Author Topic: Mainsail leach flutter.  (Read 14821 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Andy Dingle

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 428
Re: Mainsail leach flutter.
« Reply #15 on: 20 Nov 2013, 20:03 »
Thanks for all the input on this problem.

I've got my main sail back from being recut. As I said earlier Dan the sailmaker (whose main business is designing and making racing dinghy sails), his first reaction was that firstly, the sail was of a poor standard generally (friday sail!) and secondly that the there was little or no curvature in the leach which would account for the flutter.

I do not want to go to the expense of replacing the sails as I have other plans for my rig. So we agreed to a process of elimination to try and find the problem, the first thing being that he would recut the sail and if this wasn't successful then to fit battens and a leach line.

I've attached a picture of the newly cut main laid out on the ground, I've put down some wood along the leach to show how it was before and how it is now. Dan is fairly confident that this will sort the problem.

I've given much thought to the the soft gaff spar problem. Mine is the AMEX 430 with an IMCS of 21. I thought about boring it out and sliding some stiffening material (thick bamboo or aluminium tube?) up it, but I've given it some unscientific flexibility tests - trying to bend it for all my worth but found it quite stiff, particularly the top half which extends beyond the top of the mast which should be the only bit that flexes, this led me to think that the falling away problem may not be the flexibility of the spar, but the fixing point ie the main halyard, where it is supposed to hold it 'tight' to the top of the mast.
I am not now convinced that this is secure and strong enough to hold it rigid, especially when some down haul on the luff is applied. There are too many flexible and 'stretchy' materials to clamp it tightly enough to the mast. So am trying to think of a better way to hold the gaff spar tight against the top of the mast before I do anything drastic with the spar.
You're thoughts on this would be appreciated?

The weather has conspired against me this past week or so so have not yet tried the main in anger but will report back when I have done.

Cheers

Andy

Julian Swindell

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 682
Re: Mainsail leach flutter.
« Reply #16 on: 21 Nov 2013, 13:12 »
An earlier post, now removed I suspect, suggested boring a reinforced hole through the yard, passing the halyard from the sheave on the mast through that hole and then knotting it. This allows the yard to be pulled up tight to the mast, with no knot between the two spars, but means you have bored a hole through the yard at its most stressed point...

On another tack, if I can use a sailing metaphor, I am a bit puzzled by how concerned several owners are with the slight looseness in their Bayraider's rig. These are gunter rigged boats with stayless, self tacking jibs. This means the spars stow easily in the boat and the jib looks after itself when tacking. It also means the rig will inevitably be a little loose. There is no forestay and the mast is in two parts with open joints. If tautness of stays and sails is really important to you, then you should think of going to a Bermudan solid mast with a stayed jib. You'll get a sail as rigid as a board and shrouds you can pluck tunes from. But then you won't be able to stow the spars on board and you will have to handle jib sheets. All boats (and their rigs) are compromises. I fear if you keep trying to get the gunter sail to be really taut, you will risk breaking the jib boom at its pivot point.
Julian Swindell
BayCruiser 20 Daisy Grace
http://jegsboat.wordpress.com/
Guillemot building blog
https://jegsguillemot.wordpress.com/

Jonathan Stuart

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 614
Re: Mainsail leach flutter.
« Reply #17 on: 21 Nov 2013, 13:33 »
I don't know the full background to why Andy is looking to make this change, but having sailed on his boat I know the sail "thrums" significantly and loudly at times! If it were my boat then I would want to fix this just to reduce the noise and regardless of performance or rig tautness, etc!

Given that SwallowBoats has a standard option of a stiffer yard I wonder if this is a known problem and whether the standard yard is too soft for stronger winds?
Jonathan

Ex - BayCruiser 26 #11 "Bagpuss"
Ex - BayRaider Expedition #3 "Mallory"

Andy Dingle

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 428
Re: Mainsail leach flutter.
« Reply #18 on: 21 Nov 2013, 15:42 »
Julian.
You are, of course, quite right in what you say about the rig of the Bayraider, indeed one of the most attractive features of the boat is the ability to stow the rig within the boat which makes it such an adaptable trailer sailor, and with that in mind there must be some design compromises made.

I have sailed on a Bayraider with a full 'bermudan' rig with a full length solid mast and his mains'l sets quite perfectly, but he has to sacrifice some of the boats versatility. However Jonathon very eloquently makes my point on my behalf, the sail does flutter and 'thrum', to my intense annoyance!

If not just for the negative visual impact this makes, I am keen to improve and better my boats performance within my limited abilities. Hence my experimenting with my rig. Also, but no less important to me, it's good fun!
I thought to share my experiences with others, some of whom may even find it mildly interesting!

I take on board (if I may use another sailing metaphor!) your very important point about the stress on the jib boom, it is not my intention to increase the tension on the 'forestay' but to work out a better way to secure the midway point on the gunter spar to the top of the mast, I have seen the other suggestions on the forum and I agree that drilling a hole at this point would, I imagine, weaken it considerably. I'm hoping to come up with an idea that is simple, but will clamp the spar in tightly... any suggestion would be very welcome!


Regards

Graham W

  • Global Moderator
  • Demigod
  • *****
  • Posts: 2506
Re: Mainsail leach flutter.
« Reply #19 on: 21 Nov 2013, 16:02 »
In reply to Julian's point about the stowing advantages of a gunter rig (which I agree with) and the resulting degree of rig looseness, I've found that it is possible to have my cake and eat it.  I wouldn't dream of changing to Bermudan but I have stiffened my gunter rig up in a number of ways:
1.  Changed the sails to Hydes, which are stronger, better cut and have leech lines to get rid of the now rare instances of thrumming.  I had almost unbearable thrumming from my old Dolphin jib and mainsail until I discovered what the leech lines were for
2.  Installed a stiffer yard.  The original standard yard, including Andy's, has a low IMCS and is somewhat bendy.  Just how bendy was demonstrated in a photo that has now been deleted from the forum
3.  Bored a small hole through the yard to accommodate the main halyard and strengthened the hole where the mains stresses are, which counter-intuitively is on the forward part facing the mast
4.  Changed the main halyard to less stretchy cruising Dyneema
5.  Got rid of the jib boom altogether and now sail with a conventionally-sheeted jib flying off a small bowsprit.  I like having extra bits of string to play with, even when solo.

Tinkering with a boat like this isn't for everyone but like Andy I have fun improving things.  It's worked so far and if anything breaks, I'll let you know!
Graham
Gunter-rigged GRP BR20 #59 Turaco III

Simon Holden

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 25
Re: Mainsail leach flutter.
« Reply #20 on: 21 Nov 2013, 20:53 »
With much fear and trepidation, might I suggest the 'retro' fitting of a good old hollow, square section, wooden yard?

Very light
Rigid
Clamps up "tight as a gnat's...." to the back of a square section mast
No confusing IMCSs
Takes a screw (if you pardon the expression)
..and looks great into the bargain!

Not quite sure why they were ever dropped in favour of the plastic ones - more pricey to manufacture I guess?

OK.... I'll sneak off back into my little 'very last decade' hole!

Simon

Storm 17 'Olivia Eva'

Julian Swindell

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 682
Re: Mainsail leach flutter.
« Reply #21 on: 22 Nov 2013, 09:19 »
I hope no one thought I was being critical. Far from it, I spend my life fiddling with aspects of my boat. I was just making the old point that different rigs have different compromises. I also detest flapping and thrumming sails, but now I have full length battens it doesn't happen. Not yet anyway.

I would also endorse the comments about the high quality of Hyde sails. My original mainsail (by Jeckels) was fine, but after I rather bizarrely managed to lose it and my boom, Swallowboats replaced it with the fully battened Hyde mainsail that they now use for Baycruisers. I was really impressed by the cut and attention to detail of every part of the sail. Even the way the battens are inserted and removed has been thought out in very clever ways. And it just drops down into the stack pack on the boom and disappears in half a minute. Bermudan masts don't stow away on board, but they are wonderful when it comes to reefing and stowing the main sail...
Julian Swindell
BayCruiser 20 Daisy Grace
http://jegsboat.wordpress.com/
Guillemot building blog
https://jegsguillemot.wordpress.com/

Colin Morley

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 209
Re: Mainsail leach flutter.
« Reply #22 on: 21 Apr 2014, 09:09 »
Sorry to be so slow in replying. I have been off games having surgery during the last few months. Now almost shipshape and ready to go.

There is actually only one batten. It is 50 cm long and 210 cm down the leach by a main seam.
Colin
BR James Caird

James Bennett

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12
Re: Mainsail leach flutter.
« Reply #23 on: 29 May 2014, 01:32 »
 The issue of flutter on the leach of the Bay Raider 20 main sail has been the subject of many discussions in the forum pages. As I have had the same problem on the main sail of my Bay Raider 20 “Kailani”, I thought that I would share how I have decided to go about tackling this issue. My main sail is cream coloured and was made by Dolphin Sails. The sail has a leach line.
 
A local sail maker here in Perth, Western Australia who specialises in gaff and gunter rigged boats, requested that we start the process by taking a series of photographs looking up the leach and luff of the sail as well as a couple of pictures from about mid-boom. All photographs were taken with the boat sailing reasonably close hauled in about 12-14 knots of wind.
The first issue clearly seen on the photographs was the softness of the gunter. I received advice from Andrew Denman at Denman Marine in Tasmania on how to stiffen the spar, he put me in touch with the carbon specialists at Soller Composites in the USA

http://www.sollercomposites.com/composites/carbon%20fiber%20sleeves.html

The guys at Soller Composites were extremely helpful as I am no expert with composites, they confirmed Andrew’s recommendations.
I ordered one layer of Uni Sleeve (1” to 2.75”) and one length of biaxial sleeve (2.5”). In each case I ordered enough to cover the gunter from around 300mm below the halyard host (full mainsail, no reefing) to the mast tip. This cost around US$150.00 including air-freight.
The carbon fibre arrived 10 days later in a small box. I had spoken to the guys at Soller and they recommended that I buy several sets of rubber gloves and wet out the carbon with my bare hands. I was somewhat sceptical of this advice; it did however prove to be the best method.

I carefully measured and photographs all the fittings on the gunter before removing them. The wooden block at the halyard hoist was left in place, as it proved extremely hard to remove. This was mistake, as it caused some distortion to the carbon sleeving. In retrospect I should have removed it even if it meant destroying it.

I slung the yard from my garage roof at a comfortable working height above the floor, with the tip held by a thin rope threaded through the hole in the wooded plug at the tip and a simple loop of rope around the gaff jaws. It is important to make an arrangement that allows the yard to rotate as you work the resin into the carbon.

I had a moment’s dilemma as to whether I should wet out both sleeves of carbon together or separately. The guys at Soller recommended a one shot approach.  The Uni presents as an expandable tube of unidirectional carbon strips. It is quite sticky and needed to be very carefully placed over and then pulled down the mast. The Uni is made with elasticated transverse material  that allows the tube of Uni to expand while at the same time holding the Uni-directional carbon fibres in place. The sleeve can expand from 1’ to a maximum of 2.75”. It is important that all the fibres are kept straight as the tube of Uni is slowly pulled over the mast.
The tube of biaxial was then carefully slipped over the mast tip. This material was more robust, and can be pulled over the mast quite easily. The biaxial looks like the outer sheaf of a braided rope.

Once the two layers of carbon were in place I mixed the epoxy resin and proceeded to wet out the carbon. As expected a lot of resin ended up on the garage floor. The whole process took me around 1 hour. I had some problems in finishing the ends of the carbon, and in hindsight should have ordered around 0.5 metres of additional biaxial so that the unidirectional material was completely covered by the biaxial. The Uni-directional stretched during the wetting out process and ended up protruding from the biaxial, not a big issue, more cosmetic than a problem.
After the resin had cured I lightly sanded the ends of the carbon to remove any stray filaments, reattached the fittings and re-lashed the mainsail to the gunter. This requires additional rope as the diameter of the gunter was slightly larger. I estimated that I added about 1.5kg to the weight of the gunter, though I should have checked the weight more carefully before and after. Also in my enthusiasm to get started I forgot to conduct my own before and after stiffness check of the yard.

A subsequent set of photographs taken while sailing showed that the yard was now much stiffer and did not bend off to leeward in a gust. The leach of the main sail still fluttered, so the next move was to re-cut the shape of the main sail.

The sail maker chose to re-cut the sail, by altering the shape at the luff. Instead of having a straight luff line from downhaul to mast tip the luff was angled back into the body of the sail from the point where the gaff jaws are located. This shortened the sail height by about 120mm, but tightens the leach when the gunter is hoisted and pulled up tight to the mast. In addition more eyelets were added to the sail so that the sail is lashed to the gunter in around double the number of places compared to the previously arrangement. We also had three short battens added to the leach. See photograph and drawing.

 This work has almost completely removed the leach flutter, the sail sets well and the additional lashing points on the gunter gives the sail a far better shape near the top.
I would recommend this path to anyone wanting to find a method by which leach flutter can be reduced to a more acceptable level, but is not ready to buy a new mainsail.
James Bennett
GRP BR20 "Kailani"