Self-bailers non-return?

[Jonathan Stuart]

I assumed the bailers on my BRe would be non-return, such that if left open they wouldn't let water in and would suck water out at around 4+ knots. However, they do let water in when open if the boat is stationary. This isn't a problem because the water only rises to a couple of inches deep in the rear sump, but I just wanted to check that this was a misunderstanding on my part and is expected behaviour?

[Llafurio]

.. However, they do let water in when open if the boat is stationary.

That is normal. The Andersen wedge shape bailers have little hinged flaps merely to hinder water to flow back in quickly, not to prevent that altogether.
However, these little flaps can jam in the open position, usually from small objects getting stuck inside the channel, or from algae growth. Just insert a little finger into the channel to check the flap is properly active, and to clear out the channel.

And having said that, it is also quite normal that these selfbailers before long start leaking a good bit when closed. From dirt and sand, and from their seal which ages.
So anyone who has selfbailers also inside the ballast tank should not be surprised to find the water level inside there rising even with the bailers being closed. Better not to have bailers in there.

[Jonathan Stuart]

Thanks, it's good to know this is expected behaviour. Mine are absolutely water tight when closed. They fill the sump in 1-2 mins when open but it's not the complete freeflow you would expect if the flaps weren't there. I'll check that they aren't stuck open.

[Peter Cockerton]

I was out the other day with Andy Dingle on the Walton Backwaters where we enjoyed some fantastic sailing in his early build epoxy ply version of the Bayraider 20. I mention this here just to point out that the method of filling his tank is using a selfbailer with the vent pointing forward to push water into the tank, so does this mean that the flap you refer to has been removed. So when closed it would entirely depend on the fitting seal to prevent water ingress to the tank.

Peter

[Llafurio]

Peter,
yes, I think all plywood BRs are force fed with ballast water via a reverse mounted bailer, as are all plywood SRs. Yes, these filling bailers have their flaps removed.

And yes, they also leak when closed. Not much, but one has to sponge out the tank  again the next day, and certainly the weekend after.

[Andy Dingle]

Hello All.

Noticed this thread and must confess to some confusion.

On reading it I ran out to my BR (Wood Epoxy, built in 2008, No 12) on my driveway at the moment, where it's been getting a good clean and sort out after a good weeks sailing down at Walton and off my own coast here.

As I thought, all three of my self bailers built into the water ballast tank are definitely facing REAR and and have all the 'flaps' in place - (Peter. I have emailed you separately. Are you still suffering the effects of that excellent Thatchers cider!?). I would be interested in knowing if BR's earlier than mine had forward facing 'bailers to 'force feed' the ballast tank as Claus informs?

My preferred method for filling the tank is to use the large rear 'bailer, push it open and close the hatch and let it fill. I have a built in vent in my ballast tank,  I was under the impression that all BR's (and BC's?) had the vent as standard, obviously not.

As with just about everyone else, emptying has been an issue. I had resorted to just letting it empty at the end of the day whilst pulling it up the trailer. But after reading posts in other threads have now purchased a 38 mm (with one way valve fitted) and 25 mm transom drain plugs and will be fitting them soon, again, to empty into the sump where I currently have an old 12v bilge pump to empty into the o/b well. I'll see if that will cope, if not I'll fit a whale pump.

As Claus rightly says, when left on a mooring my 'bailers do leak slightly, but so far this has never been an issue for me.


Fair winds!

Andy - and my ageing BayRaider  'Psalter'!

[Julian Swindell]

My Baycruiser is a bit different because it has two ballast tanks, one under teh cockpit and one under the forward V berth. They are connected by a reinforced hose at floor level. To fill, I have a forward facing self bailer in the cockpit tank, just under the hatch, This will fill just by opening it, but if I sail or motor, the water is forced in and it fills both tanks very quickly. To empty the tanks, I just have a manual bilge pump. It takes about 15 minutes to pump it out. There is a design flaw here, for a single hander. The pump sucks from the forward tank, but as the pump is in the cockpit, the rear of the boat goes down and that means a fair amount of water is still left in the cockpit tank. It is not a major problem, so I have not carried out the fairly major work of rerouting the pipework.

[Llafurio]

...
As I thought, all three of my self bailers built into the water ballast tank are definitely facing REAR and and have all the 'flaps' in place ...
My preferred method for filling the tank is to use the large rear 'bailer ....

Andy,
i really hate this confusion and it certainly is not my doing. The fitting out of the early BRs is such a chaos, and also of the later ones is difficult to comprehend, we really have no proper data to give proper advice.

Peter Cockerton told us you have one filling selfbailer facing forward. You tell us you don't. If you don't, please disregard my earlier posting.
But if you don't, I am puzzled how you ever fill your ballast tank, because while under way at proper speed, all your REAR facing bailers will not fill your tank.

Let me make clear that the plywood BRs and the plastic BRs are very different in many details, and I do not know very much about the wooden BRs apart from where they are similar to the SRs.

Claus

[Andy Dingle]

All...

Major cock-up on my part! I deeply regret causing such confusion.

I've been crawling under the boat again in the light of the above posts. Peter and Claus are absolutely right, my large 'bailer DOES face forward and DOESN'T have a sealing flap.
I initially looked at the SUMP 'bailer under the boat, the ballast 'bailer was hidden from view between the trailer rollers (that's my excuse anyway!). Or, as my nearest and dearest has just said - my excuse should be just because I am a bit dim!

Apologies to Peter and Claus, and sorry to everyone for confusing the issue - keeps the thread going tho' doesn't it!
By 'eck that Thatchers cider was good stuff.

Andy

[Llafurio]

Andy,
understood, thanks for the clarification. Things look different when under the boat looking up from standing up in the cockpit looking down. And "Thatcherism" doesn't always help .

[Reg Barker]

After reading all the articles on Sump Pumps – Self Bailers Help! Do you really need self-bailers if you fitted three water extraction exits so a sump pump is incorporated.  I can see the need for one self-bailer only for emptying when loading the boat on to the trailer.
To fill the boat with water for stability - ah ha - but you need a fair speed to get rid of water through the self-bailers, therefore why put water in the sump in the first place if you get my gist? I presume if the wind drops - oh - we need speed to get rid of the water. The sump pump seems the best option without the self-bailers
As a future owner of BRe what's the best idea? I know Matt is looking into another type of self-bailer.

[Rob Waller]

I think Reg has a point. The two self-bailers on my BRe have very little effect on the business of emptying the ballast tank while underway... Particularly since, as he suggests, the main reason to empty it at such a time is because the wind and therefore your speed has dropped.

I'm not sure the water ballast makes enough of a difference in those circumstances... Today in Chichester Harbour the tide was so strong  I was still going rapidly backwards even after I emptied the ballast tank.

In another thread it's mentioned that there is only a negligible amount of water left in the tank after it no longer flows into the sump... But in my BRe there is still 4 or 5 inches depth of water left once it stops flowing freely from the three drain plugs. I have found the only way to get it out is to use a hand pump through the access hatch. I have an Aquacharge electric pump, but it won't quite fit through... Although it is handy to help empty the sump. I think I'm going to leave the ballast in permanently, just emptying out enough to stop the level of water in the sump (with self bailers left open) from overflowing into the boat, which is moored.