a self-tacking jib but try it with anything a bit stronger and it tends to jam.

Do you have any photos of your full bowsprit set up?  I'm fiddling with mine in the garden at the moment and I'll post a photo of it when I'm done.

Some more pictures for you Graham, if more detail needed let me know, yesterday i modified how the jib drum connected to the pad eye, the yard used a shackle from the pad eye to the drum, i didn't like that as the drum and feeder guide rotated until the shackle hit the pad eye so i removed some material from the side of the pad eye until the fork of the drum would fit over the pad eye, its now a better fixing i think.

On the previous posting showing the cheek block guiding the jib sheet into the rowlock moulding you will see the RWO cheek block, in my opinion the sheet size is too big for this model and it doesn't run freely through it, mulling whether to leave it and see, change sheet size down a notch or change the cheek block but i cant find one with the same fixing hole pitch as this RWO and not sure if this area of the hull has backing plates under so the yard may have fitted with what they call "dental Glue".
Bayraider 20 mk2
Larger jib set on bowsprit with AeroLuff spar
USA rig
Carbon Fibre main boom with sail stack pack
Epropulsion Spirit Plus Outboard

Graham W

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Re: BR20 questions regarding versatility of gunter/gaff rig
« Reply #18 on: 09 May 2020, 10:59 »
Thanks Peter.  Having had a look again at the space between my oarlock base and the gunwales, it may be too narrow to fit a turning block.   I don't recognise your furler in the latest set of photos - what is it? 

Attached some photos of the front of my boat.  The aft attachment point of my bowsprit is a cruder version of yours and my bobstays are tensioned using strops.  I think that the self tacking jib boom makes the whole thing looks quite ugly.  I have a prettier conventional jib in the shed but practicalities outweigh aesthetics when trying to manage four sails single handed! As an alternative, I can also set a flying jib at the front instead of the code zero. The description of this exceptional BR20 versatility justifies my going off topic yet again.

The code zero furler is by French company Hookmatic, recommended by Guy Rossey.  It's small and neat and made of stainless.   The endless line for the Hookmatic gets in the way in the cockpit and I'm just going out to see whether a rope knife could improve the situation.
Graham
Gunter-rigged GRP BR20 #59 Turaco III

Peter Cockerton

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Re: BR20 questions regarding versatility of gunter/gaff rig
« Reply #19 on: 09 May 2020, 12:08 »
Graham

The code 0 was an excellent sail I thought on my last boat and many an outing was improved when light winds not strong enough to get her going, the continuous line came down to around the oarlock area  and I then had shock cord attached which I wrapped around the aft starboard cleat, this helped keep the line taught and out of the way.

The drum is a Barton 95 mm drum not sure of model as no markings, you can get to the single ball bearing race though if you have too for service but according to Barton it just needs flushing out with clean water occasionally.

A further note now I have studied your jib drum, if you take the drum apart by removing the two fixing bolts you can service the bearing and if required fit new balls. No seals at top of axle which is under the plate which you secure the luff wire too and just under their is the bearing.

I have just spotted your continious furler line arrangement, bring both lines down the starboard side and keep taught with shock cord, the lines don't come into the cockpit then. The shock cord has a block on the end which the line went through.
Bayraider 20 mk2
Larger jib set on bowsprit with AeroLuff spar
USA rig
Carbon Fibre main boom with sail stack pack
Epropulsion Spirit Plus Outboard

Graham W

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Re: BR20 questions regarding versatility of gunter/gaff rig
« Reply #20 on: 09 May 2020, 17:30 »
Thanks Peter, that’s very helpful.
Graham
Gunter-rigged GRP BR20 #59 Turaco III

Matthew P

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A few years ago it became necessary for me to replace Gladys's jib boom  - don't ask!. Swallow Yachts kindly supplied me a blank boom for me to transfer the existing hardware onto.  I replaced the furler drum U bolt with a stainless steel strap that wraps around the end of the boom and the ends coming together to form a tang that fits into the furler drum slot with a pin through to secure it.  This has the advantage of eliminating the floppy intermediate shackle that might come loose or wear, and bringing the jib closer to the boom, leaving more clearance between the top of the jib and the mast head.  I also fancy it is stronger than a U bolt fastened through 2 long holes in the jib boom. 

The photo the shows forestay slack, so the drum is canted back from its working horizontal position. 

Matthew
BR20 Gladys
"Hilda", CLC Northeast[er], home build, epoxy ply, balanced lug
Previously "Tarika", BR17, yard built, epoxy-ply, gunter rigged
and "Gladys" BR20, GRP, gunter

david

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Re: BR20 questions regarding versatility of gunter/gaff rig
« Reply #22 on: 10 May 2020, 00:21 »
Hi,

Question for you and I hope to not derail this topic.

I am not sure what to call it, so I called it a jib strop. My question is, when to replace this. As it is the attachment for the jib boom to the boat, a failure would not be good.
I still have my original and it is going on eight years. Hence my concern. The pictures I have attached are from Mathew's and Graham's boat, (I think).

Would the yard supply? Graham's looks home made - How do you do that?

Any help appreciated.
David

Ex - BR 20 - Nomad

Peter Cockerton

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Re: BR20 questions regarding versatility of gunter/gaff rig
« Reply #23 on: 10 May 2020, 08:27 »
David

The yard “when open” will make you a replacement for a few pounds, money well spent I think considering it’s strategic role, they normally just ask for required length of the soft shackle.

Peter C
Bayraider 20 mk2
Larger jib set on bowsprit with AeroLuff spar
USA rig
Carbon Fibre main boom with sail stack pack
Epropulsion Spirit Plus Outboard

Graham W

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Re: BR20 questions regarding versatility of gunter/gaff rig
« Reply #24 on: 10 May 2020, 09:05 »
David,

Mine is a long version of a Dyneema soft shackle, as described (together with lots of other versions) on this wonderful US site https://l-36.com/soft_shackle_9.php.  As a failsafe, I have a second shorter soft shackle a bit further back along the jib boom.  I probably have around 20 soft shackles and spliced low friction eyes doing important stuff about the boat, especially (to keep it on topic) on the gunter rig.

Jimmy Green Marine in the UK will also splice you a more traditional string endless loop, for a price, and they are open for business.

Frequency of replacement depends on how much wear and tear and UV the loop is subjected to, and even then it will probably last for years.  Eight years in sunny California might be pushing it if the boat is kept outdoors all the time.
Graham
Gunter-rigged GRP BR20 #59 Turaco III

david

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Re: BR20 questions regarding versatility of gunter/gaff rig
« Reply #25 on: 10 May 2020, 14:22 »
Thank you  Petter and Graham for your  insights .  Time to return  the thread back .
David

Ex - BR 20 - Nomad

Matthew P

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Re: BR20 questions regarding versatility of gunter/gaff rig
« Reply #26 on: 11 May 2020, 10:06 »
Gladys is Gunter rigged with a wooden mast and original Dolphin 10 year old sails. I confess at times to contemplating conversion to Bermudan.  I suspect I would keep the Gunter for cruising and the Bermudan for Raids. The following is not an attempt to define which is “better” because suitability depends upon intended use and personal objectives. 

 
Sailing Efficiency
 
In theory Bermudan should be able to point higher and sail faster.  In practice Gunter rigged Bayraiders have performed well against Bermudan BRs and BRes at SailCaledonia, Mylor and other races, although so many other factors come into play (crew, tactics, centre board efficiency etc) that success cannot be attributed to the rig. 

 
Reefing
 
Bermudan should be quicker and simpler because, unless heavily modified, the Gunter yard has to be lowered and the halyard position moved.  However Bermudan sails carry the risk of the luff sticking in the mast tracks which on a rising wind on open water could be a real problem.  Gunter rigged gear might fail but it’s less likely for gear failure to prevent the main being furled. Getting it back up might be another problem! 

 
If all goes well a reefed gunter sail is tidy without unnecessary mast and windage projecting above.  To my mind a reefed gunter rigged BR20 reef looks tidy and is satisfying to sail.

 
Rigging
 
Gunter masts can be raised and lowered with the mast foot remaining attached to the tabernacle.  I’m not sure which is quicker to rig, Gunter or Bermdan.  I think speed of both has more to do with how well organised the skipper is and how many extra bits of stick and string have been added to the standard rig - some of us have more than others!  I’ve found lazy jacks are great for smoothly guiding the yard down when reefing but incredibly inventive at getting in a tangle when raising a Gunter mast!

 
Trailing
 
Gunter spars don’t overhang the stern beyond the rudder, even with the mast foot left in the tabernacle.  If preferred, the mast can be detached, and all the spars fit into the cockpit.  Bermudans always seem to have the mast looming over the tow vehicle and be heavier to raise than Gunter mains but no doubt a Bermudan owner will correct me.

 
Cruising

One of the joys of the Gunter rig is lowering the yard to horizontal and securing the top to the mizzen to form a reassuring handrail at anchor or under motor.  It also makes a robust ridge pole for draping a tarp over to make a tent.

Mr Peers points out that air draft is lower for the gunter rig, making it easier to pass under bridges. If the mast has to be lowered it is arguably easier to lower the gunter version and there is no great overhang over the stern to contend with in locks.

Also the geometry of the gunter with its sprit boom dispenses with the need for a kicking strap and gives more headroom in the boat. In that vein has anyone considered the possibility of fitting a GNAV to a bermudan rig to avoid the kicking strap interfering with the spray hood while sailing and also to act as a support strut to the boom when the mainsail is down?

 
Aesthetics
 
All in the eye (and probably age) of the beholder.  I like the traditional look of a Gunter and it seems more in keeping with events such as Gulf du Morbihan, even if the reality is Gladys is a modern-ish GRP boat underneath.

 
What do Bermudan owners other Gunter people think? I expect Michael will add something about Junk rigs too...

 
Matthew
BR20 Gladys
"Hilda", CLC Northeast[er], home build, epoxy ply, balanced lug
Previously "Tarika", BR17, yard built, epoxy-ply, gunter rigged
and "Gladys" BR20, GRP, gunter

Graham W

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Re: BR20 questions regarding versatility of gunter/gaff rig
« Reply #27 on: 11 May 2020, 13:20 »
One more advantage of the gunter rig is that you can also fly a simple reduced mainsail which does away with the need for a gunter yard.  Very useful if going out to sea solo in difficult conditions and you're not in too much of a hurry.  See from this message onwards https://www.swallowyachtsassociation.org/smf/index.php/topic,763.msg5020.html#msg5020 and the photo below.
Graham
Gunter-rigged GRP BR20 #59 Turaco III

Graham W

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Re: BR20 questions regarding versatility of gunter/gaff rig
« Reply #28 on: 11 May 2020, 13:37 »
Sailing Efficiency
 
In theory Bermudan should be able to point higher and sail faster.  In practice Gunter rigged Bayraiders have performed well against Bermudan BRs and BRes at SailCaledonia, Mylor and other races, although so many other factors come into play (crew, tactics, centre board efficiency etc) that success cannot be attributed to the rig. 


+ rowing prowess!
Graham
Gunter-rigged GRP BR20 #59 Turaco III

globetrot

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Re: BR20 questions regarding versatility of gunter/gaff rig
« Reply #29 on: 11 May 2020, 20:54 »
All good info! Thank you.

I have been speaking with Swallow Boats and found out that the Gunter Rig is no longer considered the standard rigging package for the BR20. Now all boats come standard with a Bermudan rig. Additionally, for a little extra dough they will rig a cassette system to help ease the process if feeding the sail luff back into the mast track. Here is what they say:

We have developed a system for our larger boats that enable much easier feeding of sail slides. Its basically a cassette system that stores the lowered slides in a short length of track, that comes away with the boom when removing it. When replacing the boom, the whole lot fits against the mast and aligns the short length of track with the mast track, thus allowing the sliders to slide up the mast when raising the sail.
This feature, we call it a cassette gooseneck.
Hold Fast
Louis Volpe

S/V Vesper #110
BR20 - GRP

Carbon fiber mizzen and mast - Bermuda-rig
Large conventionally sheeted jib with Barton furler on a fixed bowsprit