Junk Rig for Raiding, anyone?

[Julian Swindell]

How about...

Make the hull about 2m longer, with the extra length hinged, so when anchored, or in a pricey marina, the rear 2m is hinged forward over the top of the main hull to form a cozy roof to a temporary cabin? Rigging the mizzen and rudder might be a bit of a challenge, not to mention the outboard.

[Craic]

I had not been trying to be funny.

There are bathtubs available with a sealed door for floor level entry.

A removable hardtop roof could be upturned, and with a seal and a lid over the entrance opening would form an open hull that would float. If done well, this could be a basic rigid tender to row ashore if need be.

Transporting a tender with a small boat on the open sea and over large distances is always a problem. If you have an inflatable tender, you know that that is a pain on a small boat.

I remember a boatbuilder in France, Francois Lelievre, who had the idea to have a roof which if turned upside down would fit inside and become part of the open cockpit. On his Pirmin dinghy.

Think about it, it may sound ludicrous to you, but it is not.

[Julian Swindell]

Hi Claus,

I wasn't thinking it was funny, it is interesting. Phil Bolger designed a folding schooner, which folded in half for ease of transport. I think there could be potential to develop that idea as a way of shortening a boat for marinas and providing non-sailing accommodation. I think one of the usual problems is the increase in weight caused by the fastenings and waterproofing needed.

[Craic]

Hi Julian,
I found photos of the Pirmil 5.5, the boat with the removable cabin rooftop that can be turned around to disappear into the open cockpit at: http://www.nauticaltrek.com/voiliers/databoat/galerie_d_image.html?no_cache=1&rep=5511&from_pid=5511 .
So there.

If you look at that cabin rooftop, there is little fantasy required to realise that it could be fitted with a watertight sealed lid and be rowed ashore too.

I am thankful you have started a separate thread on rear cabins; I wish we could transfer the more recent contributions from here to there. I am sorry to have deviated this thread away from Junk sails, I was carried away by my own spontaneity.

[Julian Swindell]

The French do produce some extraordinary boats! I was looking at a 16ft epoxy ply little cruiser the other day, with perspex domes that you stick your head up into to survey the sea. Can't find the link at the moment.

I'll add some ideas to the rear cabin thread when I get time. I do quite fancy the idea of lounging on the poop deck, keeping an eye on the crew down in the cockpit below. I'm not sure how Matt would react if I asked him if he could just slide Daisy G's cabin a couple of meters backwards...

Now, a sliding cabin, there's a thought

PS Found the link to the curious French boat, well worth a look:
http://hensevalyd-english.jimdo.com/works-and-creations/souriceau-4-75m-micro-cruiser/

[Michael Rogers]

There seem to be two themes going on here, but as far as funny little bubbles to look out of and central steering positions, stern cabins etc are concerned, I refer folk again to Hasler and McCleod's 'Practical Junk Rig". It's all been done, to practical effect not just to be quirky, 20 - 30 years ago.

As promised (actually, as I promised myself), I'm not going to say any more about my own junk rig project (actions speak louder than words etc). Herewith some brief remarks about some of the comments made above.

Problems and Solutions. Claus is clearly very happy with, and defensive of, gunter ketch rig, and I would only be provocative if I suggested that there just might be a rig out there which is even handier and performs even better! I definitely have problems with the rig of my Storm Petrel (a lovely, fast, skittery and tender little thing), principally that reefing effectively means running for shore, which is inefficient, inconvenient, frustrating and potentially not even feasible. (I tried roller furling of the jib as first reef: for various reasons I was not happy with it.) That is MY major problem, which affects most of my sailing activities - I like to STAY OUT, even in a blow. I believe I have found an elegant, flexible and seamanlike solution.

All that string. A fair amount, and it needs setting up and tuning. However, this tweaking is 'permanent', and once done rigging the boat etc is an absolute doddle.

Stayed/unstayed masts. True junk rig, including its 'Western' development over the last 50 years, has an unstayed mast as basic. I am no engineer or whatever, but I understand it to be an established fact that the forces acting on the mast, and through the mast on the hull, are entirely different in the two instances, to an extent which can quite profoundly affect handling and sailing qualities.

Performance. In a recent issue of the Junk Rig Association Newsletter (actually a very elegant and beautifully illustrated little magazine) there is a picture of a yacht called Poppy, rigged with the latest kind of junk sail (sail panels between the battens individually cambered), absolutely storming through a big fleet of yachts, on the south (open) side of the Isle of Wight, in what looks like a force 5 - 6, during the 2008 Round the Island Race. She was apparently delayed off the start for non-sailing reasons, overtook the other boats by the score, and was one of the first round the Needles and into the Solent. Junk rig performance off the wind is recognised to be good (only bettered by boats with spinnakers). Poppy's upwind performance is reportedly startling.

Ease of handling. It may be because I am not managing to get any younger that the legendary ease of handling of junk rig is so attractive. Francis Chichester won the first solo transatlantic race, exhausting himself and losing lots of weight in the process. Blondie Hasler came second in junk-rigged Jester, having apparently spent much of the voyage cooking meals which resulted in him gaining weight, while the boat sailed herself. A junk rigged schooner called Galway Blazer took part in a Round Britain Race during which the weather was sometimes severe. It was remarked upon that, at the end of each leg, the only crew not utterly exhausted was that of (yes, you've guessed it) Galway Blazer (which has also circumnavigated, including Cape Horn). At the end of the 2008 Isle of Wight race mentioned above, the crew of Poppy was about the only one not on its collective beam ends with tiredness. Sailing, allegedly like Taxes (though that's a lie), doesn't have to be taxing to be enjoyable.

[Julian Swindell]

I do not know anything first hand about junk rig, but there is a well known Drascombe Scaffie which has been successfully converted to junk. This link is about what the owner did:
http://www.drascombe-association.org.uk/articles/junkrig.html

[Craic]

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[Michael Rogers]

Points all taken, Claus, in the friendliest of spirits. No, you weren't all negative at all, and aren't we having a stimulating discussion?!

Thanks for the fascinating link, Julian.

[Tony]

Seemed to remember a Junk rigged sampan in WaterCraft magazine some time ago. Had a ferret about and,sure enough..W15 May/June 1999, page 74.
(and, no, I don't have the full set lined up in Morocco leather binders!)
This actually shows a San Fransico Pelican 18 with a fully battened main - but the article mentions a junk rigged Yangtze 18 with a fore cabin and, wait for it, a Great Cabin aft! Neither the Pelican website nor the Wooden Boats forum have a picture of an existing boat but they do have this rather scary drawing.

http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=71730

See also the French site;

http://jonquedeplaisance.net/fr/plans.html

and also

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/metal-boat-building/junk-rig-sails-9490.html

[Rich Maynard]

Hi Claus,

Here is a (rather beautiful) day boat with a lid - not sure I'd call it a cabin, and it's not a production version either!

http://www.luckhardt.com/edboat4sale.html

I spent a while with bits of ply messing around to try and work out a cabin for my Drascombe Lugger but couldn't get it to work.

Rich M.

[Craic]

Hello Rich,
how are you? Happy New Year!

That is an interesting and certainly very pretty boat. It looks to me like that lid is -or has been designed to be- either removable or a pop-up. Which would be possible with that Cat rig mast standing so well forward that it does not interfere with the lid top. But it looks like very frugal space under that lid.

But no chance to do something similar with Luggers, the closed bow section is always in the way.
The BayRaider is actually quite good for overnighting with the sprayhood and an overall cover.
But alas, small boats and overnighting is probably an eternal conflict never to be happily resolved.
Will you come to the Solent Raid?
C.

[Rich Maynard]

Hey Claus,

The cat rig looks like a sensible rig for a small cabin boat, avoiding the need for a mast support post right in the middle of the accomodation, eh? But it has disadvantages, too.

I'm very very tempted by the Solent Raid. I was brought up down there and used to sail a very leaky National 12 from Keyhaven. My brother and I spent more time sanding and varnishing that boat than we ever did sailing it...

I have PMed you.