Swallow Yachts Association
Swallow Yachts Forum => Technical => Topic started by: Andy Dingle on 30 Mar 2013, 13:03
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OK.. confession time! Since I got my Bayraider 20 back in 2009 I have never flown my spinnaker.
Now, I know the wind has rarely dropped below 35 knots since then, neither has it stopped raining or latterly snowing, but the situation is beginning to embarrass me!
Whilst helping (hindering) Peter Cockerton with his plans of rigging a furling spinnaker on his BR my thoughts kept going back to my own neglected spinnaker, safely tucked away in my garage.
After comments from 'er in doors that sailing is 'boring' and 'why can't we have one of those' as she points to a fleet of 29ers in splendid full flight, brightly coloured spinnakers straining and fit young kids hanging on for dear life.. It's time to do something about my inexperience.
I originally ordered the spinnaker kit and fittings suspecting that this day would eventually come and I am glad I did.
Now, my own BR is the wood EP model with a beautifully made spinnaker launching bag built into the starboard side of my lovely mahogany planked foredeck - which so far has only been used to store trailing halyards whilst sailing!
I write with my spinnaker draped over my sitting room as I study the tack, clew, head and launch/retrieval system. To be honest I have little or no clue on what I am doing with it. The manual seems to be less than completely informative and appears to be geared towards the GRP BR. So am turning to the wealth of information out there in Swallow Boat world for help.
I would be very grateful for any advice on rigging, launching/retrieving and sailing with the beast on my particular boat. Particulary the rigging of the retrieval system through the rings and webbing strops on the rear of the spin?
I have all the bits (I think) CF pole (in two parts) blocks and lots of string.
I am sure there must be other owners in the same predicament as me and if anyone with sufficient knowledge could help us all out I would be very grateful?
Maybe an article to supplement the manual and go into the Association Library?
Regards
Andy and a partially naked BR20 'Psalter'
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I have the BRe with an asymmetric so it may be different but it is a pain that there's no clear diagram or photo's. The best thing is to rig it when on dry land without much wind. Then practice pulling it from one side to the other, that way you will realise if one of your ropes is of insufficient length, far less embarrassing on dry land. You'll also be able to see that all the rigging is outside of everything else, again far more fixable when you can jump out and re rig, not quite so easy at sea.
Good luck, it certainly makes sailing more fun.
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I couldn't agree more about first rigging the beast on dry land in very light winds and preferably somewhere that will not attract an audience. It sounds like my setup is quite different to yours so all I can do is wish you good luck!
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Thanks for the replies so far.
Seems I'm going to have to experiment with it. If we get some light winds tomorrow I'm going to have a go at launching it on my drive.
The consensus of opinion so far is to use a snuffer/sock system which does seem quite sensible and fairly simple, has anyone else tried this system?
I think the tack will also need to be adjustable ie lengthening it as you go further downwind and vice versa? What merits are there in having such a long 'bow sprit' or could it be launched - with an adjustable tack - directly off the bow forward of the jib furler?
I'll have a play and see what I can sort out..
By the way Graham - I have today rigged a 'double' topping lift which I'll try out this weekend. Looks a good idea though. Thanks
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I have used a snuffer with a cruising chute on a Moody 35. It made bringing the sail down quite easy without depowering the sail. Provided the helmsman kept the boat steady, the man at the mast could pull the down the snuffer over the sail and slowly deflate it. Once fully down, the whole lot could be lowered to the deck, folded up and put away. We discovered by bitter experience that the snuffer wouldn't work when we had mismanaged the sail into an hour glass......
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I have two pieces of equipment that I have never managed to get to work properly on my BR20 - one is a Scullmatix sculling oar installation on the stern and the other is a spinnaker snuffer, which always seemed to get stuck or in a tangle whenever I used it (which I no longer do). I think an adjustable tack line is the answer to unmanageable spinnaker misery - it makes it much easier to set the spinnaker flying and also to depower it prior to bringing it back on board without the sail falling into the water. When this line is not in use, the tack end can be let go far enough to be brought aft and clipped on to a shroud. I have mine feeding through the middle of the spinnaker pole to a clamcleat on top of the centreboard case.
One of these days, I am going to try an environmentally-unfriendly spinnaker tip that I read about somewhere or other: take a small bucket from which the bottom has been carefully removed, so that there are no sharp edges; stretch several long thin rubber bands over and around the bucket; feed the spinnaker through the middle of said bucket, rolling off a rubber band onto the sail every now and then and removing the bucket when finished. You then have a long thin spinnaker sausage that can be hoisted without filling with wind. As soon as the head and tack are suitably tensioned, pull hard on the lee spinnaker sheet and the rubber bands should all break and the spinnaker will unfurl. The broken rubber bands presumably fall into the sea, where they are ready to choke an unsuspecting mackerel.
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Well, I've got my spinnaker bagged nicely in its launching bag on my foredeck. I've surmised that the launching halyard should go up to the hounds back down into the cockpit, under the foredeck into the launching bag, fed through the tabbed rings and finally secured to the central tab on the inside of my spinnaker. Theoretically (!) I can now hoist it and it should pull out of the bag, and retrieve it all back into the bag by pulling one way or t'other on the halyhard. Sheets from clew fed outside of everything and back to the rowlocks port and starboard and fed through the blocks on soft shackles (I like the idea of ratchet blocks Graham).
I agree that an adjustable tack is necessary and I stood staring at my extended pole pondering how best to do this, I did think it would be ideal to feed it through the spinnaker pole and am glad to see this has already been done, my spinnaker pole is stopped with a wooden bung at the end with just a ring screwed into it - how did you get yours through the pole Graham? Did you drill a hole further up the pole? If so does this weaken the carbon fibre? In the meantime I intend just to feed it over the foredeck, fitting a block on the end of the spinnaker pole.
I've fitted my bobstay and tensioned it so that the pole shouldn't flex upwards too much - (is that right?) so all now looks fine and dandy and in theory should work! Unfortunately it's been blowing 5's gusting 6's all day so a trial is going to have to wait.
Based on your feedback I may bin the snuffer idea!
I've got a posty who does that too Graham, chucks his used rubber bands all over the place!
Andy
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I agree that an adjustable tack is necessary and I stood staring at my extended pole pondering how best to do this, I did think it would be ideal to feed it through the spinnaker pole and am glad to see this has already been done, my spinnaker pole is stopped with a wooden bung at the end with just a ring screwed into it - how did you get yours through the pole Graham? Did you drill a hole further up the pole? If so does this weaken the carbon fibre?
I've fitted my bobstay and tensioned it so that the pole shouldn't flex upwards too much - (is that right?) so all now looks fine and dandy and in theory should work!
Andy,
I removed the existing wooden bung and replaced it with a new one with a deck bush installed through the middle. You may find that your carbon pole has foam inserts which need to be drilled through or removed.
For the bobstay, I screwed a small lacing eye lengthways on top of the pole, so that the bobstay could be looped (or spliced) through it, pulling down from around the top. And yes, the pole needs to be tensioned downwards with the bobstay. Some people say that it should be slightly over-tensioned.
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Please could someone who knows about spinnakers on the BR20 please give me (and others) a description and diagram of all the rigging needed to set up a spinnaker. I have a BR20 that has no spinnaker rig at all. I dont have a spinnaker halyard and I see that this is often referred to for a forestay, extra headsail etc. So how is the halyard attached top and bottom? How do you ensure it does not get caught up when the jib is furled? where do you keep the spinnaker and how do you launch it? Where are the sheets attached? Do you have separate sheets or a continuous loop?
When this is described this could be in the library because it is not set out in the handbook.
Many thanks
I suggest
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Colin,
Have you seen page 18 of this version of the manual? http://www.swallowyachtsassociation.org/?page_id=251. Page 12 shows the standard fiddle block at the masthead for those with spinnakers installed by the yard. The spinnaker halyard (attached to the head of the spinnaker) goes through the lower sheave of this (somewhat illogically) and then down to a horn cleat on the starboard side of the mast, near the tabernacle.
That's the standard set-up but if starting from scratch, I would specify a double (side by side) block at the masthead, a separate fixed bobstay with adjustable tack line, plus auto ratchet blocks (Andrew Denman picture below) instead of standard blocks for the sheets.
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Thanks Graham.
Please can I ask for some clarification.
1. I thought there was a problem with double sided blocks, if both sheaves were not under similar pressure it would twist. Is that a real problem?
2. I am not sure what you mean by a separate bobstay. Is this a separate forestay? If so how to you stop it getting tangled up when the jib is furling?
3. What is an adjustable tack line? I cant even imagine what that is?
Many many thanks. Trying to get the boat set up now the sun is shining
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1. I thought there was a problem with double sided blocks, if both sheaves were not under similar pressure it would twist. Is that a real problem?
I haven't noticed this with my double block. However, I use two blocks (a double on top and a single down below) at the head of the jib, to give myself some mechanical advantage when raising and lowering the mast. The top block has a central becket (attachment point) which takes most of the strain from the jib head end of the halyard and probably explains why twist isn't a problem on my rig. See photo below.
2. I am not sure what you mean by a separate bobstay. Is this a separate forestay? If so how to you stop it getting tangled up when the jib is furling?
3. What is an adjustable tack line? I cant even imagine what that is?
A bobstay is the line that stops the spinnaker pole from bending upwards under tension from the spinnaker. The tack line pulls in the opposite direction and restrains the front corner (tack) of the spinnaker - see the attached sketches. I have used separate colours for separate pieces of string. On the standard version, the combined bobstay/tack line is only fixed to the boat at the towing eye near the waterline and passes through a hole or eye in the spinnaker pole up to the spinnaker tack. It can only be tensioned by extending the pole out of its tube, as stated in the boat manual.
In the alternative version, the bobstay is fixed to both the towing eye and the end of the spinnaker pole; the tack line is independent of this and can be brought back inside the boat where it can be separately tensioned. The tack line can be let go when bringing the spinnaker back inboard - this means that the sail shoots up into the air before retrieval instead of falling down into the water, which is what tended to happen with my standard version. It also provides a second way of depowering the spinnaker in a squall (in addition to letting go the sheets). With a bit of ingenuity, the adjustable tack line can be fed through the middle of the spinnaker pole to the cockpit where it is closer to hand.
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Thank you very much Graham. This has been very helpful. When I saw your pictures I "remembered" what a bobstay is. I have flown spinnakers on dinghys and yachts so have some experience of them but never had a boat with a bobstay. I really enjoy my BR20 without a spinnaker but the time has now come to think about fixing one - mainly to keep the younger members of the crew happy.
One comment on the double topping lift. Today I have been converting my single topping lift to a double one. These were the things I found that might be of use to others:
1) I bought 15m of line thinking it would be more than enough. In fact it is only just enough.
2) I put the topping lift on the boom and then placed the yard into it only to find, when I pulled up the yard, that the topping lift was twisted. So make sure the two lines are on the right sides - ah so many things to think about!
3) When I came to stow the combined gaff and boom I unclipped the topping lift from the boom then I found a problem - I could only take the topping lift off by either taking it right to the end of the yard or freeing the yard and moving it well onto the foredeck. If the topping lift is to be taken over the peak of the yard it needs to be about 3 m longer.
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Colin's comments about the topping lift had me smiling wryly, and also sympathetically, because I had, and have, similar 'problems' with the double topping lift on Cavatina: albeit worth living with and overcoming because the double TL is such an improvement for sailing and, with my JR, reefing. Perhaps my setup is different in that the TL passes under the boom about 40 cm inboard from the clew in order to contain the bundle of sail plus batten(s) when reefing. Difficult to describe and I don't know whether Colin and others can follow, but when unstepping I have to lift the mast out and lower the heel towards the stern in such a way that it passes between the two lifts; and ditto when stepping. Otherwise, as Colin says, the TL is twisted and for me it's a major exercise to sort it out. Practice makes perfect - I hope.
I also strongly identified with Colin's '15 metres is just enough' experience. Having completely re-rigged one boat and rigged another from scratch, I quickly discovered that estimating the needed length of a rope a metre too short probably makes the whole thing useless, which becomes expensive. So one errs on the generous side, which is fine but can add up cost-wise as well, particularly for things like halyards and sheets. I now have a whole boxful of 2 - 3 metre lengths of allsortsofrope which I still hope may somehow, someday be just what I need for some as yet unidentified domestic/gardening/equine use (even my wife's gee-gee hasn't been much help in this regard). It's a sort of maritime Murphy's Law, which I think should have an appropriate name, but I can't think of one. Answers on a postcard.....?
Perhaps Tony can help. He likes string.
Michael (Cavatina)
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Tried out the spinnaker out on my BR20 at Rutland this weekend in light winds and it worked fine. Thanks to Brian Robertson post on continuous line furlers thats what i put on my boat. I did use the cheaper RWO furler drum and made up some of my own blocks for the drum line but in those conditions it furled reasonably quickly if not evenly but with careful clew line control i think that could be improved on.
Not wishing to air my stupidity but i had to make my own blocks because i spliced my furl line without thinking of the blocks i would need in circuit so don,t make that mistake.
Peter
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Apropos my previous post, and with apologies for ongoing facetiousness - I can imagine how deadly serious trying to get spinnakers to work must be -, I have come up with a name for the phenomenon I described. Of course it's String Theory: a rope is either too short or too long, and either way it costs you. As far as quantum mechanics and relativity are concerned, it's quantum because you need to measure how much; it's (vaguely) mechanical - blocks, sheaves and such; and the extra expense is relative to the cost of having a boat in the first place. QED.
Everyone probably knows the definition of a wooden boat - a hole in the water, lined with planks (or marine ply?), into which the owner has to keep pouring money.
Michael
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All this talk of extraneous bits of string reminded me of that old Monty Python sketch re 'Simpson's Individual Stringettes' with John Cleese speaking the part of Adrian Wapcaplett - who can sell anything... Remember it? You may if you were a schoolboy in the late 60's early 70's. No? Here is a link..
http://www.skeptictank.org/files/en001/monty16.htm
Anyway. Asymmetric Spinnakers. I've been playing and problem solving. I've managed to launch, sail and recover the black beast this past weekend with some limited success - there is a picture in the gallery of it in full flight (Rutland Water gathering).
I've taken a photograph of my set up with the launching 'hole' in the starboard side of my foredeck (BR20 Wood Epoxy). I imagined the principle would be to attach head, tack and clew, stuff the sail into the bag with a recovery rope attached to the tabs on the sail (another photo attached). I am using an adjustable tack, again photo attached.
The idea would be to launch the spinnaker, have an enjoyable sail then all could be recovered with one tug on the recovery line.
Not so. Easy enough to launch, downwind with the wind on the port quarter. The problem with recovery is the hole and bag are really too small for the spinnaker, also the dead eye to feed the recovery line through was screwed in directly below the hole with just a foot or so between them, consequently, when attempting to recover the spinnaker it fed back in by only a foot or so then stopped!. (Has to be said, a pretty poor design and clearly untried).
I resolved this by cutting out the foot of the bag and renoving the recovery line dead eye. I initially tried recovery by hauling in the line attached to the 'tabs' at the rear of the sail, this worked but bunched the sail so badly it was a struggle to get it all back through the hole. I've now dispensed with using these 'tabs' on the sail altogether and just fixed the recovery line to the clew (with the sheets). I can now haul it all in in a longer thinner 'sausage' which feeds in rapidly and smoothly, stuffing it in the space under the foredeck (the sheets are long enough to stay on either side of the boat).
Conversely launching is now pretty easy too, using the up haul to get the beast out of it's lair, then as the wind takes it, haul in the tack line and trim off with the sheets. Job's a good 'un!
I also learned the hard way that it can only be launched and recovered on port tack (obvious if you stop and think about it!). Also it is important to ensure that any parts of the sail or sheets do not protrude from the hole when stowed else they will foul the jib club boom
I'm pleased with my efforts so far. I was touching 6 knots this weekend in some pretty light winds so it has been worth the effort. I will now sail with the spinnaker ready to be deployed by my willing crew... and am now turning my attentions to rigging a furlable flying jib - or maybe something bigger ... Genoa!?
I hope this input will be useful to someone and I would be very interested to hear from anyone else who has the same launching/recovery system that I had installed by the yard, and what they have done to resolve the problems they would definitely have encountered?
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I think the launch hole in the foredeck is specific to wooden BR's - I've never seen one in a GRP version.
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Thanks for the Monty Python link, Andy. I didn't know it. Great stuff!!
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I have never seen another asymmetric spinnaker launching system like mine on any other Bayraider? Wood or GRP. I'd be interested to know if any one else has this? My BR is quite early, No.12, when the GRP option was just a gleam in Matt's eye, so maybe this is unique to me and Matt changed the design after mine. Anyway I seem to have got it sorted now and am pleased. It now works quite effectively and the spinnaker can reside quite happily, and out of the way, under the foredeck, so I think it is, after all, quite beneficial.
How do GRP Bayraiders launch their Spinnakers? Is it just from a bag in the cockpit? The only one I have seen is Peter Cockerton's and he has now rigged his, quite successfully, as a furling system.
Graham. I have seen in the library your input re a flying jib which I thought was very interesting and am keen to explore this further. I see you say your flying jib is 3 square metres? Is there any reasoning behind this size? I wonder if there is any reason why we couldn't increase the size? I realise then it would not, strictly speaking, be a flying jib.
I'm going to speak with my sail maker next week and want to give a faint impression that I know what I am talking about when I ask him to price me up a sail. The luff could be as much as 4 metres I reckon? Do you use a wire 'boltrope' - similar to the standard jib so the furlers would work easier?
I would lead the new jib sheets back to the rowlocks (a firm mounting point) then through a cam cleat.
Sorry for yet another stitherum!
Andy
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I have never seen another asymmetric spinnaker launching system like mine on any other Bayraider? Wood or GRP. I'd be interested to know if any one else has this? My BR is quite early, No.12, when the GRP option was just a gleam in Matt's eye, so maybe this is unique to me and Matt changed the design after mine. Anyway I seem to have got it sorted now and am pleased. It now works quite effectively and the spinnaker can reside quite happily, and out of the way, under the foredeck, so I think it is, after all, quite beneficial.
Here (below) is a picture of another BayRaider with the foredeck launch hole – Matt in France, sailing what I think must have been BR20 number 1.
How do GRP Bayraiders launch their Spinnakers? Is it just from a bag in the cockpit? The only one I have seen is Peter Cockerton's and he has now rigged his, quite successfully, as a furling system.
I launch my spinnaker from the bag, having made sure that when I have previously stowed it away, the belly of the sail goes in first so that the tack, clew and head are all at the top, ready to be attached to their lines. I use detachable sheets (with a hook in the middle) so that I can set the sheets up outside of everything while still ashore, rather than clambering around on the foredeck with them already attached to the sail. When I’m ready to hoist, out goes the spinnaker pole, the sheets are hooked to the clew, the head is hoisted up on the halyard and then the adjustable tack line is hauled in and tensioned. Bringing the spinnaker in is the reverse of this process, using the lee sheet to haul the sail inboard.
Graham. I have seen in the library your input re a flying jib which I thought was very interesting and am keen to explore this further. I see you say your flying jib is 3 square metres? Is there any reasoning behind this size? I wonder if there is any reason why we couldn't increase the size? I realise then it would not, strictly speaking, be a flying jib.
I'm going to speak with my sail maker next week and want to give a faint impression that I know what I am talking about when I ask him to price me up a sail. The luff could be as much as 4 metres I reckon? Do you use a wire 'boltrope' - similar to the standard jib so the furlers would work easier?
I would lead the new jib sheets back to the rowlocks (a firm mounting point) then through a cam cleat.
My flying jib was designed by Matt based on the photo of the Drascombe below. I haven’t measured the thing but I’m sure he could supply you with its dimensions. The size is dictated by the fact that it is flown in addition to the jib, not instead of it. There’s a whole thread on the subject here http://www.swallowyachtsassociation.org/smf/index.php/topic,459.0.html
To keep the cost down, it has no luff wire and eyes in each corner, just like the spinnaker. I reckon it adds up to a knot to my boat speed in light conditions and works from about 60 degrees apparent back to a broad reach.
Given the forces generated when sailing to windward, I don’t think I would want anything much bigger flying from my spinnaker pole, even when braced with bowsprit shrouds as well as a bobstay. But if you have a solid plank bowsprit, that’s a different matter….
The only photos that I have of it in action are taken onboard, so don’t really show it in its full glory. Here (below) is the best of the bunch.
Sorry for yet another stitherum!
I had to look that one up!
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Many thanks for your reply and advice Graham.
I hadn't considered the lateral forces that a larger flying jib would create I must admit, although I had been thinking of toying with a 'plank' bowsprit or even extending the club jib boom...
But as I'm keen on keeping things as simple as possible so I think I will stick to your (or Matt's?) original idea's. The combined forces of the standard jib with a flying jib should satisfy me, and of course I always have my new found faith in my asymmetric to fall back on!
And I think the flying jib looks pretty damn splendid too!
I'll speak to the sailmaker and show the pictures to him and see what he says, I'm actually taking my BR up to him as he is also measuring me up for a shiny new cover so we can measure up the new jib too.
Kind Regards
Andy
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Graham
Been reading your post on the "More BR20 Mods" where you detail the foredeck stiffener, the new Thwart, and the bringing of spinnaker lines back to the cockpit via the inside of the pole.
Having flown the spinnaker more this season and having problems with the continuous furler I installed (uneven furling when the wind gets up and the sail unfurling from the top down) I have been flying it with a loose tack and pulling it all back into the boat and stuffing it under the foredeck until I want to fly it again. As the halyard, tack and clew sheets are all still attached flying it again after is fairly straight forward.
The reason I’m raising this post is to ask how successful the foredeck stiffener has been as I want to route the loose tack line through the pole and also a tensioner line for the bobstay. I have followed the instructions on tensioning the bobstay in the manual however I still seem to be getting considerable bend in the pole when the spinnaker is really pulling and as such the pole bends up and the spinnaker leech tension slackens, so I’m thinking of putting in a couple of blocks in the bobstay and feeding the line back in to the cockpit via the inside of the pole. If you have found the stiffener worthwhile I will remove the cockpit foredeck infill and put in the triangle and feed the lines as you have done via the stiffener. As I said before I’m not sure what the effects of the slack leeward shroud are/is but the infill makes it difficult to access the storage area anyway so that shouldn't be too much of a loss and my lines would have a nice routing portal. Will attempt to make a thwart as you have described as well to provide a securing point for the lines and line tidy for other bits of string.
Peter Cockerton
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Hi Peter,
Modifications and improvements are a continuous process! I am not convinced that the triangular foredeck stiffener makes much difference but I still use it as it helps keep stuff dry at the forward end of the space under the foredeck and as you mention, is also useful for keeping the spinnaker tack line under control.
I have now abandoned my spinnaker pole in favour of a long plank bowsprit and have also given up as too heavy and complicated the forward rowing bench with pegs.
The bending problem with your spinnaker pole may be because it is too long - I think standard yard-supplied poles are now shorter than the originals. You don't say what wind strength you were using the spinnaker in but it is a large sail and if it is too windy, something may break!
When I was using my old spinnaker pole, I rigged a non-stretch Dyneema bobstay and, if conditions warranted, Dyneema side shrouds as well, to stop sideways bending. This seemed to work fairly well and I only gave up on the pole because I was fed up with it intruding into the cockpit when not in use (which was most of the time). My adjustable tack line still comes into the cockpit through the now defunct spinnaker pole tube, guided by a wooden plug and deck bush at the forward end of the tube. As long as your bobstay is fairly tight and the line doesn't stretch, you shouldn't need to adjust it.
Slightly off topic but I agree about difficult access to the space under the foredeck. I have kept the original full-sized plastic infill for when I need a double bed under the foredeck, which is not often. However, for everyday use I replace this with two pieces of ply - the forward one as a shelf and the stern one as my new lightweight forward rowing thwart. For shape, imagine making the full-sized infill in ply, chopping it into three pieces and throwing the middle bit away.
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Graham
Thanks for the update, will mull over the stiffener and thwart with pegs but probably not bother following your feedback. The pole is quite long although I try not to extend it too far, the wind strength was probably no more than F3/4 and I’m sure the bobstay will benefit from initial pulling force with the aid of a block or two in the circuit. In my experience you can't get a downward bend in the pole before flying the spinnaker just by extending the pole with as much pull as you can muster on the pole extending rig line and as such the bobstay will stretch and the pole flex upward with the spinnaker flying. Anyway will implement and give feedback when I try it soon.
Your initial reasons for the stiffener to reduce the foredeck flexing which would allow the tabernacle to sink on the leeward side and as such tilt the mast to leeward slightly does still make sense if indeed that area of the foredeck is flexing. The leeward shroud would look slacker as a result. My mast I reckon is probably the heaviest ever fitted to a Bayraider 20 being single piece, hollow wood construction for a Bermudan style main and it has been commented on before about how much slack my leeward shroud shows when close hauled. Difficult to know what tension to have on the shrouds when just the mast is up, I have been caught before by having over tight shrouds in as much that the mast does not go far enough forward resulting in the back of the club boom being too close to the foredeck ( the triangle of the jib leans to far back), So in one way I was hoping for positive news on the stiffener from you, but in another it suggests perhaps that we don't have a problem to fix and I just need to put a little more tension on the stays. I suppose I could put a straight edge across the same points as you have rested your stiffener and take a measurement from that up to the foredeck under the tabernacle with the mast not raised, then with it raised, then with the boat close hauled (get trusty helm Andy D on the case) just to see if the distance reduces significantly. What do you reckon, surely I can't be more than a few mill so may be hard to measure.
Peter
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I forgot to say - I mostly use a conventional jib instead of the self tacker these days, which is another reason for having a bowsprit. One result is that my lee shroud is much less slack, which makes me think that bending in the jib boom rather than foredeck flexing could be a cause of lee shroud slackness. Let us know if you find any foredeck flexing - as you say, it may be difficult to measure.
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I have installed a code zero on a furler on my BR20 after having changed the spinnaker pole for a more rigid aluminum one. It really works well and it is very handy singlehanded ! Also, I then somehow feel a better equilibrium when sailing.
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Catchando Bay (BR20 #48)
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Guy,
Interesting - and good looking. Who designed the code 0 and what furling or reefing gear are you using? And how have you arranged the blocks at the top of the mast? Are the sheets led back to aft oarlock bases, as with the asymmetric spinnaker, or further back to the aft horn cleat?
Sorry for all the questions but this arrangement could suit my long plank bowsprit nicely and would be great for light wind sailing during Ionian mornings.
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Graham,
here some pictures and info :
- the furler is a Hookmatic, very well built and at a good price ( 363,-€ ) : http://www.minicroiseur.fr/boutique_produit.php?id=3792
- for the blocks at the top of the mast, please see the picture. I have fixed the block of the code zero on a triangular deflector (?) which I bent to fit correctly on the top of the mast.
- the sail was made locally by Vegavoiles ( close to 500,- €) :
http://www.vegavoiles.com/voilerie/coloriez-votre-voile.html
- and the sheets are led further back to the aft horn cleat since this code zero has a large overlap when sailing with crosswind or even more pinched.
Good luck!
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Catchando Bay (BR20 #48)
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Thanks Guy. More questions I'm afraid. Was your masthead fitting one of these (before you bent it to shape)? http://www.purplemarine.com/dinghy/rwo-spinnaker-halyard-crane.html And how did you secure the middle leg to the back of the mast?
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This is exactly the piece you need, Graham, a halyard crane! I bent it over the top of the mast inverting the middle leg along the mast and screwed it in. It survived several afternoons of F5 crosswinds without any sign of fatigue. When back home, I will post a picture.
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Catchando Bay ( BR20 #48)
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Here the picture of the back of the mast:
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Catchando Bay (BR20 #48)
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Thanks Guy - I'll give it a go.
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Guy,
Now that winter is over, I've been doing a bit of metal-bashing with the halyard crane and am not at all convinced that the middle leg that extends over the top is strong enough. When I tried to bend the leg down the back of the mast, the metal sheared off quite easily (photo below). From your photos, you have obviously managed to bend yours without breaking it but I wonder how it would stand up to a sudden strong gust of wind on your code 0.
I think it is quite easily fixed with a short length of stainless tube with an inside diameter of 5mm and an outside diameter of 8mm. I sheathed the middle leg in this and bent, bashed and drilled it to shape, as in the second photo. As well as adding extra strength, the back part with the screw hole can be made as long as needed. If I think the side legs are also a bit weak, I may do the same to them.
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Graham,
thanks for alerting on this weakness. I checked on the spot ( 11 pm!) my mast and the crane ( asleep!) and didn't find any sign of weakness or change after now almost a year of sailing. But is that something one would be able to detect visually? It might be piece dependent, enough a reason to advocate the modification you did. I program it in ! Thanks!
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Guy,
The weak spot is just above the flattened end of the middle leg. I thought it might be bad luck, so after I broke the first one, I bought a second one (five months after the first and from a different shop) and it broke again in exactly the same place!
There was no warning that it was going to break - it happened quite quickly and with the second one, I had only just started the bend when it broke. The break had a sort of undramatic crumbly feel to it when it happened, which made me think that it was a weakness in the metal caused by the manufacturing process. Given what I was doing to it, I don't feel that I can complain to RWO about their product. Photo below.
I bought a short length of the reinforcing metal tube on eBay http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/221303744244?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649
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I have installed a code zero on a furler on my BR20 after having changed the spinnaker pole for a more rigid aluminum one. It really works well and it is very handy singlehanded ! Also, I then somehow feel a better equilibrium when sailing.
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Catchando Bay (BR20 #48)
Guy
Any chance of an update on your code zero experience now, i guess it's been used in anger a few times since this post.
Following a light airs sail the other day and deliberation on whether to fly the AS or not, effort of rigging against time on that point of sail i am going to make the expense of fitting a code zero with a continuous furler the next project.
I want to keep the self tacking jib as is and fly the code zero from the spin pole as per your arrangement.
Questions :
Does the furler always furl the sail tightly without having a bag of sail flapping about ?
Can you leave the furled sail hoisted when not in use without it unfurling and subsequent flogging ?
Does the furler line need tension on both sides of the sheets before it grips the drum when furling ?
Do you have to cleat off the sheets when sail furled to prevent unfurling or does the furler have brake/ ratchet inbuilt ?
Apologies for questions but i want to copy your purchases to make the process as foolproof as possible, on that note will the sailmaker have the information to make one for me if i quote your purchase details, hope you don,t mind if i do this.
Peter Cockerton
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My pleasure Peter!
I think that the code zero is probably the best buy I did for the BayRaider. I use it as soon as I can up to F4. And I confirm the feeling I had before of a pleasant equilibrium of the boat under that sail.
As for your questions :
"Does the furler always furl the sail tightly without having a bag of sail flapping about "
The furler brings the sail correctly in. If you need it firmer ( for securing overnight for example), you control the tightness with the sheet which you hold back as you are furling.
Beware, the forestay of the code zero always needs proper tightness to furl and unfurl.
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"Can you leave the furled sail hoisted when not in use without it unfurling and subsequent flogging"
Yes, when sailing I never had the problem of the code zero unfurling. The sheets are secured however ( a knot just before the block). At night at the harbor I secure it with a bungee in addition.
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"Does the furler line need tension on both sides of the sheets before it grips the drum when furling ?"
No, you pull it relatively easily depending on the points of sail. Downwind, the wind will help unfurling . Closer to the wind ( and I am surprised how close it can go ) you help it unfurling (one hand) by pulling on the sheet (second hand).
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"Do you have to cleat off the sheets when sail furled to prevent unfurling or does the furler have brake/ ratchet inbuilt ?"
This is still the weaker point of my setup. I have pulleys so far (picture). They work well but sometimes I mix the branches of the loop up and hesitate which one to pull on. I might switch to cleats. I refrained so far from it because I don’t like to make too many holes and have fixed rigging on the gunwales.
I hope you will experience as much pleasure as I do with the code zero, Peter.
Guy
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Catchando Bay (BR#48)
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Guy
Thanks for feedback, all positive, great to hear.
OK if i contact your sail maker and mention your name and hopefully he will have the pattern of the sail.
Peter
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Of course you can, Peter.
Here their coordinates which I put on 'estimate' (devis):
http://www.vegavoiles.com/voilerie/devis.html
If you want I can alert them of your message.
Guy
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Catchando Bay (BR#48)
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Reading the enormous input with great interest....
As they say "KISS". I will be including a striker line on my pretty sail, symmetric or asymmetric.
A patch at central mid-height allows a striker line to be attached to to kite and makes striking very easy. Just haul it in.
I hope this is useful.
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Contacted your sail maker and response back first thing this morning, they have the pattern and have quoted a price based on that. I have to consider the luff length of the code 0, my mast is not for a gaff rigged main; it's a one piece hollow wooden mast for a Bermudan main, I have a second fitting for my AS approx. 70 cm above the one for the main sail which I will use for the code 0.. Reading up on code 0 they reckon to have the luff length as long as possible with the foot at 50% of the Luff length. So I need to measure the length from this second mast fitting to the end of the extended carbon fibre pole and subtract the furler drum plus a little. Can I ask when you get a minute for the length of the luff on your Code 0.
Also Graham raised a good point on the design of the corner strengthening method to help with the furling, can’t remember how he described it but the strengthening webbing should be radial from the corner to allow it to roll more easier rather than a solid patch which causes “bat wings” I think he said, did this sailmaker design your head fixing in this manner, and as such the head and tack furl reasonably well.
Appreciate you help on this before I place my order. The price by the way is 380 Euros, the web site makes reference to a discount at present but my French is non- existent so it doesn’t help with placing this order, Google translator has worked well up to now.
David
Good point on the striker, i will consider having one fitted when i have made my mind up whether to have the code 0 on a fulrer or not. Ideally i would like to have a top down furler which i could use for my AS and code 0 but the cost is just to much at around £1100, will keep looking for a second hand one.
Peter
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The point on the radial corner is well taken. My code zero (hauled down on the picture ) when furled shows like an 'ear' at the top indeed.
The pattern in my case was the following:
A: 560 ( longeur totale y compris un émerillon et ses 2 manilles: 100 et l'emmagasineur et 2 manilles: 110 )
B: 610 jusqu'au taquet arrière
C: 495
D: 610
E: 256
This is a good price, I paid 480,- in Jan 2013.
Guy
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Catchando Bay (BR#48)
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Guy
Many thanks for the information i will take the measurements for the pattern and send it with the order. Hopefully the price doesn't change if mine requires a different pattern, we shall see.
Peter
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Something I forgot to mention : when you take the measurements for 'A' be aware that one needs to leave something like 25 cm between the code zero top and the mast top in order to be able to tighten the code zero well, even if the bowsprit is fastened to avoid lifting -which it will do anyhow to a certain extent-.
Guy
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Catchando Bay (BR#48)
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Guy
Many thanks for advice, did think of this and discussed it with Andy D the other day on one of our weekly Rutland sails ( sailing in a spanking new BC23 ). I even started drafting a post to ask your advice on this but as you mentioned having an aluminium pole now ( which probably doesn't bend very much) i thought it cheeky to ask as you would have no idea on flexibility of my CF pole.
Going to get mast up today on my BR20 and take those measurements for order.
One other point do you think a continuous line furler is definitely required ( thinking of cost ) or will a standard Barton do the job.
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Peter,
the advantage of the furler to me is related to the fact that the code zero is big and has a large overlap. Hence, furling with a standard drum ( is this a Barton?) would require quite long sheets, which stay in the way and add to the (possible) mess. And one would also need a drum of a big enough size.....
I hope this answers your question correctly.
Guy
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Catchando Bay (BR#48)