Author Topic: Raising and lowering the main  (Read 21490 times)

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Tony

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Re: Raising and lowering the main
« Reply #15 on: 13 Jul 2011, 01:38 »
Thanks Andrew, That's the one....does she sail as well as she looks?

For other pictures of sails and Swallow Boats mentioned in this thread visit:-

 http://compare-a-sail.blogspot.com/


Its not part of this site so post here if you expect a reply!

Cheers!

Tony

Andrew Denman

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Re: Raising and lowering the main
« Reply #16 on: 13 Jul 2011, 01:42 »
Hi Tony,

That was one of the nicest lug rigs I have used - really simple and beautiful sail shape. The boat really flies with the high power to weight ratio and was quite close winded.

I'll have a look at the other site.

regards,

Andrew

Michael Rogers

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Re: Raising and lowering the main
« Reply #17 on: 13 Jul 2011, 09:18 »
Tony

Thanks for the prompt to report on my historical research.

The situation was not as straightforward as you might think. Sino-Tykeese relations were mostly cordial, and our Yorkshire forbears (I think Sir G Boycott makes some claims here) were interested in junk rig for cobles. However they could not find a locally grown substitute for bamboo to make the battens, and Emperor Ying Tong, of the Ping dynasty, slapped a large export tax on bamboo, and was not interested in payment in fish. (He was actually an environmentally savvy despot, and was concerned about long term food supplies for the Imperial Pandas.) The whole thing therefore fell through. For want of a pickled herring....

I am currently looking into a suggestion (by me) that some of the Norse longships involved in the sacking of Lindisfarne were junk rigged, using battens made of scarfed whale-bone.

Watch this space. However, couldn't/shouldn't we have a dedicated "Historical Research" section of this forum?

(SP Cadenza + T12 [coming along nicely] in build)

Tony

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Re: Raising and lowering the main
« Reply #18 on: 14 Jul 2011, 18:39 »
Michael Rogers:   For your eyes only.

Any other Swallow Boaters reading this do so at their own risk.  (Personally, I wouldn't bother...but it's been a slow day..)

On the subject of Junk rig in Yorkshire

Im sorry to contradict an eminent authority on the topic but the true facts (as is so often the case) are quite the reverse of your previously stated position.  It’s true that a fleet of ships commanded by Ying Tong visited the Yorkshire coast at that time but he was not Emperor, merely a noble of the court given the unpleasant job of monitoring the worlds fisheries after being caught embezzling Imperial funds or “fishing in MY pond” as the real emperor, I-Po, termed it. This was, in effect, a life-time of banishment carried out at Ying Tong’s own expense. Being a pointless task (stocks were thought inexhaustible at the time) it was considered a very shaming occupation for a member of the nobility used to high office, particularly as it concerned fish.  (Fish, it will be remembered, are considered Yang or “cold” in Confucian systems and so not fit food for a vigorous warrior knight.)  Such was the cruel subtlety of I-Po’s punishment.  Ying, in consequence, was of an irascible temperament and when asked what he thought of the pride of Yorkshires fishing fleet, drawn up on the shingle south of Filey Brig for his inspection is reported to have replied “Pah! Road of owd Cobbers! Which way to Rundon?”  Yorkshire beach boats have been referred to as “Cobles” ever since.
There are two other lasting legacies from this visit. 
When members of Ying’s retinue were asked by puzzled Yorkshiremen why such a high caste noble was counting fishing boats, the reply of “Ying Tong, diddle I-Po!” oft repeated with irreverent relish by laughing Chinese seamen was misunderstood and assumed to be a taunt of some kind. Strangers have been treated with suspicion in these parts ever since.
Lastly the vexed question of the origins of Junk rig. It has been suggested by those ignorant of the true facts that the lugsail was a simplification, adopted from the fully battened sails seen on Ying Tong’s ships. In fact, all the references from this period, including some beautifully illustrated scrolls, point to Chinese ocean going ships being rigged with large Lateen sails, identical to the Arab Dhows which undoubtedly traded with the Chinese empire at this period. Ying Tong may have been forced to use shorter spars when repairing damage caused in a gale when many of his ships grounded at Wainfleet. The Chinese were apparently very impressed by the weatherliness of a local fishing craft that clawed its way off the lee shore that was their undoing, and by the seamanship of the skipper in using his wife’s pink corsets as an extra mizzen tops’l  which made all the difference. (This also may account for the rumours of men from the North using whale bone battens in their sails.)
All the above I have on the very greatest authority. From the very lips of the man in the raincoat and cloth cap who sits in the corner of the public bar of the Crown and Anchor at Staithes.  Cant say fairer than that, Eh?

(“I told you I was ill!” Spike Milligan’s epitaph. )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CR1k2oGm7yw

Michael Rogers

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Re: Raising and lowering the main
« Reply #19 on: 14 Jul 2011, 21:21 »
Everyone will be pleased to hear that I have been rendered speechless and written-wordless by this outpouring of erudition. (How long did it take you to dream up that load of ************,  Tony?) Perhaps we should shelve the plans for that "Maritime History' section of the forum after all.

I'm off, to drink the bilge water of 'might-have-been'. The sooner you and i have that pint or two, Tony, the better. We seem, incidentally, to have similar tastes in beer, which is a good start.

steve jones

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reefing BR17'
« Reply #20 on: 16 Jul 2011, 16:10 »
Thought for the day:
If you give a hundred monkeys a hundred lazyjack systems for a hundred  years ...would you get a macramé jump suit?
Quote


My suggestions for reefing might though!

I'm at the stage in the BR17 build when I have to consider building the mast and I need to make provision for reefing.
A couple of proposals are enclosed.

Any other Ideas ?

I don't care about added weight, I gave up racing a long time ago.

Steve

Terry Cross

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Re: Raising and lowering the main
« Reply #21 on: 18 Jul 2011, 06:22 »
Steve
My mottos are K I S  (Keep it Simple) and B T B (Back to Basics)
How about putting a luff groove in (or on) the yard and using an extra halyard through a block the top.
Imagine the top part of a Bermudan dinghy mast being cut off and used as a yard.
This, of course,all depends on the sail having a bolt rope.

Terry Cross  “IONA”

Tony

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Re: Raising and lowering the main
« Reply #22 on: 22 Jul 2011, 10:17 »
Hi, Folks.
The minute someone mentions luff grooves, mast tracks, sliders etc I just think of JAMMED luff grooves, sliders, etc. Anything that has a machined fit can  be rendered inoperable by a grain of sand - or by a ham-fisted, wind-rode sailor in a panic. (That will be me, then.) If you REALLY want to keep it simple, use a lug sail!
OK, ok.I am not suggesting we all go back to dugout canoes - or macramé jump suits - but is a load of expensive hardware worth the extra half a knot?
Anyroad..low tech methods using high performance materials works for many applications. E.g. Dyneema shackles,(anyone who has been whacked around the head by a clew shackle will appreciate those) carbon fibre spars,(less mass = stiffer boat) I could go on....

Andy Dingle

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Re: Raising and lowering the main
« Reply #23 on: 22 Jul 2011, 23:44 »
Been reading these posts with some interest, I too have had similar problems with the mess of mainsail, gaff spar and boom laying around in the boat, getting in the way and being trodden on etc. It looks very un seaman like and I think spoils the looks of our Bayraiders.
Tony mentions his dislike of mainsail tracks and slides etc. So was prompted to reply.
As I understand it, all the original Bayraiders had Barton mainsail tracks and the sails fitted with slides.
I have the original Barton mainsail track and slides that Matt used on the early Bayraiders (mine is number 12), the gaff spar also slides up on this. So I got around the problem by using a topping lift, mounting the boom into the gooseneck on the mast, mounting the gaff spar into the track and laying it horizontally along the boom, sliding the sail slides into the track and locking off the track with an additional Barton plunge stop, then bundling the lot along the boom and gaff and securing it all together with sail ties. The main outhaul and mainsheet are also pre fitted.
So far I have found that all this can be done on the trailer without too much hassle. To hoist the main when required just head into the wind, undo the sail ties and haul up the gaff spar, adjust the outhaul etc as normal and your off sailing. Lowering is just as easy, just lower the gaff spar and sail to the plunge stop and bundle up the sail with the sail ties around the boom and gaff and that's it.  Keeps everything out of the way of the crew in the boat and doesn’t look too untidy.
Back on the trailer prior to lowering the mast I just take off the plunge stop and let everything slide out the bottom of the track, pull out the boom and drop the lot into the bottom of the boat, placing the mizzen on top.
Works for me.

Andy -  BR12 Psalter

Tony

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Re: Raising and lowering the main
« Reply #24 on: 25 Jul 2011, 00:46 »

Tony mentions his dislike of mainsail tracks and slides etc. So was prompted to reply.

Andy -  BR12 Psalter

Hi, Andy.
Us Nottingham Luddites have always been misunderstood. (Maybe we shouldn’t have shot that mill owner in 1812.)  Its the inappropriate use of technology we object to, not technology itself. Use it when you need it and not just because its there.
Your mast track, for example, sounds as if it does what you need in a straightforward way so – you will, no doubt, breathe a sigh of relief at this point – I don’t have a problem with it.     
Question is, will YOU have a problem with it in the future. Lets hope it continues to work for you.

Simon Knight

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Re: Raising and lowering the main
« Reply #25 on: 25 Jul 2011, 15:48 »
Hi all,  great thread and having just returned from the English Raid I'll add my ten pence worth. 

I have a BR with a carbon mast and a wooden boom. I have been storing the sail using the drop and lash the gaff horizontal to the mizen mast.  This works but means that the mizen has to be stowed as it fouls the end of the gaff and as mine is windsurfer pocket style its the only way to get a rope around the m.mast.  I have been camping under a tent supported by the gaff and found that it was easier to remove the boom and put it on the floor as it is so heavy (I shall be looking for Claus's notes on using a plastic boom).  I usually moved the main halyard to the aft/top position on the gaff to add extra support as crews from rafted boats crossing over mine using the gaff as a hand hold.

I find hoisting a problem and am now going to use an f word.  FRICTION!  My main halyard has no sheave and where it emerges from the mast it fouls on the double sheave block used for the jib forestay.  This block routes the jib and spinnaker halyards but the force exerted by the jib halyard bears on the spinnaker halyard causing it to jam.  I am looking at ways of improving my boats mast head and will report back if I stumble on a useful configuration.

I also think that there must be a better way of reefing the main as I did/do not fancy dropping everything into the boat to reduce sail area while bouncing about in a force five wind against tide.  Again its the heavy boom which causes me most concern as it will drop when the halyard is lowered and possibly brain the person on the helm.  A topping lift plus a light weight boom will help here - I hope!

Fortunately my mast does not have a track and slides but I did see the crew of Mini-the-Moocher using an oar to get the gaff all the way up so I tend to go along with the "all it takes is a grain of sand..." theory.

best wishes

Simon
Simon Knight
BayRaider 20 No.27 - Carpe Diem
Shearwater Sailing Canoe - Eureka

Simon Knight

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Re: Raising and lowering the main
« Reply #26 on: 25 Jul 2011, 18:58 »
I've solved the friction problem with a little metal bending and an extension :-)
Simon Knight
BayRaider 20 No.27 - Carpe Diem
Shearwater Sailing Canoe - Eureka