Bayraider Mainsail Handling

[Ron Dierolf]

I just took delivery of a Bayraider and sailed it for the first time yesterday.  I can't say enough about the boat!  I had some trouble rigging it as a number of spectators kept asking questions.  Where live (western Kentucky, USA) the Bayraider is a VERY unusual boat.  I have never seen a ketch rig where I sail and I've been on the water there for more than 30 years.  The first sail was in light winds but I was impressed with the handling and sailing ability. 

I have a lot to learn about the boat.  I have one question for owners of the Bayraider or any Swallow boat.  When sailing under jib and mizzen only how are people handling the main.  It's a big sail and with the boom and gaff there is a lot of volume to deal with.  Any advice?  Also, all of the boats I have sailed before have had topping lifts and/or lazy jacks which make handling the main fairly easy.  I am considering adding adjustable lazy jacks with the mast attachment points above the highest point of the gaff yoke.  The aft line could be used as a topping lift by  running it through a padeye attached to the boom and the center line left loose when the sail is unreefed and snugged up against the boom when the main is reefed or dropped.  The sail and the gaff could be dropped into the lazy jacks when dropping the main.

Has anyone tried anything similar?  Any ideas?

Ron

[Edwin Davies 2]

Congratulations on launching your BR Ron. Julian mentions lazyjacks in his posts on the Baycruiser, may be helpful. Also see his website.

The Drascombe Lugger forum also good for information on a similar rig.

You may have done this already, if so, sorry.

Edwin (deposit down on BayRaider 17) Susan 2

[Craic]

When sailing under jib and mizzen only how are people handling the main.

Congrats, Ron.
Fair winds always.

I lower the yard and tie it sideways to the mizzen mast, about horizontally over the cockpit. I then use sail ties to wrap in the loose sail and the boom and tie it all to the yard. You end up with a fairly neat lengthy package over your head. The cockpit is not cluttered then and the yard package also serves as a kind of central handrail for the crew in the severe weather you do this in.
Actually, I had a sailmaker punch me an eye into the mizzen sail which helps to tie the yard high enough with the mizzen sail set.

[Julian Swindell]

Congratulations Ron, you will love your boat.
I have been through all the ideas about dealing with the lowered sail. In the BayCruiser there is a fundamental difference. There is a cabin. with the BayRaider, if all else fails, you can dump the sail, yard and boom in the cockpit and sit on it. With the cabin in the way you can't do that, there just isn't room. I thought of stowing the yard as Claus describes, but again, with a cabin that would mean climbing onto the cabin roof in just the conditions where you would really not want to do that. So in the end we plumped for a solid, Bermudian mast (carbon fibre in two pieces for transport), with a roached mainsail for increased area. We also decided that the sprit boom, which I love, just wouldn't work either as it is so difficult to stow the sail on it. In the end we settled for a conventional boom at the bottom of the sail, which works fine, but you have the extra fiddle of the kicking strap, which the sprit doesn't need. I have rigged lazyjacks which catch the sail and hold the boom up. It means that when I stow the sail I go through the following:
-Loosen the main sheet (in truth I nearly always forget that)
-Loosen the kicking strap
-Tighten the lazy jacks (I can actually haul them right up so the boom is cocked up above standing head level, which is great for motoring)
-Drop the main sail, which comes down under its own weight if I am facing right into the wind, otherwise I may have to grab a bit and yank it down. It all settles on the boom between the lazy jacks.
-Tie on a couple of sail ties just to keep it neat.

Everything happens above head level and the cockpit is empty. I can sail quite happily like this with jib and mizzen.

[Julian Swindell]

I meant to attach a photo to the last, hopefully I have this time. This shot of Daisy Grace at anchor shows the main sail stowed and lazyjacked up high.

[Ron Dierolf]

I appreciate the help.  The sprit boom does complicate the setup of lazy jacks.  What I was thinking is an aft lazy jack that could be shackled to an eye on the rear of the boom.  This line could be kept snug and could act as a topping lift.  The center jack would be left loose until the main is dropped a bit when it could be snugged up.  The problem is that this involves two independent sets of lines, two cleats, etc.  The type of lines you put on the Baycruiser are ideal but won't work well with the sprit boom.  I suppose I could use that system and loosen them when tension on the mainsail leach pulls up the boom.

I hate to go making changes until I know exactly what I want.  If there are any other ideas out there I would be grateful.

[Jeff Curtis]

Hi Ron
I do like the sound of Clauses method and may try it on my boat. Meanwhile my way is effective but untidy. I drop the gaff yard and secure it vertically to the mast with a reefing line, disconnect the clew (QR shackle) from the sprit boom and stow the boom in the cockpit, disconnect the tack downhaul (snap hook), grab a handfull of the leech and roll it up tight into a sausage and lash this with the gaff yard to the mast. This leaves a bundle of unsecured sail which I stuff under the foredeck. If I need to raise the sprayhood this bundle has to be moved and secured to the foot of the mast. By the way, I have drilled a small hole in my sprit boom to take a pin to secure it to the gooseneck. This was after I poked my crew in the face with the boom end. I have also fitted a short track to the clew end of the boom which makes it much easier to release the outhaul and disconnect the clew.

Good luck and I hope you enjoy your new boat.

Jeff

[Julian Swindell]

One odd thought I have had re the sprit boom. Could you fit a Barton Boom Strut to it:
http://www.bartonmarine.com/html/boom_strut.htm
This would stay in place when you lower the sail as the tension in the foot of the sail would keep it there, so you wouldn't need a topping lift. You would need a goose neck that did not pull out...
The strut would press on one side of the sail on one tack, but the boom does that anyway. You could even fit lazy jacks on the non-boom side, going right under the foot of the sail and up to the boom. The upper part of the sail and the yard might fall into these if you guided them.

Just a thought.

[Ron Dierolf]

Thanks!!  The Barton Boom strut sounds intriguing.  They have a dinghy strut also.  I'm going to check those ideas out.  The dinghy strut apparently doesn't require any drilling - a big plus as far as I'm concerned.  It would not contain the sail as well as lazy jacks but it would be much less complicated and would keep the boom out of the cockpit.  A nice middle ground.

Thanks again for the idea.

Ron

[Craic]

Conventional boom, roached main, boom strut, lazyjacks - all incompatible with harbourfurling, the simplest, quickest and neatest way to tidy the mainsail from the cockpit.

[Julian Swindell]

I think Claus is right about the beauty of the simplicity of the Bayraider rig. It just wasn't possible to keep it so simple with a cabin in the way on the Cruiser. Mind you, I fancy the idea of a keel stepped, unstayed carbon mast on the cruiser. That would get rid of the shrouds at least, if you didn't mind the bigger compression post in the cabin...

[Terry Cross]

Claus,Ron,Julian,Edwin & Jeff
I was very interested in reading about the methods suggested in managing the main on the Bayraider and
Baycruiser. They are different boats and require different
solutions.
For the Bayraider I agree with Claus. harbour furling or the boom tied to the mizzen seem the best. As he implies lazy jacks, topping lifts etc. just add to the complications.
For the Baycruiser Julians lazy jacks appear to do the job,but what about a sailcover? A traditional sailcover could be fitted either with slots cut to accomadate the lazy jacks or the lazy jack slackend and "parked" close to the mast but this would require a topping lift.
 A stack/pack is another solution.

As well as "Iona" our Storm 15, we also have an Eagle 525 sailing cruiser which I sail mostly single handed. With advancing years I found it very difficult to drop and stow the heavy mainsail, which usually resulted in me detaching the boom and dropping the lot into the cabin to sort out later.
Years ago I swore that I would never use lazy jacks after seeing an experienced crew take over 20 mins. to hoist a fully battened main on a 50ft catamaran.
After many years of making stacking mainsail covers for all types of boats (most with positive feedback) I still remained sceptical.
However earlier ths year "I took the bull by the horns" and designed & fitted lazy jacks and a stack/pack to our Eagle 525. It works well in the drive but I have yet to try on the water.
I will keep you posted.
Terry Cross

[Julian Swindell]

Hi Terry
I am going to get a mainsail cover to match the spray hood. Didn't have it to start with partly for time reasons (I wanted to get on the water) but mainly because I wanted to figure out lazy jack positions etc. The lazy jacks are a bit unsightly but very thin. On the photo below you can just about see where one cuts into the sail where it is too tight, but otherwise they are invisible from any distance. They can catch the top batten on the way up, but it is easy to tug it round to the right side. The benefit of having the whole of the mainsail and boom held up out of the cockpit all of the time is worth it for me. The stack pack idea is neat when the sail is stowed, but I think it would look pretty clumsy when the sail is raised. I like to look up at the pulling sail and the pack on the boom would spoil the view! It would probably interfere with the reefing lines as well. The boom is quite small in section.

Does anyone have ideas for covering the stowed jib and mizzen? I have  a extra strip on the jib but I'm not sure if it acts as a sacrificial strip or not. On the mizzen I don't have anything at the moment.  I had thought of a couple of zip sided tubes of material which you pushed up the sail from the bottom with a jointed thin tent pole, but haven't got very far with that idea. Mind you, it would be nice to have the need for UV protection next year.

BTW It takes me no more than 30 seconds to raise the main and I can put in a full reef in under a minute, largely due to the lazy jacks holding everything in position whilst I do it. All of that single handed.

[Julian Swindell]

Hope photo attaches this time

[Terry Cross]

Julian
  I agree with you entirely. A stack/pack can look unsightly and interfere with the sail set especialy on a loose footed sail. The picture looks great.
Terry