Harbour Furling

[Llafurio]

...I have a wooden mast cap and mast heel epoxied into my CF mast, and a few other applications round the partners, and the results are fine. This is also in line with Swallowboats practice....

Michael,
I do not think Swallowboats are still using Epoxy to glue the wooden plugs in.

I had been using carbon windsurfer masts before Swallowboats started that, in fact it was I who had given Swallowboats that idea. And it was I who first got them to build a carbon mast, and who supplied the first carbon mast profile and plugs for it.

Like you yourself I had initially started using Epoxy to glue the plugs in. But before long I had seen three epoxied plugs come loose again, of which one came directly from Swallowboats, and that one fell clean out of the yard on day one of sailing.

Ever since (2008) I am using Sikaflex / Pantera to glue my plugs in, I did more than a dozen, all sorts, and ever since I did not ever again have any of those plugs come loose let alone fall out.

And to be honest, the idea to use Sikaflex was not even my own, but it came originally from the boatbuilder in the Netherlands who had supplied the first carbon mast profiles to me.

You may still be happy using Epoxy, but I would not recommend that to anyone else, least of all to Swallowboats. At least I told them since 2008 not to, and on the last boat I got from them I think the mast foot was indeed sikaflexed in, not epoxied.

P.S.
I am attaching a photo of one of my prior boats, a Drascombe Longboat, on which I had already fitted carbon topmast and mizzen mast, in order to be able to increase the sailarea. C.

[Michael Rogers]

Claus

Your first sentence - I think you're absolutely right, and I've a confession to make. Having written my previous (and before reading your measured reply), something made me go to my 'workshop waste' container and pull out the chunk of hardwood I referred to with attached CF tube end: and it's attached with what looks like Sikaflex, and certainly isn't epoxy. Sorry! ( I really must, late in the day as it is, learn to be a bit less impulsive.) All I can say is that I haven't had any problems - yet - using epoxy. If I do, I'll re-do with Sikaflex. And, everyone else, take no notice of me, listen to Claus.

Yours apologetically.

PS I suspect Tony, if he's 'listening', may wade in with 'never apologise' or some such. Not my style.

[Tony]

Hi, Michael.

I said - as you well know - "Never apologise for being right!" meaning that you had no need to, as  you were.         (Er....right, that is.....)
Which also means that I have to apologise quite a lot, myself. (I'm thinking of having an "ap" made for it on my i-phone.)
 
Claus has rather less need to do so (...apologise, not make an "ap"...) than most as I've never known him to be wrong about his boats.......but I'm quite willing to apologise if he HAS been.   (Enough! I'm getting light headed again!)

Hi, "Llafurio",

Thanks for showing the Photo of the automatic foot tensioner again. I didn't remember it being so simple. Have you ever rigged it with a 2:1 purchase or did I imagine that? I have invested in a length of non-stretchy stuff for fitting this system to both my lug sailed boats in the hope of more off wind and light wind performance. At the moment I have the outhauls twangingly taught (is there such a word?) in the vague hope of pointing a bit higher. (Not a lug sail's best attribute.)
Any thoughts on how to fit a cheek block to round section CF boom? I'm thinking I'll have to carve a piece of teak (flat one side, concave the other) and bolt through. Any simpler methods known? Photo shows end of "Wabi"'s boom taken during diss-assembly for converting the boom into a ridge pole for an awning over night.

BTW That has got to be the best looking Longboat I've seen for ages......

[Llafurio]

... the Photo of the automatic foot tensioner again. I didn't remember it being so simple. Have you ever rigged it with a 2:1 purchase or did I imagine that?

Hi Tony,
thanks for taking notice of the simplicity, that's the best bit. A foot tensioner / sail flattening that takes care of itself.: The stronger the wind, the flatter the sail, and all without the touch of a human hand.
You are right, there is a 2:1 purchase, but that is just the bit above the boom. But where the real multiple -and variable- purchase comes from is the bit under the boom. Theoretically, that purchase starts at "infinite:one", but it quickly -and automatically- decreases, with the angle of the rope increasing from the horizontal. It may look simple, but the mechanics are actually seriously complex, and I cannot offer the formula. What counts is that it works as desired. If you look at a magnification of the photo from the Venice Raid under reply #12 above, you see from the angle of the clew outhaul of the mainsail how well it works.

I would hesitate to claim it does significantly improve the tacking angle of the boat, but it does reduce the heel through flattening the Gunter and Bermudian mainsail belly.
I have no idea how exactly it does work for your own lug rig(s), I have no experience with the Devon Lugger or the CBL. 

See you in the Morbihan, looking forward to that,

Claus

[Peter Cockerton]

... the Photo of the automatic foot tensioner again. I didn't remember it being so simple. Have you ever rigged it with a 2:1 purchase or did I imagine that?

Hi Tony,
thanks for taking notice of the simplicity, that's the best bit. A foot tensioner / sail flattening that takes care of itself.: The stronger the wind, the flatter the sail, and all without the touch of a human hand.
You are right, there is a 2:1 purchase, but that is just the bit above the boom. But where the real multiple -and variable- purchase comes from is the bit under the boom. Theoretically, that purchase starts at "infinite:one", but it quickly -and automatically- decreases, with the angle of the rope increasing from the horizontal. It may look simple, but the mechanics are actually seriously complex, and I cannot offer the formula. What counts is that it works as desired. If you look at a magnification of the photo from the Venice Raid under reply #12 above, you see from the angle of the clew outhaul of the mainsail how well it works.

I would hesitate to claim it does significantly improve the tacking angle of the boat, but it does reduce the heel through flattening the Gunter and Bermudian mainsail belly.
I have no idea how exactly it does work for your own lug rig(s), I have no experience with the Devon Lugger or the CBL. 

See you in the Morbihan, looking forward to that,

Claus

Probably obvious to anyone that's implemented this foot tensioner/sail flattener but can i ask what happens when you reef the main and the clew goes further up the boom. I can see the outhaul being pulled towards the end of the boom by this arrangement but what keeps the clew close to the boom to tighten the leech. On my boat i have the reefing lines fed through anchored loops to pull the leech down to the boom. Also from your picture it looks as if the arrangement does not cater for quick reefing as the 2:1 block is lashed to the clew so do you undo this and lash it to the reef cringle.

Thanks

[Llafurio]

Probably obvious to anyone that's implemented this foot tensioner/sail flattener but can i ask what happens when you reef the main and the clew goes further up the boom. I can see the outhaul being pulled towards the end of the boom by this arrangement but what keeps the clew close to the boom to tighten the leech. On my boat i have the reefing lines fed through anchored loops to pull the leech down to the boom. Also from your picture it looks as if the arrangement does not cater for quick reefing as the 2:1 block is lashed to the clew so do you undo this and lash it to the reef cringle.
Thanks

Not sure I understand you.
The usual reefing is unaffected. The usual reefing lines (white) are clearly visible in the detail photo. If you really want to extra tension the foot of the reefed main, simply tie the reefed clew to the unreefed clew.

[Graham W]

I think what Peter is referring to is the tendency of the heavy standard wooden boom to droop a bit when reefed, thereby not keeping as much tension on the leech as might be hoped, despite quite a lot of tension on the outhaul. The simple remedy is to stick a line through the cringle or over the outhaul on the reefed clew and then secure the line underneath the boom.  See the attached photo (by John Macpherson) of Matthew P's 'Gladys' on Loch Ness in a bit of a blow. It's the dark blue line just above and to the left of Matthew's head. Through the cringle is probably preferable, otherwise it might interfere with any self-tensioning outhaul system.

[Llafurio]

I do not understand. When anyone does the usual reefing using the reefing lines depicted in the photo, there is no need at all for an extra line tying the clew to the boom. Pls. check the photo.

[Graham W]

Claus,

I think the white reefing lines in your photo are an extra refinement not found on standard BayRaiders.  Certainly not on 'Gladys' and not on mine either.  Hence the need to do something about the clew.

[Peter Cockerton]

I do not understand. When anyone does the usual reefing using the reefing lines depicted in the photo, there is no need at all for an extra line tying the clew to the boom. Pls. check the photo.

Claus

Thanks for pointing that out and i see now what you are saying as to how the clew is kept close to the boom when reefing, does the auto tensioning still work when the main is reefed as the reef lines will now fix the clew to a place on the boom will they not.
Only asking because i want to understand the in's and out's before implementing it.

Peter

[Llafurio]

... does the auto tensioning still work when the main is reefed ...

I had already answered that. Yes. Tie the reefed clew to the unreefed clew and when the latter is tensioned the attached clew follows.

P.S.
This thread is getting a bit out of hand now. It was started about harbourfurling and now it has gone on to reefing details completely unrelated to harbourfurling. Sorry.

[Peter Cockerton]

I think what Peter is referring to is the tendency of the heavy standard wooden boom to droop a bit when reefed, thereby not keeping as much tension on the leech as might be hoped, despite quite a lot of tension on the outhaul. The simple remedy is to stick a line through the cringle or over the outhaul on the reefed clew and then secure the line underneath the boom.  See the attached photo (by John Macpherson) of Matthew P's 'Gladys' on Loch Ness in a bit of a blow. It's the dark blue line just above and to the left of Matthew's head. Through the cringle is probably preferable, otherwise it might interfere with any self-tensioning outhaul system.

Graham

Thanks for thought process and weedling out my point i was trying to understand.
With Claus's modified reefing method it resolves the problem i have experienced and considering how best to fix.
As far as tensioning the reefed clew to tighten the foot i now see what is being explained as tying the reefed clew to the unreefed clew and the original outhaul will pull the foot out. I guess the ability of the auto tensioner to achieve a fuller sail under reefed conditions is limited due to the reefed clew being pulled dow hard to the boom, not so much of a problem i guess as the wind strength must be strong to warrant reefing anyway.

Thanks

[david]

Hi All,
           Tried a few different methods for furling over the past few weeks. I have found that if I use a combination of Claus and Graham's methods, it works well for me in any wind conditions. All I do is bring the gaff down to rest on the mast support by the mizzen, release the tack and downhaul. Roll the sail up using the boom to help have an even roll. Tie sail, boom and gaff with sail ties to make a neat roll. Simple and effective. No need to lift the heavy boom above my head or attach topping lines. Plus, I can do this sitting down! an added benifit in seas a heaving.

[Tony]

P.S.
This thread is getting a bit out of hand now. It was started about harbourfurling and now it has gone on to reefing details completely unrelated to harbourfurling. Sorry.
[/quote]



Hi, Claus.

Getting out of hand?  I call it useful progression - and "never apologize" for being right (and useful!)

( Morbihan 2013? Had to miss the last one - will not miss this. )

[david]

Hi All,
          Sorry to see Claus leave. I understand his point. I see the burgee thing as innocent and not an attempt to "organize" the followers on this forum. I certainly do not want an organized
"Club" either. I hope Claus will also see the innocence in this also. I will miss his help and suggestions.

Regards,

David.