Swallow Yachts Association
Swallow Yachts Forum => General Discussion => Topic started by: Graham W on 23 Apr 2022, 19:22
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This is probably not going to be seen by those who have already moved on and who might give the most interesting answers but here goes anyway.
It always surprises me when I see Swallow owners putting their craft up for sale. When it’s not stated, I’m intrigued to know how they came to make such an epic decision.
Obvious reasons include moving up the range. But what about other less obvious reasons? Answers on a postcard please.
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OK, I'll go first. I've had two Swallow boats, a Bayraider 17 and and BC23. The first was easy, it was a great first boat, used it mostly on Derwent Reservoir in Co Durham, plus Ullswater and the North sea out of the Tyne. Moved on because I wanted to get into more yachty stuff at sea, and that's not the BR17.
BC23 is harder. I had had a 26ft long keeled wooden yacht, a Holman 26. I was enjoying the north east coast but wanted to explore further afield and thought a good trailerable mini yacht, big enough to live on for a little while but moveable around the country, would do that. And it does in many ways. Very easy to launch and retrieve for a boat of its size (since had a Norfolk Gypsy, now try that in comparison). Took the 23 to Mylor, great fun. Sailed up and down the Northumberland coast for a year or two, mostly single handed, nice. But what made me finally sell her was that the BC23 is a boat that has to be sailed. You have to be on her case all the time, hand on the tiller, hand on the main sheet. Want a pee? Heave to. Boil a kettle? Stop the boat. It's very responsive, very quick, but the downside is that she needs to be actively sailed like a dinghy, not passively sailed like a yacht. And that's just not for me. By myself, I need to be able to relax on the water, and with the BC23 I was having to concentrate all the time. I suspect that many Swallow boat owners have moved up from dinghies and are enjoying the space etc, and that sort of thing is second nature. Just not me.
Just for reference, I tried again as I mentioned with a Norfolk Gypsy, looking for a trailerable boat that sails well, looks great, sails ok. And the Gypsy was a better balance for me, much heavier, 1500kg displacement, long keel, steady, about the same accomodation, sails in a straight line long enough to put the kettle on. But, launching, you have to submerge the whole trailer and float the boat off, very heavy to tow, the whole "let's go to the Clyde for a week" thing is possible, but pretty stressful.
So I'm back to a bigger boat, just got a nice Vancouver 27. Different thing altogether.
I have a huge affection for Swallow boats (sorry, yachts. Actually, not yachts, well maybe the 26 is). I love the looks, the company is great, they make me smile. And maybe that's the joy of the whole thing, that we are all looking for our boat, and our needs are all different.
Well, you asked, hope this helps. I still keep on eye on this forum, just out of interest. Glad you're all having fun. Keep sailing....
Mark
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Mark,
Very interesting answer, thank you.
My first ever boat was a Norfolk Gypsy, which I sold when I moved away from Dover, became very busy at work and couldn’t really afford the upkeep. Solid as a rock. I took it down to the South of France and left it there for a couple of seasons and also based it at Pwllheli Marina for a bit. As you say, it’s not a boat for impulsive trailering trips. I used the diesel inboard on it far more than I ever use an engine/motor on my BR20. And you’re right about the relaxation bit - you definitely need to concentrate when sailing a BR20. The Gypsy came with an Autohelm linked to the wind indicator and fluxgate compass, which made single handing an absolute doddle.
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Mark, very interesting answer.
Yes, I am more of a small boat sailor but have been all the way up to a 90 ton circumnavigation, and back down again.
I think many folks sail single handed with an unnecessary amount of sail, but then I have yet to take delivery of my BC 23. Certainly I find it true cruising my wooden Bayraider 20, especially upwind….waterline length is the limiter anyway.
I will be very interested to see other prior owners comments.
Good idea Graham!
Regards,
Mark
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This post might have more takers if the question is extended to why *might I eventually* sell my swallow. In my case, having otherwise sailed various Drascombes, amongst many, many fine features with the BC20, it's a joy to have a boat which really does bite into the wind, much safer with the water ballast, and the extra cabin space is welcome. However, when moving up to the BC20, I always knew that one day she would become too big for me, too heavy to launch and manage single handed, and I would then downsize, probably back to a Drascombe Lugger, or equivalent. So, when that day comes, I suspect it will be due to wanting a more manageable boat, less back-breaking pumping out of the water ballast at the end of a trip.
But it is interesting to read MB's comments on the BC needing constant attention under way, since that’s exactly what I've found. On the coaster, which was by no means perfect in this regard, I could more readily dive down below and fetch out a stove to make a hot drink. It's harder with the BC20 since she's much more difficult to balance - almost permanent hand on tiller to maintain a constant direction. So, being hove-to is a well-practised routine - and it's very effective. But, I probably could do with reading a thread or two on here about trimming sails, weather helm, etc. I know they exist…
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JM _ "This post might have more takers if the question is extended to why *might I eventually* sell my swallow."
At the moment, I'll sell my BRe if/when I can see a way to move up to a BC 23.....
Perhaps more interestingly, I sold a very nice, nearly-new Drascombe Lugger and upgraded to my BRe because I found the Lugger so unsatisfying and boring to sail!
As JM says, it just wouldn't go to windward at all.
I found the Lugger to be sub-optimal, both sailing and motoring...too big a compromise for me.
At the time I was <60, things might be different >70, even as a retired dinghy racer ;)
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Regarding the comments from MB about sailing of BC23 requiring 'hand on tiller', I would be interested to hear if this also applies to the BC26.
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I wouldn't recommend trying to sail a BC26 solo without a tiller pilot. Given a cooperative wind, not too much in the way of waves and a bit of tweaking of the sails you can get a BC26 to sail without your hand on the tiller, but for the sake of the 5 seconds that it takes to swing the tiller pilot across and press the auto button, what's the point? I mostly sail solo and I think the tiller pilot does 50% of the steering. Upwind I probably do more on the helm, partly because it's fun, partly because I think I can do better, and partly because the TP can be working quite hard, so a bit noisy. Downwind it probably does a better job than I do, especially if you're getting near a dead run when it's less likely to induce an accidental gybe than I am because I'm not paying attention. If I have the asymmetric up then the TP does all the steering as I have my hands full on the sheet. If you really want a boat that sails itself for some time without touching the helm I think you need a good old fashioned long keeler with lots of ballast, but where's the fun in that??
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Well that got some very interesting replies, nice one Graham.
Some points though, I sail almost exclusively single handed and although my rig is different from standard I feel the following would still apply.
I use and Autohelm 2000 and it works just fine, I have time enough to hoist the spinnaker, trim the sails, make a cup of tea etc.
Hoisting Papagena out of the water became very easy for this 73 year old thanks to Rob's advice on an electric winch.
Pumping out the ballast takes less than 3 min (nearer 1.5) with an electric bilge pump.
All of these require batteries so I bought security system batteries for the on boat stuff and made a box and put a small car battery for the winch, which charges from the car when towing.
All easy to fit and inexpensive to buy.
If anyone would like details send me an email on timlemare@gmail.com
So absolutely no chance of me selling Papagena! :D
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Hi all,
Very interesting thread, just one extra observation from my experience, and that is about a tillerpilot. Essential, as we all seem to agree, for sailing a BC23 or equivalent single handed. I found it was pretty effective under sail, having to work quite hard, and I felt I needed to be around in case of gusts, but under sail it keeps the boat in the right direction under not very gusty conditions. But motoring, forget it. I think it might be because an outboard engine in an inboard well is so close to the tillerpilot that electrical spikes from the engine interferes with the fluxgate compass too much. Which for me was annoying, having to motor up the Tyne for half an hour to the marina, and unable to rely on the tillerpilot to allow me to get fenders ready etc etc. Maybe others have found a way to suppress the interference, I never succeeded.
Cheers
Mark
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Good point Mark, I have found the same so I put it on standby and use it to keep the rudder central whilst I put out fenders, which are clip on to fixed dyneema, so very quick.
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I've owned two Swallows, a BRe and a BC26. I could talk about them, and why we sold them at great length, but I'll keep this short. We loved the BRe and ended-up with the 4 of us (2 adults, 2 kids) sleeping on her for trips of around a week. We sailed her locally and towed her to Cornwall and Scotland. It was brilliant, highly recommended. But the kids grew, the cramped conditions weren't always fun and the lack of a heads would become an issue (esp. teenage daughter) so we sold the BRe for something bigger. Decided on a BC26. A fantastic boat in many ways and we had great trips on her. But we couldn't / didn't trailer sail her in the same way, I found launching/recovery overly stressful (so she lived on a marina berth) and our trips didn't have the same sense of adventure and simpicity - almost a Swallows and Amazons spirit - that we enjoyed on the BRe. That meant we used the BC26 less and decided to sell.
I had never owned a boat larger than a BRe before the BC26, so I didn't know how different it would be. Perhaps I was naive. Really, I guess I wanted the berths and heads of a 26 yet be as easy to tow, rig, launch, etc, as a BRe, which of course doesn't exist. Every boat brings compromises and, with hindsight, the BRe was the best set of compromises for us. If I knew then what I know now, perhaps I would have decided to keep the BRe and simply change how we use her. But we didn't want to revert to mostly day sailing.
We're now currently boatless and it was a relief in April when I realised we didn't have to think about rigging and launching the BC26. But I'm missing getting on the water and have a dilemma as to what to buy next. May be another BRe (or a BR20 with camping setup) when the kids have finished school and it's just my wife and I sailing her :-).
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Jonathan, I found your post interesting, and especially the contrast between your experience of the BRe and the BC26. I am splitting the difference and stepping up to the BC 23 for just that reason…I love the simplicity of my wooden BR20 but want to offer my wife a wee bit more comfort without loosing the simplicity. After this season I will report back!
PS. I am not selling “Pippin” until I am convinced I have made the right choice!
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Thanks Mark. We also looked at the BC23 and took a long time to decide on the BC26. The 23 is lovely but given there were 4 of us sleeping on the boat, we decided if we were to upgrade we should go for the BC26. I strongly suspect that decision would have been different if it were just my wife and me.
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A rather belated hello.
I was selling my BC20 around the time this post was put up.
I rather think I may have been amongst those that triggered the thought, indeed one member was so curious he emailed me. The forum deserves/expects an answer to why I sold?
Context.
I have sailed extensively all my life and I am now 62. YW pram, YW Dayboat, Mirror, Wayfarer, 420, 470 . 21 foot bilge keel Mystic and my Fathers Atalanta 26 twin lift keel cruiser...up until about the age 24. On open coastal water of the upper Bristol Channel and coastal cruising on teh south coast and over to France Thornbury Sailing Club if anyone knows it. At times wild and windy.
I then took a job as a sailing instructor with the famous I.C.C. in Salcombe (Very sadly now history).
I sailed , open clinker 14 footers, Wayfarers, Enterprises, Squibs, Solings and Salcombe yawls. I learned to windsurf, passed my D.O.T launch drivers licence and became very proficient in all sorts of powered rescue craft. Two years wonderful experience. Inc a week each on Provident and Hoshi.
I then moved to a job working of the beach in Greece, one season in Paxos (Lakka) and one season at a high wind centre. Wind surfers, short boards, Hobie cats, Dart 18s etc.
I then moved to West London to mary Jane who raced a fireball reasonably competitively at Queen Mary Reservoir. I took the job of Chief Instructor at Queen Mary Watersports on the same reservoir.
After five years and a with a Dinghy Coach examiner, Power boat instructor, Windsurfing/Funboard instructor and Catamaran endorsement I had to move on. the 93 recession and a our sons birth and a mortgage to pay.
A beautiful wood decked Wayfarer provided many wonderful family holidays but no regular sailing. A lovely wood Fireball enabled me to race with my son but not as often as I wished then he moved on to Uny
We struck lucky with a non equity share ( four of us shared costs) in a Westerly Fulmar which we cruised extensively on the South coast, west of Gosport, for many years.
Following a life long dream I purchased a Cromarty 36 motorsailer and again cruised extensively, with Jane, along the south coast, across to the Channel Islands and then to France.
That's a very long lead in to the reason to change. I was getting less and less excited by the notion of driving two hours to the coast and going through the long process..... plus Jane had had three minor strokes and her balance and confidence were not as good.......plus my seasickness was worse than any boat I had been on......plus we had a lot of money invested......plus the actual sailing was, dare I say, a bit dull.
So we sold it.
But the the itch remained or so I thought. I was now retired, time and money available and I read extensively on this site and took a shine to the BC20 and one came up and it seemed too good to miss.
Two things happened. Covid and lock down reared their head and at the same time my new sport of Trial bike riding took of and became a big part of my life.
The decision to sell the BC20 was taken suddenly as part of realisation that 'I had done it' and sailing was not exciting me anymore.
I handed in my Coach examiner ticket but currently retain my Instructor ticket...just in case!
So many reasons, not simple. I will probably charter at some point. I hope to go on a few windsurfing holidays in Greece, see if I can still do it after thirty years!
The BC20 was everything I hoped it would be, You the forum were wonderful.
My life moved on.
I hope that provides a decent answer to the original question.
Kind regards
Graham B
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After all these years, I still can’t envisage selling my BR20. I bought it new in 2010 and it’s still going strong. It’s not used as extensively as in the good old days when I used to trail it across Europe. But it’s still being modified, with more electronics than ever and the imminent installation of Bentley boards https://www.swallowyachtsassociation.org/smf/index.php/topic,2800.0.html.
I really like the look of the new BC21 but unless I win the lottery it’s out of reach financially and I still prefer having a boat without a lid. I’ve also considered trading down to a much lighter BR17, which would be easier to manhandle in and out of an awkwardly shaped driveway. The better alternative is to grub out some obstructive hedging on the drive when my wife’s not looking!
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I sold my open SR and BR Raidboats, because I no longer do Sail & Oar raids.
I am selling my BRE, because I no longer plan to sail that around Ireland. -Family, dog, age.
I am also selling my BRE, because for what I do locally, a lot: fishing, whalewatching, pubcrawling, cooking, snoring, I found a better suited and more comfortable old shallow draught keelboat. Which I beefed up with a modern BR rig, to have the best of both worlds. Very happy with that now.
IMO one should sell boats when other people could make better use of them.
Claus Riepe
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Sold my BRe to buy a (used) BC26. Seeking more comfort in my oldish age...
In that respect, a major leap forward, perhaps too much in 26ft? I could live without a porcelain sea toilet (c/w holding tank) and running hot water... at two basins.
Yet it still sails well and has proven competitive in club racing - even sailing single handedly.
We did OK at Mylor Raid 2023 too, mostly against BC23s (no other 26s, but one Coast 250) - but not on handicap, otherwise we would have won almost everything (see my other post re RYA/RORC crazy handicapping of Swallow-style water ballast boats!).
We this year have added both symmetric and asymmetric spinnakers... ;)
Boat lives afloat all season, my nerves (nor my car) wouldn't stand towing it about.
My car struggles with even the MT trailer at (I think?) >1T and almost 30ft long.
Luckily MT trailer storage is "free", and not in my garden!
From what I've seen online, I do like the new BC 21. How much? I've seen no prices.
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I do like the BC 21. How much? I've seen no prices.
According to yacht.de late last year, a basic boat with just sails (no trailer or engine presumably) would be £28k.
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I sold by Storm 17 reluctantly due to decreasing agility and stamina and progressed to an 'easier' BR20. I really miss the Storm which I think is very under rated. She is drier and more comfortable than the BR20 (or at least the epoxy ply version is) and at just over 200kg is easy to handle on land / retrieving etc. She is a delight to sail and a light touch helm quickly tells you if you haven't got something trimmed quite right. We found though that the combination of no water ballast plus no slab reefing (making reefing relatively hard work) was getting to much for us after a couple of hours in a stiff breeze.
I am curently reading Roger Barnes' book on dinghy cruising and wish I had come across his recommendation of how to rig a gunter spar with a track and second halyard to enable much easier reefing before specifying the Bermuda rig of our BR20. Such is life.
Gareth Rowlands
GRP BR20 Halen Y Mor