Question for Swallow Boat Owners

[wfcjr]

My wife is taking sailing lessons, and I see a boat purchase in our future.  Will likely be a trailerable
sail boat.  We are considering a few different manufacturers, Swallow amongst them.

My question is aimed at those who own or have sailed Swallow boats.  We are considering amongst
BayRaider 20, BayCruiser 20 or BayRaider Expedition.  From photos & video on the internet, the lines of hte BayRaider are quite nice.   However, we are thinking that some covered area like those offered on the BayCruiser or the BayRaider Expedition would be helpful to keep gear and/or people dry in the event of foul weather. 

Primary use will be day sailing, although we would not rule out the possibility for an over nighter.

Any perspectives on the differences in handling, speed, trailerability and room would be appreciated

[Graham W]

Have a look at this http://www.swallowyachtsassociation.org/smf/index.php/topic,573.0.html

[wfcjr]

Thanks for the link.

To date, I have consumed about all that I can find in print & electrons about the boats.
Have seen the very favorable print & video reviews on the BR20.

One of my questions are the differences between the BR20 & the BayCruiser.  How much differently do they behave given the differences in hull shape, weight etc.  Trying to sort out the cost/benefit of either the cuddy on the BR Expedition, the cabin on the BayCruiser 20, or just going with the open cockpit of the BR.

Thanks again for the response & the link.

[Graham W]

I prefer the canvas sprayhood on my BR20 because it is unobtrusive (and demountable) and I rarely use it but it is handy when I do.  For me, a permanent cuddy would just get in the way - but each to his own.

[Colin Morley]

Firstly the BayRaider 20 is a fantastic boat. It trails easily, it sails beautifully. The water ballast improves the stability with little effect on performance. It is fun to sail but is so stable it does not frighten the wife or grandchildren. We love the large cockpit. It takes four adults and three children with room to spare. There is lots of room under the foredeck and in the lockers to store plenty of equipment. The sprayhood is very large and certainly protects the crew from the elements. when moored the children use it as a den. I like the look of the Expedition with the battened mail and small cabin. However, I find that sailing my BR20 in confined waters, with the sprayhood up a bit tricky because it obstructs the view a bit and I have to stand up. On the Expedition the cockpit looks the same height and may just obstruct a clear view. Also the cockpit is a bit smaller. People could hide in the cockpit when sailing but would not be part of the active crew. As for sleeping overnight that night be fun on a nice warm night. It can be done on the BR20 with a cockpit tent. But in reality how many times are you going to do it, once a year?

What ever you get you will enjoy it.

[Julian Swindell]

The big difference between the Baycruiser 20, such as mine, and the Bayraider expedition, is that the former has a large cabin and small cockpit and the latter a large cockpit and small cabin. It is a question of your priorities. The Baycruiser can take four in the cockpit, I have done it many times, but no one can move. Tacking is generally a question of handing the tiller across, which is quite sociable. I think the BayRaider Expedition could take 6 easily, but the cabin is just a large cuddy. I like to play house on my boat, and I usually sail solo, or with just one crew, so the cockpit is fine for me. I also like to spend a good many nights on board. This year has been a bit of an anomoly, but usually I spend 20 nights or more on board each summer, usually anchored in some remote corner of Poole Harbour. It is magical (I was on board on Monday night, between the two best days of the year so far.) Performance wise I don't know. I suspect the Bayraider expeditionshoull have the edge as it is lighter (I think) but the Baycruiser is no slouch. The open Bayraider should be the fastest, but I did pity those at last year's English Raid, as they settled down under their cockpit tents on inflatable matteresses, whilst I reclined on one of my bunks, with books, food, several paintings and a radio to keep me entertained. As I said, I like to play house...

[Jonathan Stuart]

I had to make this decision last year and I sympathise because it can be surprisingly difficult. I don't think you will find such differences in "handling, speed, trailerability and room" that you can decide on those factors alone. Similarly, rig time is probably not a differentiator either - from what Matt told me last year a BC will take longer to rig than a BR but if a BC is the right boat for you then I wouldn't choose a BR just for a saving of, say, 15 mins in rig time.

The key differences are the ratio of cockpit to cabin space and that the BC is a cruiser, and therefore has higher freeboard but can't be rowed. I started my journey thinking we wanted a cruiser but had a long hard think about how we would realistically use the boat and decided that unlike Julian we would sleep in the cabin once in a blue moon. Therefore I would rather have more cockpit space.

In the end I decided on a BRe because it is a compromise that gives us small cabin while keeping a large cockpit. I would probably be happy with a BR or BRe because the sprayhood on the BR is so large and effective.

I recommend you decide whether you want a cruiser or day boat based on how you will use the boat. Also, nothing beats actually seeing and sailing boats when making this decision, especially once you have consumed and analysed every last morsel of information on the internet! These boats can be found all over the country so it you can post where you are then you might find someone nearby prepared to show you their boat.

[wfcjr]

Thanks to all for the responses  ... very helpful.

Primary use will be day sailer versus cruiser.

So we probably have it narrowed down to either BayRaider or BayRaider Expedition if
we end up going with a Swallow Boat.  Trying to decide whether the reduced visibility
and smaller cockpit are worth having at least some small dry space on the BRE.

With regard to going to see the boats in question, I am in violent agreement.
I really would like to be able to see in person and compare not only one vs the other, but also
vs other options we are considering.  Only problem is that I am in the US where there are not a great number of these boats.

[Rob Waller]

I'm a new owner of a BRe, although with the atrocious weather haven't been out as much as I'd like. An observation on visibility: the high boom means sideways visibility is excellent, but the forward view is somewhat blocked by the cabin... Or at least the sprayhood - on my test sail in a boat without a sprayhood I didn't notice this as an issue. Of course the jib blocks your view on any boat.

The BRe is highly practical. Loads of room in the cockpit, dry stuff, and privacy if someone needs to use the bucket on a longer trip, although some contortion required in the small space. I'm really enjoying it.

[Simon Knight]

Hi - my 2 cents....

I went from a Drascombe Coaster to a Bay Raider and I don't really miss the cabin (if thats what it was).   Jullian writes above  "The open Bayraider should be the fastest, but I did pity those at last year's English Raid, as they settled down under their cockpit tents on inflatable matteresses, whilst I reclined on one of my bunks, with books, food, several paintings and a radio to keep me entertained. As I said, I like to play house..." 
Well, I was very happy sleeping on my "self" inflating air bed listening to my  iPod and reading my collection of charts.  However, I don't recollect having any paintings to look at though!

Being slightly more serious I don't spend as many nights aboard as Jullian so using a tent makes sense for me.  It does mean a little more planning as all my camping gear has to go somewhere (chuck it all in the locker!) .  I found that a simple ridge tent is quick to deploy and strike and was  waterproof and comfortable.  I am planning my mk 2 tent with vertical sides for more room, plus some cockpit cushions.

As for speed I think the BR and BC are pretty well matched and I would not let speed to be a deciding factor.  If you want speed then follow this link http://www.wolstenholmedesign.com/kite.htm for Andrew Wolstenholme's Kite, she uses both wind and witchcraft to sail past all before her.

happy hunting

Simon

[Julian Swindell]

Hi Simon
That tent looks a big improvement on the tarpualin you unfolded at the first English Raid! I think quite a few people have experimented with semi-circular tent supports, held in simple fairleads at the gunwhales. It helps things hugely to have more upright sides. You also don't need to use the boom for support, which might make the interior a bit drier. I have tried it myself to complete a cockpit tent on my BayCruiser.
Are you coing to the Third English Raid netx week in Suffolk? I shall be launching there on Wednesday, inshallah.

[Simon Knight]

Hi Julian,

Unfortunately I am unable to attend this year as I have to "work" - shock horror.  Its a pity as I have never sailed the East Coast.  I hope that you have a great time and please send my best wishes to everyone there.

The tent was a great success and I shall be making the Mk II this coming winter.  It will be something along the lines of Douglas Hopwood's mighty Drascombe Coaster Tent (pic attached I hope). 

Getting back to the original question I would like to propose a test to be conducted while under the shelter of choice (tent of roof) its called the "Trouser Donning Test" or TDT for short.  I devised the test while attempting to get dressed inside the cabin of my 6m Peterboat while it was all cats and dogs outside.  After much gymnastics I was dressed but I swore that I would never buy another boat without conducting the test.  Naturally I forgot all about it, but one London boat show there I was in the cabin of some small cruiser with my wife and the eager salesman when she turns to him and says " you don't mind if my husband takes his trousers off - do you ?"   our faces ......  

Given that the olympics are on we probably need a scoring system, how about scores out of ten for technical merit and artistic endeavour? 

best wishes
Simon

[Peteri]

I owned a BR20 and have changed it for a BRe.  It is very useful having a cabin, particularly if you sail with mixed crew. Haven't yet used the toilet but it will be a little cramped
 There is no loss of vision with the cabin and not really much loss of useful cockpit space.  There is sufficient space for 2 to sleep but this will be rare.  Its a great place to store all the gear that might be useful.  .
The BR had a gaff rig which meant that it was a doodle getting the mast up then a heave for the gaff to be hoisted.  The BRe has a one piece mast which is a heave to get up then a doddle to raise the sail.
Sailing characteristics are identical.
On balance I'm glad I changed.

[david]

Hi,
      I am in San Diego. If you would like, we can arrange to go out in my Bay Raider.

Regards,

David.

[Rob Waller]

I'm having a slightly different experience with the BRe from Peteri.
I have found forward visibility a problem, with a sprayhood, and always stand to steer when motoring through heavy traffic or moored boats. Having said that, I went out today with the water ballast tank full and visibility was definitely better. I imagine this is because without it my weight in the stern makes the bow rise a little. With the ballast, my weight makes less of an impact.

I find hoisting the mainsail quite hard... Going to try silicon spray, as it seems quite sticky and I struggle to raise the last couple of feet. I loosen the outhaul to get the sail up, then tighten it once it's up.