Author Topic: Mast rake  (Read 13464 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Julian Swindell

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 682
Mast rake
« on: 19 May 2014, 12:25 »
There has been  bit of talk about mast rake on another thread, so I thought I would continue it here.
When I looked at my boat from the side a couple of weeks ago, I was fairly sure the mast was leaning forward slightly. If anything, I think it should rake backwards a bit. So this last weekend I tackled it.
First, I floated the boat in some sheltered shallow water (just off Brownsea Island) and hung a weight from the topping lift, which comes from the  very top of the mast. This gives a much better measure of verticality than trying to measure any angles from the  boat, as everything slopes. The mast was leaning forward very slightly. So I adjusted the shroud fixings, which involved overall raising and lowering the mast three times. (The first attempt resulted in the boom hitting the boom gallows when the mainsail was hauled in tight, not a good idea.) Its quite a lengthy process as I had to remove and set the mainsail each time to make sure the boom did clear the gallows.
The mast now rakes sternwards, but probably not quite as much as the photo indicates, where I think vertical perspective is playing up a bit. The boat still sails as well as before, but gets a bit heavy on the helm if I forget to tighten the foot of the main when the breeze increases. She sails remarkably well just under mainsail alone. I can even tie the tiller and leave her to herself on a reach, which is always comforting. When I'm feeling lazy, a single sail is very relaxing to manage.
Julian Swindell
BayCruiser 20 Daisy Grace
http://jegsboat.wordpress.com/
Guillemot building blog
https://jegsguillemot.wordpress.com/

Colin Morley

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 209
Re: Mast rake
« Reply #1 on: 19 May 2014, 15:26 »
Thanks Matt.

This is just the sort of thing I have done. However, I am a scientist and so I need so numbers. I am hoping Matt might enlighten us about the angles, tensions etc that the boat was designed for.

Best wishes
Colin
BR James Caird

Julian Swindell

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 682
Re: Mast rake
« Reply #2 on: 19 May 2014, 15:47 »
Matt?
Julian Swindell
BayCruiser 20 Daisy Grace
http://jegsboat.wordpress.com/
Guillemot building blog
https://jegsguillemot.wordpress.com/

Colin Morley

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 209
Re: Mast rake
« Reply #3 on: 19 May 2014, 18:04 »
Matt Newland. The boat design boss.
Colin
BR James Caird

Matt Newland

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 89
Re: Mast rake
« Reply #4 on: 19 May 2014, 20:35 »
Colin, Julian et al.

The mast should be somewhere between 2 and 4 degrees aft. On the BR20 and BRe, the mast base should be roughly evenly touching the deck all round. The deck slopes up by a similar amount, giving a good indication of rake.
There is some room to move though, with our tabernacle boats (all those starting with Bay).

Generally if you end up block to Jib head then you have too little rake. If you end up with an uncomfortably low boom, you have too much. Too much will induce weather helm (tending to round the boat up into the wind). Too little and you might end up with a neutral or even lee helm.

It is worth bearing in mind the following points.

If the lashing at the shroud base is new, or has been disturbed, then it will stretch a bit as it beds in. So always over do the rake slightly as the first stiff breeze will induce a more upright mast.

Colin was asking about tension. The tension is only put in by how much you haul on the jib halyard, and by how hard you sail her. The lashings at the base of the mast are only for setting the shroud length, not for tensioning them. FYI the tension in the shrouds reaches about 600kg when sailing downwind in a blow, in a BR20, but initially when you rig the boat, you would struggle to put more than 200kg into it.

Remember when you do adjust it, to put the lashing back as you found it, with at least 4 full turns between shroud and chainplate. A tip when adjusting is only to do 1 or 2 turns and tie off loosely. In this way you can quickly check the rake and any athwartships drift, before finishing the turns and tying off.

So in summary, the mast rake is important, but probably not worth loosing sleep over. It can affect the feel of the helm and the look of your boat and between 2 and 4 degrees is ideal.

Hope that helps.
Matt


Julian Swindell

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 682
Re: Mast rake
« Reply #5 on: 20 May 2014, 09:27 »
Hi Matt
Your comment that having the jib block is too close to the mast indicates too little rake is really useful. I had often thought that the head of my jib was too close to the mast for comfort, and that would match with my feeling that the mast was not raked enough. I have to be careful with my retro fitted boom gallows, which limits how much rake I can induce.

An interesting related point. A couple of years ago I tied up in Yarmouth harbour. When I walked around the pontoons to go ashore, I had a straight on view of my boat from astern from some distance away and for the first time I noticed that my mast was leaning noticeably to port. It was undetectable on board, so it is worth while viewing your boat from a distance. It accounted for why I could sail closer to the wind on one tack and not the other, which had always puzzled me.
Julian Swindell
BayCruiser 20 Daisy Grace
http://jegsboat.wordpress.com/
Guillemot building blog
https://jegsguillemot.wordpress.com/

Peter Cockerton

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 585
Re: Mast rake
« Reply #6 on: 21 May 2014, 08:46 »
If i hang a plumb line from the top of my one piece mast ( 7 mtrs long say) and i want to achieve an angle of 3 degrees aft rake what would the distance be between the mast base and the plumb line. If i had took more interest at school ( 45 yrs ago) i could work this out. The length of the hypot something is equal to the sum of some side or other.

Many thanks if someone can work it out.

Peter Cockerton
Bayraider 20 mk2
Larger jib set on bowsprit with AeroLuff spar
USA rig
Carbon Fibre main boom with sail stack pack
Epropulsion Spirit Plus Outboard

Jonathan Stuart

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 614
Re: Mast rake
« Reply #7 on: 21 May 2014, 09:06 »
My vote is for that distance to be 36.6cm. It's a bit more complex than Pythagoras's theorem because you know the length of the hypotenuse but not the other two sides, so you need to use the angles too. I have to confess I couldn't remember how to do this either so used an online calculator:

http://www.calculator.net/triangle-calculator.html
Jonathan

Ex - BayCruiser 26 #11 "Bagpuss"
Ex - BayRaider Expedition #3 "Mallory"

Simon Holden

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 25
Re: Mast rake
« Reply #8 on: 21 May 2014, 10:21 »
The subject of mast rake was mentioned in a previous post, as I too had this problem when setting up the mast on my Storm 17.
I came up with a solution which is probably easier/more reproducible than using a plumb-line attached to the top of the mast.
I contacted Matt who kindly emailed me PDFs of the plans for the S17 (I'm sure he could do the same for the BR20 etc).
I then opened the 'profile' plan and scaled up the image before printing it out on A4.
This enabled me to accurately measure the angle between the front face of the mast and the kingplank on the plans and I subsequently made up a triangular plywood angle guide accordingly - with approx 50cm sides .
I then used this guide (a bit like a set-square, although < 90 degrees) on my boat between king plank and mast, and set the lengths of the shrouds accordingly whilst playing with the set of the jib to get all the tensions correct.
Frequent reference back to my 'set-square' ensured everything stayed true.
Once you've made the angle guide you can easily keep it in the boot of the car to check the angle and correct rake each time you tension the forestay.
Hope this helps - it worked well for me!
Simon
Storm 17 'Olivia Eva'

Peter Cockerton

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 585
Re: Mast rake
« Reply #9 on: 21 May 2014, 15:56 »
My vote is for that distance to be 36.6cm. It's a bit more complex than Pythagoras's theorem because you know the length of the hypotenuse but not the other two sides, so you need to use the angles too. I have to confess I couldn't remember how to do this either so used an online calculator:

http://www.calculator.net/triangle-calculator.html

Thanks for that Jonathon, will need to do this i guess when the boat is on the water. Tried whilst on the trailer but you can,t get the measurement right even with measuring  from the waterline to the ground and taking that difference into account.

Bayraider 20 mk2
Larger jib set on bowsprit with AeroLuff spar
USA rig
Carbon Fibre main boom with sail stack pack
Epropulsion Spirit Plus Outboard

Peter Taylor

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 524
Re: Mast rake
« Reply #10 on: 25 May 2014, 08:14 »
A tip for determining mast rake is to use your phone! Smart phones contain accelerometers which allow them to orientate the screen correctly. My iphone came with a Compass app (they contain a flux-gate compass too) and page 2 of that app is a digital spirit level. I assume a similar app is available for android phones. The digital spirit level has the advantage over traditional ones in that you can work out the rake (to the nearest degree) even if the boat is not level. In the photos my phone (in a dusty waterproof case on the cabin table) is showing that Seatern is trimmed 1 degree down by the bow.

Having said all this I won't be checking the rake of the mast as I lower and raise it on the water during each trip I make! However this morning at the jetty it was raked 2 degrees aft.
Peter
Peter Taylor
BayCruiser 20 "Seatern" (009)
http://www.seatern.uk

Peter Cockerton

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 585
Re: Mast rake
« Reply #11 on: 25 May 2014, 09:27 »
Peter

Many thanks for the iphone tip, i will get onto this today and check mine out, this will make it so much easier. Also checked public weighbridges in my area to get the trailer and boat weighed after the postings on the forum. I must admit i always had it in my head that i wasn't close to the 750kgs limit for unbraked trailers.

Peter
Bayraider 20 mk2
Larger jib set on bowsprit with AeroLuff spar
USA rig
Carbon Fibre main boom with sail stack pack
Epropulsion Spirit Plus Outboard

Colin Morley

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 209
Re: Mast rake
« Reply #12 on: 25 May 2014, 16:48 »
Hi Matt (Newland),

Thank you for your advice. It is much appreciated. Good to have some guidelines.

Colin
BR James Caird

Border Terrier

  • Guest
Re: Mast rake
« Reply #13 on: 31 Jul 2014, 13:28 »
[message deleted by administrator because it had been hacked and the original can't be restored]

david

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 257
Re: Mast rake
« Reply #14 on: 21 Sep 2014, 17:06 »
Well, the things you learn on this forum. There I was happy with my boat, when along comes this string on the forum. Thank goodness. I realized that my mast rake was not correct. My mast was going forward of true! In trying to figure out why, after adjusting shrouds etc I was still unable to get it right. I finally figured out that the shrouds were to long and was not allowing me enough adjustment space with the strops, (Substitute lashings for strops per my learning in a latter forum string).
  Finally fixed, (Read shortened), with a trip to my local rigging shop. $45 latter I had room to adjust the shrouds.
( Here are before and after pics.)
David

Ex - BR 20 - Nomad