Swallow Yachts Association
Swallow Yachts Forum => Technical => Topic started by: Anyone can uk on 09 Oct 2022, 19:22
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Bermudan BRE
Was out with a group in really gusty conditions and dropped from reef 2 to mizzen and jib.
The boat feels wrong with no drive: upwind sailing course made good is barely beam to the wind.
My memory of Drascombes in similar conditions sailing jib and mizzen is of a spritly powerful upwind course. Whereas the BRE is dragging to lee and barely making progress.
My working theory is that the little jib out on the bowsprit is too far forward as is the mizzen: its effort is above the rudder rather than aft of it.
Have people experimented with a higher overlap jib or moving the tack aft off the bow sprit for jib and mizzen sailing?
I’ve binned the furler so wondering if I’d prefer a better shaped, longer overlap jib.
Any other suggestions?
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I have sailed singlehanded and ballasted in 6 Bft with choppy swell towards windwards only on the mainsail, reefed to minimal size, and it worked well for me. Good speed, sometimes even planing, and fair upwind progress. May be worth trying.
BR
Peter
BRe nr. 7 Anna
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.... My memory of Drascombes in similar conditions sailing jib and mizzen is of a spritly powerful upwind course. ... Any other suggestions?
I think it's nostalgia. It's a widespread and well researched psychological phenomenon distorting memories towards pleasantness.
;D
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That was my experience of BRe with jib & mizzen too. A fully reefed main was much better. Conversely, I've heard people say the open BR sails well with just jib & mizzen but I've never had the opportunity to try one.
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I’ve managed to get my BR20 to sail to windward under just jib and mizzen in quite high winds but only on Lake Bala https://www.swallowyachtsassociation.org/smf/index.php/topic,427.msg2330.html#msg2330, so no large waves to knock me off course. I would have been using the self-tacking jib set quite far back and without a bowsprit. Other differences to the BRe experience would be less windage from a cabin and I have a gunter rather than Bermudan rig, although I’m not sure that would be significant.
Down or across the wind, jib & jigger works well https://www.swallowyachtsassociation.org/smf/index.php/topic,2219.0.html - no chance of an accidental gybe knocking you about. And of course just jib alone to reduce any risk of broaching to when running before very strong winds.
I’m sure I saw the identically rigged BR20 Gladys making progress to windward under jib & jigger at the very end of one of the Mylor raids (2016) when things got a bit lively, and when I was completely caught out (below).
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Ive not had the OPs issues at all, and have been at sea in some strong winds and heavy swells.
Also dont have fond memories of, or desire to return to my D Lugger in similar conditions. Here I agree strongly with Llafurio!
Why did you "bin" the furler?
In these conditions, i have always been fully ballasted, but often sailing singlehandedly. Sprayhood always down, to reduce windage- and I find it gets in the way.
Generally reefed main, full mk2 jib (pointless trying to furl-reef that) cars full aft.
Full mizzen. I fitted a downhaul cleat to my mizzen which can act as a flattener/cunningham.
Does your main have a good, useable, cunningham?
Have you also tried lifting some centreboard, to balance helm and ease any tendency of the boat to trip over the board, and so stall and then slip sideways. Foils need flow to give lift.
My "best jib", non furling, has a cunningham fitted from loft. Works well to flatten off.
My sails, in similar conditions, are all a lot flatter than GWs in that moist looking photo! How do OPs compare?
Q. How do others reef or furl the mizzen in v strong conditions? I always struggle.
If really over pressed down wind, my plan is now to release the sheets so that the sail weathercocks. Seems safer to me? Especially if singlehanded?
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Lots of great tips to play with.
I have a downhaul fitted on the main.
Brining back the centreboard is an interesting idea I would have thought it would bring the pivot back reducing windward angle but up for trying.
Never considered driving with double reefed main only and no mizzen or jib - on a ketch it’s not the obvious heavy weather sail plan.
I didn’t realise that the self tacking jibs could be set further back - I have a conventional jib on bow sprit
Binned the furler. Always preferred conventional jibs on boats they seem to always be a fail point. This one in particular would frequently fail to deploy fully - requiring a walk to the bows to hand turn. On one of there forays I snagged the line with my foot and broke the lug off. Won’t bother replacing Id rather spend money on a sail with better shape that’s not furler compatable.
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If it was on your boat from new, I bet your furler was a Barton with crunchy ball bearings.
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Since this conversation has already drifted into BR20 territory:
FWIW I recently spent half a day in my EP BR20 (standard gunter rig with self-tacking jib on a furler) sailing back and forth in windy & tidal conditions under jib and mizzen only to try to dump the water ballast. This was my first experience of taking the boat out in anything but balmy conditions and I would not have gone out had the weather not been OK when I set off.
The waves were by no means huge but there were choppy waves on big enough swells and I was the only sailboat out. The boat sailed perfectly adequately on all points in this configuration & weather: not especially fast but not stressed, the whole experience being really quite enjoyable and confidence inspiring, despite the frustration over the speed of emptying of the tanks.
Given this experience and the similarities between the BR and BRE I am surprised that the sailing characteristics of the BRE under jib and mizzen are apparently so different.
PS I now have an electric bilge pump to drop into the ballast tank for emptying!
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Can we all clarify that we are using the same terms of reference for windy conditions. We had Lulls of 15 knots and frequent rainy squalls of 30 knots coming in at 90 degrees to prevailing.
We took the double reefed main down as squalls strikes were at risk of creating a knockdown.
We could lie-to safely through the heavy stuff but in the lulls: trying to make progress Lee helm correction was nearly 30 degrees on the rudder and about 1.5 knots through the water with jib and mizzen only. VMG was about 0.5 Knots.
There should have been ample power to play with but she was really struggling to make way.
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Lee helm correction was nearly 30 degrees on the rudder and about 1.5 knots through the water with jib and mizzen only. VMG was about 0.5 Knots.
There should have been ample power to play with but she was really struggling to make way.
At 30 degrees to direction of travel was it possible that the rudder was stalled and therefore causing significant drag without effective turning moment? The rudder may not stall at 30 degrees but only if the boat is in a turn so that the actual angle of incidence is much less.
On Gladys, my BR20 and other boats with relatively small mizzens I've found it best to think of the mizzen as an aerial rudder that helps trim, and even assist steering the boat, rather than a significant contribution to propulsion. In the conditions described above I would flatten the mizzen as much as possible and then sheet in to take pressure off the helm. This would allow the jib to do its job and provide drive unimpeded by rudder drag. I'd also have my hand on the sheets ready to let go when hit by 30 knot cross squalls!
My BR20 had a jib boom which allowed the jib to be flattened but angle of incidence to the relative wind adjusted independently.
Gladys also had no cabin and therefore less windage. The open cockpit also allowed me to move crew weight forward, which would be unwise if it meant they had to go in the cabin.
Matthew
ex BR20 Gladys
BR17 Tarkia
Northeast[er] dory Hilda
Weird 3-masted sailing 7M long canoe Mystery
Various boats
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Lee helm correction was nearly 30 degrees on the rudder and about 1.5 knots through the water with jib and mizzen only. VMG was about 0.5 Knots.
There should have been ample power to play with but she was really struggling to make way.
Matthew makes good points. 30 degrees of rudder must be quite a brake. I guess one would struggle to make way.
Isn't getting to windward in strong winds a big ask in a little, light boat like a BRe (surely still a light craft even when ballasted)? I sailed recently in Milford Haven in our Expedition beating in what felt like a lot of wind in lumpy conditions. We were under just jib and mizzen and felt a bit over-powered from time to time. We made acceptable progress to windward. Not because of skill on my part: I put it down entirely to the strong, favourable tide (contributing to that lumpiness) - for we were also making a lot of leeway.
John
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Bermudan BRE
Was out with a group in really gusty conditions and dropped from reef 2 to mizzen and jib.
The boat feels wrong with no drive: upwind sailing course made good is barely beam to the wind. ...
Different sailors get different results. My own result is that 30 kts of wind and tacking up with VMG > 2 kts. is no problem for a singlehander
IF:
* ballast tank is full to the rim, and
* the boat has a Gunter rig,
* with two properly done reefs and flattening in, and
* the boat has the self-tacking jib
* with the jib well flattened, and
* the boat has a flattened Mizzen sail
* with the improved sheeting system, and
* centreboard is adjusted for near neutral helm, and
* if the helmsman knows his stuff to keep the speed up rather than squeezing for windward angle.
But, I really cannot speak for boats with the USA (Bermudian) rig. I never use mine. I bought one but found it to be rubbish, introduced for mass-market left handed US customers who do not know sh... about Gunter rig handling, and which is a treachery to the "Raid" ethos, part of which is unstepping and stepping the rig in a jiffy for rowing stretches and for shooting bridges.
While I cannot find fault with the heavy weather sailing performance of my BRs, I must admit that sailing a BR or BRE in heavy conditions -with the ballast tank full- is a very wet affair. That is not so nice, but the rest is OK, and much better than what I had with my Drascombes (5), except for the Drifter.
Claus Riepe
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unstepping and stepping the rig in a jiffy..for shooting bridges.
There really is no end to the BR’s versatility.
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Fair enough. The conditions I referred to are : 6 Bft steady easterly winds on the Markermeer lake in the Netherlands. This lake is an old sea arm and shallow (3 to 4 m ) and renowned for its steep short waves at Bft 4 plus. No tides. I had flattened the mainsail as much as I could. I have a background in dinghy racing and sail the BRe as a big dingy, i.e. with minimum heel and max speed. I think i may raised the centreboard a bit for balance.
Peter
Can we all clarify that we are using the same terms of reference for windy conditions. We had Lulls of 15 knots and frequent rainy squalls of 30 knots coming in at 90 degrees to prevailing.
We took the double reefed main down as squalls strikes were at risk of creating a knockdown.
We could lie-to safely through the heavy stuff but in the lulls: trying to make progress Lee helm correction was nearly 30 degrees on the rudder and about 1.5 knots through the water with jib and mizzen only. VMG was about 0.5 Knots.
There should have been ample power to play with but she was really struggling to make way.
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Note, I once sailed a rented Drascombe Coaster for a week and found its windwards performance unimpressive. Which is the main reason I bought a BRe.
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Allow me to put on rose-tinted glasses.
30 years ago I owned a Drascombe Coaster that I regularly sailed on Ullswater with four adults and two young children. We would launch at Waterside Farm (near the Sailing Club) usually tacking stately into wind for a few hours to Patterdale for an ice cream before sweeping back before the wind with the centre board up and all sails held out with oars. Sometimes Ullswater's notorious squalls would blast other small sailboats off the lake while we calmly reefed and proceeded under just mizzen and jib. I admit that in blustery conditions we might resort to the vile smelly noisy Seagull if we needed to get home into quickly wind.
I always thought of my Drascombe as the boat equivalent of a Landrover. Not fast, not fancy but rugged and able to go anywhere. My BR20 Gladys and BR17 Tarika have proven worthy and better performing successors.
Happy days.
Matthew
BR17 Tarika
Fyne Boats Northeast[er]
ex BR20 Gladys
Various other boats
ex- Drascombe Coaster Dandy (now called Hope Bay and based in Oslo)
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While we’re in reminiscence mode, I once owned an original Bill Bailiff Lune Whammel, built like a brick outhouse. I was impressed by the windward performance of Drascombe Luggers when I saw them out on Lake Bala, compared to my own crab-like progress against the wind. Downwind with its balanced lugsail, the Whammel went like a train. I seriously considered swapping it for a Drascombe and then, thank goodness, I came to my senses when I heard about BayRaiders.
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This Youtube shows BR20s (and a BRe20) under mizzens and jibs on a reach.
https://youtu.be/fW9WB5spg1s
Matthew
BR17 Tarika
ex BR20 Gladys
etc
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Reaching back and forth as in the video - no problem at all but then a square rigged canoe can reach.
As for lune whammels I teach in them fairly regularly and totally agree they are much work to progress upwind. I keep extolling the virtues of BR as a better experience for the clients.
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The Whammel’s leeway had to be seen to be believed. The BayRaider’s water ballast is also a bit of an improvement over my Whammel’s sacks of gravel under the cockpit sole. Old school!
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I remember being in a similar predicament (2 or 3 others on this thread) beating around the north east coast of Rum towards Canna. We have the same Bermudan rig as the OP but with furling jib. We had the main down, full mizzen and the Jib until over pressed. We tried furling the jib but it didn’t furl completely. We progressed pretty well to windward although it wasn’t much fun. I remember thinking that the mizzen was doing most of the work but was in much need of flattening which I have pondered long on how to achieve. I am interested to try a double reefed main, without the mizzen or jib next time.
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Fit a downhaul/cunningham/flattner to the mizzen, which is easy enough.
Perhaps, also to the jib, if non roller furling?
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Fit a downhaul/cunningham/flattner to the mizzen, which is easy enough.
Perhaps, also to the jib, if non roller furling?
I’m intrigued by this. We have a carbon mizzen with the sail sleeved over it and a down haul made tight and fast. With the sprit boom, I’m intrigued as to how you get a Cunningham on that?
I suppose checking the downhaul is tight before setting out and making sure the outhaul is as tight as possible but once you’ve got a healthy bend in the mast, can BRE mizzen be effectively flattened?
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Hyde mizzens are cut on the full side, which makes flattening them more difficult than with the old Dolphins, the original sailmaker when BR’s were first introduced. I tried to source a mizzen with a flatter cut from Hyde but was rebuffed. I expect an artisanal local sailmaker could probably sort something out.
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As GW says...recut flatter, by local sailmaker, cash, in quiet times?
I fitted a clam cleat to my mizzen downhaul, which was then usable as a cunningham. Beware if your mizzen mast has no internal plug fitted; mine has.
Presumably, your outhaul is adjustable while sailing? It needs to be.
Also, if free/leeward sheet is hardened in too, once windward sheeted in, It acts as a downhaul/flattener. This assuming that boom is rigged "sprit style", part way up the luff. You'll need better blocks than the standard seasure crap...IMHO.
At least one boat (not me) has experimented with short strops on the aft most mizzen sheet blocks, so as to improve sheeting angles.
Have a look at Salcombe Yawl sites, they are VERY competitive (money no object) racing dinghies. Beautiful things...
Some seem to have battened mizzen, stays on mizzen masts...
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Here are posts describing two tweaks to mizzen rigging that may be worth considering:
Reversing the standard mizzen outhaul https://www.swallowyachtsassociation.org/smf/index.php/topic,1216.0.html
Modification to standard sheeting arrangements, originally proposed by Claus https://www.swallowyachtsassociation.org/?page_id=790 (towards the bottom)
I use a windward mizzen mast stay/staysail halyard when flying my mizzen staysail but that’s a whole different matter.
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I have been very happy with windward performance of my BR20s under jib and jigger in gusts up to 38 knots singlehanding in relatively protected water; Start Bay in Devon and Tomales Bay in California. Certainly I always had full ballast in at that point. In flatter water the wood chine version points better but perhaps the extra weight of the GRP boat helps though chop.
Sailing for speed initially then helps with pointing. I don’t think this rig arrangement will ever point quite as well as with a fully reefs and flattened main as well. In gusts of up to 25/30 I have found that using the main and spilling in the gusts was very effective but jamming the mainsheet is not an option.
In ballasted boats in general in heavy air, I have always found a slight lift of the board to allow the boat to slide sideways a bit in the gusts makes for a more comfortable ride, assuming you have the sea room to leeward.
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I’ve been playing with the configuration of sails on my BR20 and have read this thread with interest. Most of my sailing in the BR20 has been singlehanded. As I was familiar with just one mast, my initial forays were just a mainsail (Bermudan)with one reef and jib. With 0- 10kt winds, this worked out ok but the jib on the bowsprit tended to keep the boat turning after a tack. This was probably because there was very little boat speed in the turn. The turning effect was not seen if I also used the mizzen to balance things up.
Yesterday I was being passed by every other boat on the lake and wondered what I should be doing to speed things up. The conditions were force 3 with substantial gusts to force 5/6. My best speeds were with full jib, mizzen and main. The main was at the first reef. I didn’t use full main to avoid being blown over in the gusts.
I suspect that my jib tension was not correct. Is there a rule of thumb about this? My old Wayfarer just had a lever that set the tension for me.
How can I go faster than the club member with the Hawk 20?
So far I have never used, or felt the need to use, the 300kg water ballast.
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How can I go faster than the club member with the Hawk 20?
So far I have never used, or felt the need to use, the 300kg water ballast.
In my BRe at-sea related experience, a well sailed Hawk 20, in mixed fleet club racing, is untouchable.
They are rated some 37 RYA YTC points faster, even under white sail.
However they also have a Spiro symmetrical (24m2) auto spinnaker pole launch system, which makes them devastingly fast directly down wind, especially when their spinni is set within 2 boat lengths of the mark!
"Sailing the angles" with our assyms (11m2?) is all very well, but things like coast/rocks/competitors/anglers etc seem to conspire to get in the way more often than not....and then there is differing tidal skews, when on radically different courses...but then I'm certainly not the best asymmetric sailor!
So, pray for a " tight reachy" course ;)
I won't reignite the RYA YTC v Swallow water ballast rating fiasco (imho...) especially as I no longer have any W ballast.
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Hyde mizzens are cut on the full side, which makes flattening them more difficult than with the old Dolphins, the original sailmaker when BR’s were first introduced. I tried to source a mizzen with a flatter cut from Hyde but was rebuffed. I expect an artisanal local sailmaker could probably sort something out.
I had an interesting conversation with a sailmaker this morning, when I dropped my sails off for some tlc.
I was complaining about my mizzen and how the current Hyde version wasn't cut nearly as flat as its predecessor, made by Dolphin Sails. He said that Hyde were notorious for being unable to make flat sails, even for racing boats. Boats with a relatively narrow beam should be able to point quite well but if the sails are too full, this detracts from their potential. SeaRaider 'Craic' looks like it has Dolphins rather than Hydes, which must partly explain its extraordinary performance upwind.
I've asked my sailmaker the dreaded question of how long does he think my somewhat UV-bleached tan sails have left in them, which he'll report back on in a couple of months. If I win the lottery, I may have to order a new set in due course and I was wondering whether there are viable alternatives to Hyde out there? Their gunter-rigged sails are robust and have lasted quite well since about 2013.
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A very interesting comment about Hyde. Our sails are by them and nicely made, but beating with the mizzen is the nautical equivalent of being followed around by an embarrassing relative; the jib and main set well whilst the mizzen just won't behave in public. It luffs just a bit too early, all the time. I had put it down to poor helmsmanship, but a fuller sail cut may well be contributing too.
Our outhaul is the original sort, with a rope passing through the boom. Friction renders it non-functional, so I'll be following your guide to making a snotter in the hope that pushing the sail out another couple of centimetres might help.
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Full Hyde sails.
Comments above certainly tallies with my experiences.
Difficult to reconcile with the title of the OP ;)
One of which was a one-design racing dinghy (I had 5 over the years all but one new), sails from boat builders only. Over those years Hyde cycled thru as the "selected suppliers". They didn't last long before builder changed sailmakers again (citing "inconsistency", I seem to recall?). However, this limited number of well made, yet fuller cut Hyde sails are now sought after by some very capable helms for use in certain conditions where it is clear they offer a significant advantage (but are, of course, still class legal)...more power/drive.
Was not at all impressed with my BRe Hyde jib, almost new and barely used. Very full, impossible to flatten and just set badly.
I got a new semi-battened (non furling) race jib made by a local guy, who is now a sailmaker on the NZ Americas Cup team and so is currently unavailable. Sorry GW! Once he gets back, I worry he'll be unaffordable!
3 battens, full length at top. Leech n foot tension lines, dyneema luff rope (not wire) with downhauler/jib cunningham. About 15% larger than standard, to max fore triangle dimensions. It needed towable jib sheet cars really...but not too onerous to move cars on a BRe. Drill a few more pin stop positions too.
This sail transformed the boat upwind, but a bit of a pita to rig/remove. I generally used to go alongside a pontoon to remove the Hyde and furler, then rig the race sail. This sail was sold with the boat.
Main was acceptable, but see below re crappy battens.
I'd planned to go for a similar new "race" BRe mizzen (as per Salcombe Yawl), but boat sold.
My original BC 26 Hyde furler jib is surprisingly good. Just now needing repairs to UV strips.
Main v much less so. Until I saw the 2013 sea trials pics, I thought it was probably just age/use/iffy storage at almost 10 yo. Battens APPALLING "contract" rubbish, same as those on BRe. Barely capable of supporting this larger sail section/cloth weight.
However, even from pics at build, this main never looked good to me.
New main (sailmaker, see above) v v much better, also with tapered epoxy battens. Not cheap but money well spent, so I tell my wife...
I've been after the same sailmaker for an asymmetric (and ideally a code 0) as I can't find/afford similar product quality and top rate service from the alternatives hereabouts.
No chance!
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MarkF.
Have you rigged a cunningham on your mizzen?
Really helped me, although I also used the boom sprit-style to try to give some cunningham effect.
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I've just had a new jib made by Exe sails, it was cut flat so that it would furl nicely on an Aero luff spar. It has so significantly improved performance compared to it's very full cut Dolphin predecessor, that I am going to get new main and mizzen made this winter.
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A very interesting comment about Hyde. Our sails are by them and nicely made, but beating with the mizzen is the nautical equivalent of being followed around by an embarrassing relative
Nicely put!
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The original Dolphin mizzen sail on ‘CraiC’ and Hyde mizzen sail on ‘Apus’ both utilise the downward angle of the mizzen boom to allow the lower triangle of sail to act as its own kicking strap to maintain leech tension.
In addition the single line downhaul and inhaul oppose the action of the outhaul to allow optimal control of sail shape. By inducing mizzen mast bend the mizzen sail may be flattened or allowed to relax to allow maximum curvature to suit the conditions or point of sailing.
Subtle differences in how the control lines are taut (sic taught) can improve the discipline of this poor relation. See photo and diagram attached.
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MarkF.
Have you rigged a cunningham on your mizzen?
Really helped me, although I also used the boom sprit-style to try to give some cunningham effect.
Thank you for the suggestion. No, I haven't but will look into doing so. I wonder if I need to pay some attention to the lashing on the tack - it's perhaps not tight enough.
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In addition the single line downhaul and inhaul oppose the action of the outhaul to allow optimal control of sail shape. By inducing mizzen mast bend the mizzen sail may be flattened or allowed to relax to allow maximum curvature to suit the conditions or point of sailing.
Another really helpful suggestion. Am I right in thinking you use a 'normal' outhaul (not a 'snotter')? I wasn't sure how you get the pre-bend in the mast; is this just by sail tension?
As for the inboard end of the mizzen boom, it looks from your diagram as though the downhaul is the usual lashing to the eye and you take an inhaul around the mast and cleat it off. Is that right?
I was wondering if a similar result could be achieved by tying off the inhaul and downhaul to keep the tack tightly in place and using a snooter push out the mizzen boom to shape the sail? I suspect I'll need to just try it to find out, but lots of helpful ideas from everyone so there's hope for my untamed family yet!
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See also this https://www.swallowyachtsassociation.org/smf/index.php/topic,198.msg770.html#msg770 and this https://www.swallowyachtsassociation.org/smf/index.php/topic,198.msg775.html#msg775 from 2009!