Jib and Mizzen Heavy wind sailing poor drive

[Graham W]

Hyde mizzens are cut on the full side, which makes flattening them more difficult than with the old Dolphins, the original sailmaker when BR’s were first introduced.  I tried to source a mizzen with a flatter cut from Hyde but was rebuffed.  I expect an artisanal local sailmaker could probably sort something out.

I had an interesting conversation with a sailmaker this morning, when I dropped my sails off for some tlc.

I was complaining about my mizzen and how the current Hyde version wasn't cut nearly as flat as its predecessor, made by Dolphin Sails.  He said that Hyde were notorious for being unable to make flat sails, even for racing boats.  Boats with a relatively narrow beam should be able to point quite well but if the sails are too full, this detracts from their potential.  SeaRaider 'Craic' looks like it has Dolphins rather than Hydes, which must partly explain its extraordinary performance upwind.

I've asked my sailmaker the dreaded question of how long does he think my somewhat UV-bleached tan sails have left in them, which he'll report back on in a couple of months.  If I win the lottery, I may have to order a new set in due course and I was wondering whether there are viable alternatives to Hyde out there?  Their gunter-rigged sails are robust and have lasted quite well since about 2013.

[MarkF]

A very interesting comment about Hyde.  Our sails are by them and nicely made, but beating with the mizzen is the nautical equivalent of being followed around by an embarrassing relative; the jib and main set well whilst the mizzen just won't behave in public.   It luffs just a bit too early, all the time.  I had put it down to poor helmsmanship, but a fuller sail cut may well be contributing too.

Our outhaul is the original sort, with a rope passing through the boom.  Friction renders it non-functional, so I'll be following your guide to making a snotter in the hope that pushing the sail out another couple of centimetres might help. 

[Sea Simon]

Full Hyde sails.

 Comments above certainly tallies with my experiences.
 Difficult to reconcile with the title of the OP 

One of which was a one-design racing dinghy (I had 5 over the years all but one new), sails from boat builders only. Over those years Hyde cycled thru as the "selected suppliers". They didn't  last long before builder changed sailmakers again (citing "inconsistency", I seem to recall?). However, this limited number of well made, yet fuller cut Hyde sails are now sought after by some very capable helms for use in certain  conditions where it is clear they offer a significant  advantage (but are, of course, still class legal)...more power/drive.

Was not at all impressed with my BRe Hyde jib, almost new and barely used. Very full, impossible to flatten and just set badly.
I got a new semi-battened (non furling) race jib made by a local guy, who is now a sailmaker on the NZ Americas Cup team and so is currently unavailable.  Sorry GW! Once he gets back, I worry he'll  be unaffordable!
3 battens, full length at top. Leech n foot tension lines, dyneema luff rope (not wire) with downhauler/jib cunningham. About 15% larger than standard, to max fore triangle dimensions. It needed towable jib sheet cars really...but not too onerous to move cars on a BRe. Drill a few more pin stop positions too.
This sail transformed the boat upwind, but a bit of a pita to rig/remove. I generally  used to go alongside a pontoon to remove the Hyde and furler, then rig the race sail. This sail was sold with the boat.
Main was acceptable, but see below re crappy battens.
I'd planned to go for a similar new "race" BRe mizzen (as per Salcombe Yawl), but boat sold.

My original BC 26 Hyde furler  jib is surprisingly good. Just now needing repairs to UV strips.
 Main v much less so. Until I saw the 2013 sea trials pics, I thought it was probably just age/use/iffy storage at almost 10 yo. Battens APPALLING "contract" rubbish, same as those on BRe. Barely capable of supporting this larger sail section/cloth weight.
However, even from pics at build,  this main never looked good to me.
New main (sailmaker, see above) v v much better, also with tapered epoxy battens. Not cheap but money well spent, so I tell my wife...

I've been after the same sailmaker for an asymmetric (and ideally a code 0) as I can't find/afford similar product quality and top rate service from the alternatives hereabouts.
No chance!

[Sea Simon]

MarkF.
Have you rigged a cunningham  on your mizzen?
Really helped me, although I also used the boom sprit-style to try to give some cunningham effect.

[Ged]

I've just had a new jib made by Exe sails, it was cut flat so that it would furl nicely on an Aero luff spar. It has so significantly improved performance compared to it's very full cut Dolphin predecessor, that I am going to get new main and mizzen made this winter.

[Graham W]

A very interesting comment about Hyde.  Our sails are by them and nicely made, but beating with the mizzen is the nautical equivalent of being followed around by an embarrassing relative

Nicely put!

[Ape Ears]

The original Dolphin mizzen sail on ‘CraiC’ and Hyde mizzen sail on ‘Apus’ both utilise the downward angle of the mizzen boom to allow the lower triangle of sail to act as its own kicking strap to maintain leech tension.

In addition the single line downhaul and inhaul oppose the action of the outhaul to allow optimal control of sail shape. By inducing mizzen mast bend the mizzen sail may be flattened or allowed to relax to allow maximum curvature to suit the conditions or point of sailing.

Subtle differences in how the control lines are taut (sic taught) can improve the discipline of this poor relation. See photo and diagram attached.

[MarkF]

MarkF.
Have you rigged a cunningham  on your mizzen?
Really helped me, although I also used the boom sprit-style to try to give some cunningham effect.

Thank you for the suggestion. No, I haven't but will look into doing so. I wonder if I need to pay some attention to the lashing on the tack - it's perhaps not tight enough.

[MarkF]

In addition the single line downhaul and inhaul oppose the action of the outhaul to allow optimal control of sail shape. By inducing mizzen mast bend the mizzen sail may be flattened or allowed to relax to allow maximum curvature to suit the conditions or point of sailing.

Another really helpful suggestion.  Am I right in thinking you use a 'normal' outhaul (not a 'snotter')?  I wasn't sure how you get the pre-bend in the mast; is this just by sail tension?

As for the inboard end of the mizzen boom, it looks from your diagram as though the downhaul is the usual lashing to the eye and you take an inhaul around the mast and cleat it off.  Is that right?

I was wondering if a similar result could be achieved by tying off the inhaul and downhaul to keep the tack tightly in place and using a snooter push out the mizzen boom to shape the sail?  I suspect I'll need to just try it to find out, but lots of helpful ideas from everyone so there's hope for my untamed family yet!

[Graham W]

See also this https://www.swallowyachtsassociation.org/smf/index.php/topic,198.msg770.html#msg770 and this https://www.swallowyachtsassociation.org/smf/index.php/topic,198.msg775.html#msg775 from 2009!