Bayraider centreboard pivot pin

[Peter Cockerton]

Claus

Matt needs to comment on this as we can go no further, i have attached one of the pictures i took and sent to Matt, this shows black Silkaflex on the pin on the centreboard band and none on the outer bands. It also shows the wear into the hull from the dislodged pin.

[Craic]

Peter and all,
the above photo and description has solved the riddle how your pivot pin got dislodged and the gelcoat chipped:

The centreboard has lateral play, the pivoting pin has none. Through wrongly fastening the pivoting pin to the centreboard, the centreboard took the pin laterally out with it, until one side of the pin left its seat from under the keelband, and jammed there, while the other side of the pin cocked up and chipped the plastic.

So this was caused by that assembly error at the yard to let the pin rotate in the keel seat instead of in its centreboard seat.
Your proposal to secure the pin to the centreboard with a sunken hex would have done the exact same BTW.
C.

P.S.
And there is one other not-so-nice detail to be seen on your photo: They still first carve out a recessed seat area for an outside-hull flange selfbailer, and then mount an inside-hull flange bailer there instead. Silly.

[Matt Newland]

Thanks for all your feedback.
The pin on Peters boat has not been deliberately glued to the centreboard. The sikaflex is there as a result of over enthusiastic application when bedding the screws home on the board itself.
Claus is correct that the pin should be stationary in the boat, ie not rotating, and the board should swivel on this. Fitting a pair of M5 bolts each side of the keelband is a great idea and we will be sorting this out on all future boats, as well as recomending to owners.

Peter, you sound unhappy about the fix that I have sent you - I will email you today to discuss other possibilities for your particular boat.

On another note Claus, the recess for the bailers was originally in place to enable the moulders to see easily where the bailers have to fit. It was a difficult problem to eliminate, but we sorted it some time ago. All boats since have flush finishes for their bailers. Peters boat is a 2009 ex demo model.

[Peter Cockerton]

Through the knowledge of members and discussion on this very usefull forum as  Claus has stated the riddle has now unfolded. When i originally discussed this matter with Matt he asked if i could see the black Silkaflex under the band and i replied yes. My assumption was the pin was fixed to the centreboard and the centreboard strip and it was supposed to swivel under the keelband strips. I have checked this morning and the pins will quite freely move in and out of the keelband strips within the constraints of the slot width of the centreboard. When i knocked the pin back into position i did need to tap quite hard so the centreboard friction on the pin must be considerable as no friction is being applied from the keelband strips so is unlikely to swivel there if i fix the pins under the keelband strips without investigation. So if the centreboard pin is not Silkafexed to the centreboard strip and centreboard the friction must be coming from band against pin against centreboard.

Matt has written to me and has taken full ownership of the problem and between us we will i'm sure correct this one way or another. The good news is this is unlikely to be a wider issue for other boats so no immediate concerns and that a small engineering change by way of the bolt fixing against screws on the 4 keelband positions will futher guard against pin lateral movement.

To summarise, yes i had a problem, Swallow Boats listened and promised to help, due to practical distance problems the boat was not taken to the yard for inspection so relied on discussion and pictures to identify the issue, my assumption on the mechanics was incorrect and the forum discussion brought this to the surface. Additional thought to the pin fixing has resulted in an improved arrangement to be incorporated in new boats.

Thanks to Swallow Boats and forum members for all your help.

[Craic]

Heard there is another GRP BR20 with centreboard pivot pin trouble, not connected with too much Sikaflex in the wrong place, but with the keelbands not holding the pin fast enough.

[Graham W]

Heard there is another GRP BR20 with centreboard pivot pin trouble, not connected with too much Sikaflex in the wrong place, but with the keelbands not holding the pin fast enough.

My boat had a problem, quickly rectified under guarantee, with the centreboard seizing on the retaining bracket, due to insufficient depth of the hollow in the centreboard where the pin nestles and rotates. This meant that the pin was shifting from side to side through the keelbands.  In addition to increasing the size of the hollow, Matt provided some retaining brackets to stop the ends of the pins from protruding into the GRP on either side.

[Peter Cockerton]

Quick note to say the centreboard pin on Joybells has no known problems at present. The mahogany end stops which were glued to the hull to act as swivel pin buffers have been replaced with neat stainless L shaped tabs which are now bolted through the hull. I guess Matt should be contacted to report any further occurences of this issue and no doubt similar remedial solutions will be implemented. Just to summarise "my understanding" of this lengthy posting the centreboard pin is bonded to the stainless keelbands, the keelbands are bonded and screwed to the hull, the centreboard is free to swivel on the pin. The hull has moulded tabs at both ends of the centrebaord pin area to prevent lateral movement of the pin. A modification has been suggested and as far as i know accepted to change the keelband screws either side of the centreboard pin area with through hull nuts,bolts and washers. This should prevent the loss of the clamping effect of the keelband against the pin and put less reliance on the bonding material to stop pin movement. The GRP tabs should also be not stressed by lateral movement of the pin and as such keep the pin located.

Good news on the improved forum platform and the excellent transfer of existing postings to retain this extremely usefull repository of information.

The above posting is an excellent example of the importance of retaining the existing forum contents and the contributions made over the years by all. Hopefully now the way forward is becoming clearer for the forum and association such that members objections and concerns can be addressed rationally.

I think it may be usefull to appoint a single point of contact representative to liase between Swallow Boat Owners Association Members and Swallow Boats for design, modification, etc, someone with an interest in our boats and not adverse in putting pen to paper as to speak.

PS

Are "Olives ready to eat this time of year"

Peter

[Anthony Huggett]

Somehow loosing the centreboard function during a sail in a GRP BR would have very severe consequences as the boat -though it would not capsize- would immediately loose all windward capability and would have to go to lee whatever there lies.
Even emergency motoring in that situation (without centreboard) may not help prevent leeshore trouble. Anybody here tried to motor a BR into a headwind without any centreboard help? -The only way possible is to go stern-first with the engine in reverse, while the waves pound the transom savagely. That's no picnic, and the outcome is open.

Reading this thread again, I recall that in the days of my youth I bought a Cadet 10 for £45, patched it up, and got halfway across Langstone Harbour before I snapped the daggerboard. On that occasion we got the boat to a downwind beach to assess the damage, and found the bottom of the blade was hanging by threads of wood. We were then able to sail upwind, albeit with a reduced daggerboard. I guess if I were in the same situation in a CB-less BR-into-headwind scenario I might have a go at unshipping the rudder blade, shoving it down the CB slot with a pin in the top to stop it going all the way through, and try steering upwind with an oar through the transom cutout, the engine cutout, or lashed to the foot of the mizzen. If you have a motor you could try turning it to steer, vectoring the thrust. None of this would be pretty, and I don't fancy hanging out of the back trying to get the rudder blade out in a choppy sea!

[Colin Morley]

After your posts I squeezed under my boat to find my centreboard pin had moved. See photo. I then hammered it back in place. It needed quite heavy blows so was not loose. It had not completely come out of one side. The next picture shows it back in place but also shows an area where the gelcoat and fibreglass have been worn.
I have told Matt about this and wait his advice. It seems to me that the pin just needs to be held in place with a screw each side through the steel band.

[Graham W]

Colin,

My pin was on the way to doing something similar.  Stainless clamps at each pin end should keep the pin in place but it is also worth checking why it moved outwards in the first place.  Does the pin rotate freely through the centre part of the bracket to which the centreboard is attached (it should)?  And does the centreboard knock and flex the centreboard case when you are not sailing to windward? 

It is also worth checking the upper part of the centre bracket for uneven wear at the point where the pin rotates against it. I unscrewed mine and found that it was worn on one side, which also stopped the pin from rotating freely.  I have photos if you are interested.

[Colin Morley]

Thanks Graham,

Why use clamps at each end? Why not just put a screw through it to make sure it does not move. Photos and details of what you have done would be good.

I wondered about checking the movement of the pin in the centreboard but It all seemed a bit difficult. With the boat on the trailer I cant move the centreboard.  Getting the pin out from underneath the boat, without the centre board falling out and checking how it rotates in the centre board seems very difficult. Then I am afraid that I might not be able to get it back in.

I am very reluctant to take the screws out that hold the steel strips because they may not go back in as firmly.

So i decided that if the centre board goes up and down I was not going to worry about it wobbling a little as long as I can be confident about the pin.

[Graham W]

Colin,

My photos are all of before rather than after.  Where exactly would you propose to place the retaining screws to prevent further movement? My pivot pin is flush with the edge of the keelbands on both sides, which is why Matt's clamps screwed to the outside of the pin were needed to stop further movement.

Removing the centreboard was relatively easy - unscrew six large screws from the underneath and it is free of the pivot pin and the centre bracket.  Reinstallation is the opposite, with the addition of some white Sikkaflex.

[Matt Newland]

Colin,
I have sent you an email on this subject. I will be sending you the clamps we have been fitting to new boats. These are very straightforward to fit. I will also be contacting all owners of GRP BR20s, and providing them with a set of these clamps for them to fit to ensure the pin can never move again.
Best wishes,
Matt

[Graham W]

From what I remember (which is not much these days), you get the best access to the relevant part of the undersides while on the trailer by shifting the bow a foot or so back from the winch.  Elf n safety oblige me to say that if you are doing this, those parts of the boat that might shift and develop a crush on you need to be chocked and secured.  Bits of fire log (and locking the winch itself) usually suffice.