Asymmetric Spinnaker Rigging on Bermudan Rigged BREs and BR20s

[garethrow]

With a degree of trepidation at opening a can of worms, I wonder if I could seek opinions on rigging and using an asymmetric spinnaker on a Bermudan rigged BRe or BR20. This ws the subject of some debate at the Ulswater rally and with light wind conditions it gave us a chance to use the spinny a bit more than usual  - with the conclusion that we must be doing something wrong!

When tacking or gybing we find it very hard to pull the sail through the narrow gap between the luff of the sail and the forestay and are worried about tearing the spinnaker. It has been suggested that we rig it so that the sheets pass around the front of the luff - hence avoiding the narrow gap, but I am pretty sure the sheets would get caught under the bowsprit if not the hull. Is this an issue that can be improved with better sheet management?

Our launch and retrieve process is from a stuff bag located under the mast / foredeck, but has to be over the starboard bow as the tack rope is rigged to starboard. This works OK when on the port tack and the sail goes up / comes down on the leeward side but we can't see how to do it easily on the starboard tack.

There must be a fair few BREs out there with the same rig and challenge  - how do you resolve these challenges? I think 1 or 2 may do without the forestay rigged - but I am not keen on that option.

Suggestions gratefully received.

Regards
Gareth Rowlands
BR20 Halen Y Mor

[Sea Simon]

You are not alone!

I am very certainly no expert on this! Perhaps one will be along in a mo?
Meanwhile...

Many think that gap between stay/jib is too small.

If you watch the various swallow promotional videos on utube, you may notice that the demo BRe boat has no forestay.
Apparently many do this? Not me, generally.
Uncomfortable with this, besides which i have a "best" jib, that is semi battened and far too good to roller furl. When in use, It must be lowered to use the assym. In which case no jib halyard to act as surrogate forestay.
That said, we've not really tried to fly this best jib and the spinni at the same time.

You may also note, that even with no forestay, video of full, successful gybes is rare ?.

I gave up the struggle on inside gybes long ago. I rig to gybe outside the jib/forestay.

I rig my spinni in a large garden trug/bucket thing clipped up in the companionway. Generally try to always launch/retrieve over the port side (stbd tack safety/advantage) especially when singlehanded.

With the addition of a "jib-dick", or more politely a "gybulator" to my asymm sail, (google them!) So as reduce chances of lazy sheet going into the water, or worse, under the boat.....
.... and a short carbon fibre extension (temporarily attached - in case of close quarters situations) to my bowsprit, as an emergency "catcher" for the sail, it's perfectly feasible to use the assym singlehandedly, at least when cruising.
Just take care to try to flag the sail round the bow, or put the other way, rotate the boat under the sail streaming out in front of the boat.
My issue then becomes sheet loads, even with ratchet blocks. Thicker sheets needed? I use gloves.

However, tbh, I'm not yet competent/confident to do all of the above, singlehandedly in the pressure/heat of a race.

Hope this helps?
Also hope someone more experienced than me can add to this!

[Graham W]

My boat isn’t Bermudan rigged so doesn’t have a separate forestay unless I’ve rigged one up on my (optional) plank bowsprit. I’ve managed to get my asymmetric up a few times over the years but it’s not easy when you’re solo and like the others, gybing has been problematic.  I even put it on a top-down continuous line furler, at great expense, which helped quite a lot with handling and gybing but I wasn’t convinced it was worth it and eventually sold it on.

As an alternative when solo in light downwind conditions, I’ve become very attached to my furling code zero, which I’ve copied almost exactly off Guy Rossey (his photos of his boat below).  It’s more fun and much less stressful!  It uses a much cheaper continuous line furler that doesn’t need to be top down, as the sail incorporates an anti-torsion line in the luff.  If I want to gybe, I furl it, change course and then unfurl.  I haven’t tried it yet but it might even work on a dead run if it’s poled out.  I had it up in ten knots of wind on the starboard quarter a few days ago and took off like a bat out of hell.  I also had trouble holding on to the sheets despite ratchet blocks and decided that I’d better wear gloves next time.  In heavier conditions I put up a flying jib on the same furling arrangement.  I even have it rigged in a way that allows me to change from one to the other from the front of the cockpit.

[johnguy]

I always unclip the forestay and clip it to a shroud while racing, unless heavy winds forecast. Ditto if I want to use asymmetric. It helps, but that sail is still a pain in the neck to rig and gybe. Just not a good arrangement. Practice does not make perfect. A good tip is to use small clips and elastics off the side of the shrouds to hold the lazy sheet up, stop it getting under the bowsprit or boat. I use a jib pole a lot downwind instead, it's a cheap clothesline prop from amazon.

[Wine Knot]

We are not long sailing our BRe as we only took delivery in May due to Covid and Brexit so still only getting to grips with all the ins and outs of the boat. Having sailed J80s, RS400s and Laser2000s in the past we nearly always fly a kite when we go sailing. We relocate the forestay as it does allow more space for the gybe but it also has a tendency to wrap itself in the jib while furling. We follow a sequence of kite launch and recovery which worked on a J80 which has a huge kite and can get damaged very easily

Here is our sequence

1. Helm bears away onto a broad reach  ( 2 reasons flat  boat and the kite when hoisted will want to fly out to the bow and blow back in on the shrouds

2 Helm will hoist as the crew encourages the kite up

3. Once the head hits the mast , the crew will pull the tack in fully as the helm takes the slack out of the working sheet

4. The crew takes the working sheet as the helm will bring the up to get pressure into the kite.  ( in windy conditions be careful not to come to high )


To gybe
we bear away to a broad reach ( with the boat flat again) and then the crew will ease the working sheet and keeps watching the clew as the boat enters the gybe. At a certain point the clew will want  to gybe as it flips over and at that point the crew needs to pull the guts out of the lazy sheet soon the become the working sheet. (thats assuming the sail doesnt snag on anything, crew needs to be watching as well as pulling)  There is a tendency to oversheet the new working sheet so ease it off as the boat comes out of the gybe. Particularly in heavy winds we keep the gybe to a small angle, we never go from reach to reach but rather reach to broad reach then gybe to broad reach and then harden up to reach.


The Drop
1. Helm will take the boat very broad again. Flat boat and less power in the kite
2. Crew will grab the working sheet close to the clew and pull the clew towards them.
3  Crew will release the tack line and gather in the foot of the kite.
4  Once the clew and tack are safely in the hands of the crew the helm will drop the kite in a control manner


We launch and recover the kite to the cuddy not from the bag as it is much easier.


Within a few weeks my wife, who is a novice to sailing has really got to grips with handling the kite as we always go through the same routine and only in conditions that builds confidence. I feel now she would be comfortable in most conditions given that the helm positions the boat correctly for launch and recovery.

I am quite surprised how well the kite works on the BRe and maybe I give it too much respite given it is small but I have seen too many kites damaged on bigger boats due to lack of routine


Sorry for the big ramble but I love chatting about kites!!!

Patrick

[R and J]

Hi Gareth,

It was good to meet you at the Ullswater meeting and I remember our conversation re sheeting the asymmetric. We are very new to Swallow with a BayRaider Expedition and are feeling our way. Contributions here will shorten our learning curve and manage our expectations.

I notice Peter Taylor’s photo posted on The Swallow Facebook page yesterday which clearly shows a furling mechanism. Jane(crew) likes the look of that. Thank you Graham for offering this suggestion. I also see you prefer a reaching sail which I suspect is better served by a furler than say a fuller gennaker capable of sailing deeper.

On other boats I have sailed, gybing by steering a curve adjusting the tack line and sheets to sail deeper as you bare away has facilitated easier transfer from one sheet to another using either inside or outside sheeting. A slacker tack line should help getting the sail downwind of the boat as described by Sea Simon as well as facilitating sailing deeper. I will give Sea Simons approach a go. I have not had chance to experiment yet as we have only sailed Sparkle on three separate occasions so far. Family duties with a new grandchild are slowing us down.

Gareth, does the launch bag have to be on the same side as the tack line?


Can I ask of those with experience of using an asymmetric on a BR20 or BRe20 if they have found success using the winch as a snubber on the sheet to help when the load is too hard to hold despite a ratchet block? Is the track of the sheet to the winch obstructed or the sheet too short?
This is something we have regularly done in the past on other boats whilst also using a ratchet block.

I noticed one BayRaider Expedition was using a tack block. We didn’t receive a block from the yard with the equipment so had thought the ring on the bowsprit without block was the intention. So tack block or ring only?

I look forward to further contributions here. It will help us find workable solutions. We hope to get to sail more very soon.

Rufus

BRe Sparkle

[garethrow]

Many thanks eveyone - I like the look of a gybulator - which I had never heard of before. Does anyone know where to get them and can they be retro fitted to the sail or do they have to be built in at the time of sail manufacture?

Rufus - with the BR20 the stuff bag is central under the mast - not an option with your BRe as this is your cabin entrance.

At the risk of sounding really stupid ( I am known for being a bear of very little brain) I am now trying to work out how to rig the sheets and tack so that the sail gybes around the outside rather than between luff and forestay. Trying to imagine this is giving me a headache! I think I need to be front of my boat to work it out.

I did ask Matt at the yard about removing the forestay - his response was that whilst this is individual choice he personally thinks it is a bad idea as if your jib furler snarls and you hit a blow - you can't drop the jib to reduce sail without the mast falling down.

Regards

Gareth Rowlands
BR20 Halen y Mor

[Sea Simon]

Gybulator. Looked at a lot of sites, and made mine from some sheet perspex, very carefully rounded off in all 3D/perspectives. The batten version looks too fierce to me? If I was to do it again, I'd make it even more "sticky-outy", but the roundedness is good - safe for sail.
This was then retrofitted, hand stitched to the sail tack. It's not under much load.

Trug "launcher", I ended up with this as a temporary measure, when sailmakers supplied a spinni bag way too big. I mean WAY too big! It went back. Trug bucket thing works well, imo. When clipped up, on elastics, It fills the companionway, secure, dry, not in the way. Launcher Bag cancelled.

Sheets, easy enough, trawl u tube etc. Nowadays, I tend to stream mine to the HD TV so as to see the details!
They need to be longer than standard "inside sheets", but try it with what you have - you might be lucky? Run them right around the outside of everything. Guess it may depend on how far aft your spinni sheet blocks are? Mine are at the bulwark/gunnel cut out, by rowlocks..ish.

Forestay. Good point from Matt re furling, hadn't thought of that one!
As an Engineer, the idea of only the furler holding up my mast does not appeal! I'm not convinced that Selden oem intended this (but stand to be corrected)? Also relies on the rope clutch on the jib halyard; similar technical issues, maybe? As well as being vulnerable to "finger trouble/operator error".
 Similar potential tech issueswith swages on jib luff etc?
Clearly it is actually possible, but personally I'd prefer to hedge my bets, if possible.

[garethrow]

Thank you Simon - very helpful and interesting. What are the approx dimensions of your gybulator? Thickness of perspex? Presumably you drill a lot of small holes in it to enable hand stitching.

Many years ago I used to sail a Scorpion and fixed a cemicircle of coat hanger wire off the bow foredeck to do the same job of catching spinnaker sheets, and had toyed with a similar arrangment on our BR20 - thinking two pieces of narrow guage tubing fixed either side of bowsprit into which one could slot a stainless wire sheet catcher. Needn't stick out to far - perhaps 6" or so.

Regards

Gareth Rowlands
BR20 Halen Y Mor

[Graham W]

Gulp!  Old style BR20’s with self-tacking jibs and no bowsprit rely solely on the jib halyard to hold the mast up.  So Matt’s comment about not removing the forestay in case of jammed furler misery is a reminder to keep said hardware in tip top condition.  The jamming seems to happen more often with Barton top swivels than with their bottom furler, although that happens too.  You usually get indications that the ball bearings are gradually failing, at which point it’s time to replace it with something altogether better.

[Sea Simon]

My sail is in the boat, no chance of access today.

No photos here but I recall protrusion is about 100mm? Base to suit tack sail patch webbings.
Holes drilled in perspex, and melted thru tack patch, to match, with hot wire. Hand stitched.
I think perspex is 5mm? It was a scrap.

My bowsprit extension/catcher extends about 400mm? Light section carbon tube, with "breakway" cab!e tie attachment to BS proper. Also has a tether/retainer cord, so as I can get it back if knocked off.
Some of my pals take the mick, as end result looks like I may have a "bow sprit envy" issue!
...i do now have a BRe 23?

GW - the Selden item looks better made (i think i had a Barton on my newish Lugger?) But to be fair, I'm not sure I'm comparing like for like, size wise?

[Graham W]

After several problems, I swapped my jib furler gear from Barton to Selden.  This also produced one or two issues, since solved https://www.swallowyachtsassociation.org/smf/index.php/topic,2001.0.html.

The continuous line furler on my code zero is by French brand Hookmatic.  Solid stainless steel but nice and compact and thoroughly recommended, although the price seems to have risen since I bought mine.