Swallow Yachts Association
Swallow Yachts Forum => General Discussion => Topic started by: Michael Rogers on 12 Dec 2008, 11:12
-
Success! I have managed to work out how to start a new topic (thanks to Simon King). In my frustration I actually started this one under "Problems with postings to the forum". With apologies, would anyone interested in contributing please pick the topic up there, and post further contributions here. Thanks.
Technical information on Fladen suits can be found on www.uk-fishing-tackle.co.uk. They aren't stocked by chandlers etc, and I don't know why because they would seem to have a place for sailors, and to be ideal in some circumstances. What about Vendee and Volvo round-the-world types - do they use them, and if not, why not? (Any chance of Ellen MacArthur reading the Swallowboats Forum?!). John and Su Shore, the owners and sailors of Trinovante, a 75ft schooner (see SchoonerSail on the internet), have kitted their crews out with Fladen suits for rough/cold weather, and are enthusiastic.
Looking at the technical information, I'm not sure where I got the 2 1/2 hours I "quoted" in my first post from (not, I assure everyone, from thin air). However, with a bit of cautious extrapolation (body temperature might fall off more rapidly after a certain time), that does seem about the length of time that a Fladen suit could be worn before hypothermia became dangerous. An hour's protection with minimal heat loss could be a life-saver, and that's in water at 5 degrees, which is COLD! (Does water in the UK, in either sea or lake, often/ever get that cold? Fladen are Scandinavian, and they know about cold water there.) It's likely that in a UK context the protection would be better than this.
The cold protection and buoyancy (I take Simon's point on the latter, but presumably the suit design takes this into account) provided seem to be exceptional. These suits are different from the flying suits worn by Simon, in that they do not attempt to keep the immersed wearer dry: in that respect they are similar to wetsuits, deliberately letting in a certain amount of water at wrists and ankles. In other than an immersion situation, however, they should keep a wearer warm, dry and snug in terms of cold, wind, rain, spray and flying chunks of water (as in beating in a chop). That was certainly my own (very brief, I have to say) experience of the suit.
I'll probably get a Fladen suit for Spring and Autumn sailing, and if so I'll report back. The views of others would meanwhile be welcome.
-
My son wears one of these things for fishing. They look very bulky and restrictive to me. Most fisherman's gear is designed for total inactivity in cold conditions. Jump around too much in one of these and the problem is hyper- rather than hypo- thermia. It is also important to remember that they are only buoyancy aids. A proper life jacket will have over 100N and preferably 150N buoyancy, with most of it up over your chest to bring you onto your back in the water. A suit or jacket just won't do that. I prefer to wear a non-buoyant sailing jacket with separate trousers and a manual inflation lifejacket. Then if it gets hot (ever hopeful) I can dump the jacket and just wear the lifejacket.
What you should never do is wear just the buoyant trousers. If you fell in with those on you would float head down!
My recipe for avoiding hypothermia is to follow the dictum "If it is not hot enough to lounge on the beach, it is not hot enough to go sailing". I'm a wimp.
-
Hi, Mike.
I've had a look at the Fladen site and have one major reservation about the suit. It's sealed at the wrists and ankles but NOT at the neck. (Neck seals can be uncomfortable..) This means that if (when!) you fall in, the suit fills with water. Fladen claim that it then acts as a wet suit, i.e. the trapped water is warmed by your body heat and exchange with cold water is restricted. This may well be true but what about the mass of all that nice warm water when you try to haul yourself back on board? I have enough to do when wearing just my Speedos! In a real emergency I don't think I would cope with the cold shock of several litres of water entering the suit via the neck and then having to struggle with the extra mass of sodden clothing. You might need to slit the ankle seals – if you have enough feeling left in your hands to hold a knife – to let some of the water out.
Also, whatever Fladen say, there is a remarkable loss of survival time seen in users of leaking dry suits. (The usual cause of a leak is an improperly closed suit zip, by the way.)
I do a lot of sailing on a reservoir with a water temp. of about 10 C most of the year. In winter there is a wet/dry suit requirement but even so I have seen symptoms of hypothermia among dinghy sailors who have capsised while racing. They are also extremely hard work to drag over the low gunnels of our safety RIBs when they are unable to grip anything. I've not had to go in after them as yet but I dont expect to stay dry.
(Incidentally, a full day as safetyboat driver in F4 winds and an air temp. anywhere below 10 C will soon show up any deficiencies in your own thermal defences! I always wear my Crewsaver dry suit over HH thermals, a one piece fleece suit and anything else I can cram on. A windproof jacket, a bouyancy aid, Sealskin gloves and a Berghaus mountaineering cap complete the ensemble. While sartorially somewhat lacking it does allow the wearer to sit in a puddle all day and still be mobile enough to manhandle sopping wet Laser drivers.)
For definitive information on survival times checkout :-
http://www.hse.gov.uk/research/otopdf/1995/oto95038.pdf
......and for an accessable account of what an unexpected dip might do to you take a look at :-
http://www.leoblockley.org.uk/documents/cold-water-survival.pdf
The best advice seems to be – dont fall in! But if you do, be wearing an insulated dry suit, a 150N life jacket (with hood) and have a personal locator beacon in your pocket.
-
I'm quite interested to hear how other Swallow Boaters get on with their sailing at this time of year. Do most of us carry on regardless of the water temperature with the sort of gear we use in summer? Do we wait “...until the weather suits my clothes...” as the song has it, and have the boat laid up somewhere until spring or do we all struggle into some form of protective gear and sail on, blue noses and all? I don't mind cold clear days myself but I draw the line at driving sleet - unlike some I know who sail with every sign of enjoyment in weather I wouldn't inflict on an Emperor Penguin!
-
I am a softy, fair weather sailor. I lay my boat up from October to April, usually in the garden, but I may rent some space in a shed down at Sharpness Dock on the Severn next year. I friend keeps his MacGregor there and it is much easier to work on it under cover there.
It isn't just the cold I do not like in the winter, it is the short days as much as anything else. I also like a break from any activity, then it is more fun to get back to it the next season. Role on April (and the delivery of my new Swallow Boat...). So I don't need really foul weather gear, just something wind and rain proof for bad summer weather.
-
I to have lay-up my BayRaider Crofter under cover so that I can make some alterations like Claus has on his.
Happy New Year, and good sailing.
David
-
Hi Mike,
I've been kayaking in a Chill Cheater paddlesuit for the last few years. I live in Newfoundland and paddle year round. It gets pretty cold here at times, but the paddlesuit keeps me very comfortable. The suit does not have latex seals which is a plus for me. Here is a link http://www.chillcheater.com/products/shop.asp?cid=795
All the best
-
Hi, Jim.
Sounds good. Are the Chill Cheaters waterproof at the neck? A lot of kayakers in the UK wear a full wetsuit and a windpoof cagoule over a spray deck – substituting a drysuit for touring. As you suggest, Latex seals are less than perfect. True, they keep the water out and are excellent on a divers dry suit - but for sailing give me Neoprene every time. Less prone to tear, good insulating properties with no hint of the dead fish Latex feel about them and last but not least, the thicker material doesnt cut into your flesh at all.
I have a Crewsaver Hyperdry Pro Neo which I can wear all day (as far as the neck and wrist seals are concerned.) The design of the zip is less user friendly – especially after a few coffees, or worse, beers.
For info, see:-
http://www.crewsaver.co.uk/Crewsaver/Crewsaver_Leisure_Products/index.html?catid=29
The biggest drawbacks that I can see with all garments such as these is that they are not “breathable” enough for strenuous activity in air temperatures above 10 oC (Boil-in-the-bag yachtie, anyone?) and, on the otherhand, at lower temperatures they need high tech base and mid layers to keep the bulk down and still be warm. ..especially if you are sitting relatively imobile for long periods e.g. when helming. Modern oilskins are much more adaptable and comfortable to wear than a drysuit but not much help if you are actually in the water rather than on it. Accidents, after all, do tend to happen when you are not prepared for them and so a quick look at the survival time charts (See my previous posting) is all it takes to keep me in my drysuit all winter and most of the spring and autumn, too.
Cheers!
Tony
-
Hi Tony,
I find the neck seal and arm seals almost as good a regular latex seals. I've practiced kayak rescues every year in my chillcheater for the last 4 years. I get minor leaks around the arms, but it could just be condensation from the cold water( 4C to 10C) we practice in. Nothing noticed around the neck seal. The seals seem much more durable than latex seals. The suit is comfortable up to 10 to 15C when paddling, it is supposed to be breathable , compared to my old non breathable suit it is. The chillcheater is also more quiet and comfortable than other drysuits I've tried. You are right about needing a high tech base layer or wool. When I move into a small sailboat the chillcheater suit will be worn regularly.
Chillcheaters are made in UK bonus for you.
jim
-
Thanks for that, Jim.
I think a visit to a local stockist is in order before I get on the water this season.
Cheers!
Tony
-
I started this topic, but decided I had nothing further to contribute until I had put my money where my mouth is and bought a suit myself. This I have now done, and this is a brief report on my early experience of it while sailing this Spring (on the lake at Tatton Park).
I bought a Fladen one-piece suit, which cost £75 including carriage (some of the other suits which have been mentioned are right outside my price range). I was looking for something wearable while sailing at season-ends (not during high summer, if we get one), and which would above all provide protection from hypothermia in the event of a capsize, especially while sailing solo. I can swim, but am skinny and seem to feel the cold in the water (possibly also age-related - I am 70+).
The good quality of the suit was puzzling for the price, Fladen being a Swedish firm, until I found a 'made in China' label tucked away up inside a leg! It really is very well made. It feels less bulky to wear than it looks, and is not at all restrictive - much less so, indeed, than multiple layers would be to achieve the same degree of insulation (and see below re buoyancy). Getting too hot has not been a problem so far: I don the suit over shorts and t-shirt once I have rigged and am all ready to go, and do not throw myself around a lot once I am under way (14 ft Storm Petrel, to remind folks). Of course it will become too warm under certain circumstances - that's an inevitable flipside. But it is snug and wind- and rain-proof, with a useful hood. I cannot over-emphasise what a pleasure it is to wear compared with a wet-suit.
To clear up one misconception in the discussion so far, the suit does not have any seals to prevent water getting in at wrists, ankles and neck. In that sense it is a wet-suit BUT with lots of insulation. I haven't immersed it (yet!), but you only have to see the standards of hypothermia protection it gives all on its own (see the website) to know that heat loss is reduced ++, even if one gets wet in the process. It gives 80 newtons of buoyancy - enough on its own for my 'routine' lake sailing, though I will wear a life jacket as well offshore.
A very small disadvantage is that when I climb aboard a bit more water comes with me, draining out of the trouser legs, than would otherwise be the case! I can live with that. So far, I consider the suit money very well spent.
I have also picked up an indirect tribute from the RNLI. A lifeboat rescued someone in a Fladen suit who had been in the water for over an hour. Because of the circumstances (season, weather, local conditions, previous experience) they were expecting him to be moribund or dead, and were astonished to find him none the worse for his extensive ducking in rough cold seas. They attributed this to his suit, with which they were reportedly much impressed (there was a splash in the local press).
-
Hi, an update, and a small attack of smugness.
I continue to be pleased with my Fladen suit. It keeps me wonderfully snug in adverse weather, and (like any suit) too warm in other weather. I have watched people struggle into expensive suits which are less comfortable to wear and will give little protection against hypothermia after immersion, and am well pleased with my decision.
The smugness arises from seeing Fladen suits for sale from a well-known on-line chandlery, a special offer at £94, apparently no less than £50 off the RRP (£144). I don't understand how the market in these things works, but it makes what I paid (£75 delivered) seem a real bargain.
-
There are several approving references to Fladen suits on the forum but this very old thread is the best. It's a testament to how cold the weather still is in the frozen wastes of, er, Wales that I wore mine on Bala yesterday. It kept me warm and dry without overdoing it and is very comfortable to wear. If Scottish trawlermen use them, that's good enough for me. Like Michael, I originally bought mine for £75 and if you shop around, they can still be had for about £90. Very good value compared to some of the designer yottie stuff on the market.
-
An alternative range of flotation suits is those from Mullion which is what we used on the Research Ships. You can get various degrees of insulation and pay various prices for them but the range does start at or below £100. In general the less costly suits would be more appropriate for sailing, some of the more expensive immersion suits are designed to allow you to fall into the North Sea in winter and survive 6 to 9 hours. As a result they are somewhat restrictive if only because you become so much larger in size!
I've tried using an old Mullion x1 suit for sailing and it keeps me nice and warm but any real exertion results in being too hot and sweaty; one of their lighter weight flotation suit range would be better. After immersion, the suits are self draining usually with neoprene wrist seals but mesh at the ankles. You tighten them around wrist and ankles with a velcro strap which can be ripped open to allow them to drain quicker, and for ease of getting them on/off.
One thing to remember is that the built in buoyancy tends to negate the effect of a lifejacket with regard to turning an unconscious person onto his/her back. Hence larger life-jackets are advised for use with a flotation suit. On the other hand, for those of us who sail single-handed being unconscious in the water is probably fatal anyway, so maybe being face down is better!
Yours cheerfully, Peter
-
I used to windsurf for as much of the year as I could stand, and a good winter 'steamer'could keep an active windsurfer adequately warm when snowing. The difference with sailing however is that windsurfers get the inside of their wetsuits wet before they start, which is what keeps you warm. I've even seen them pour a flask of tepid water in the neck of the suit before going in the water to prevent the initial cold water shock. Most sailors don't do that, so dinghy sailors who capsize in winter wearing dry wetsuits may be subject to cold water shock on initial immersion. I believe there is a theory that you can to some extent condition yourself to cold water shock by progressively cooling showers, but I haven't tried it.
I toyed with the idea of an immersion suit for sailing my K1 mini keelboat (or 'keel dinghy'), but then I discovered that the latest generation of drysuits claim to be 3 season comfortable, breathable to some extent, and easier to don than previously - albeit at £350 and up. There is one model with a U shaped dry zip that should make getting in and out easier than the contortions necessary with an over the shoulder or straight front zip.
-
Seeing this thread on the 'front page' again, I had a rather strange Rip-van-Winkel moment. This is because, for reasons I won't go into but related to moving house, we have been off line for about 5 weeks, with no other access to the internet. I'm just catching up, and it's been a bit disorientating. Then I see something I wrote 7 years ago on the forum - and quickly checked that we are indeed now in 2015. Weird! Anyway, it's nice to be 'back', and I have to accept that the internet is now such an integral part of how we live that, like virtually everyone else, I've come to depend on it. Hrrrumph.
With regard to Peter T's contribution and something I wrote in 2009, for 'life jacket' read buoyancy aid, which I've always worn and frankly prefer - just a personal thing. During my Durdle Door 'experience' last summer my buoyancy aid was just the job, and I wouldn't have wanted to have been wearing something which tried to turn me on my back.
I have to say that I haven't worn my Fladen suit for some time. However "Cavatina' is now kept at Studland, Dorset, on an annual, not season only, boat park berth. This makes out-of-season sailing a real possibility, for which the Fladen outfit will be eminently suit-able.
Michael
-
Michael's post does make me think. I wear an automatic life jacket, sometimes. I am a very bad person and don't wear one all the time, with life lines holding me in and survival suits on as well. It seems to take the pleasure out of what I regard as a low risk recreational activity (I'll probably drown next time out in punishment for saying that). When I do wear the jacket, I often wonder if a dinghy buoyancy aid might not be more suitable. If I did fall in, and the jacket inflated, it would make it hellishly difficult to get back to the boat and back on board. And if I did get back on board, then what do I do? Sit there in the inflated thing, or take it off and have no buoyancy at all? I think an aid might be better. What I don't like about them is the amount of space they take up when you are trying to stow them on board.
-
This is what Sail Caledonia says about buoyancy aids and lifejackets (Appendix B of the Safety Instructions):
"Buoyancy aids or lifejackets with whistle are to be provided for each of the crew. These should be worn on open water or when in canal locks. Buoyancy aids are preferred as they give assistance to the user in the event of capsize. Lifejackets that have no integral buoyancy are not ideal as they either provide no assistance or, if inflated, hamper the user in recovery of the boat. Automatically inflating lifejackets are not suitable as they hamper the user in the event of capsize."
There are buoyancy aids that look like the sort of gilet you would wear when huntin', shootin' and fishin'. As recommended by Roger Barnes, President of the Dinghy Cruising Association http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Baltic-Surf-and-Turf-Trend-50N-Buoyant-Gilet-Size-Large-Colour-Navy-Black-/320960742864?_trksid=p2054897.l4275
-
For the budget conscious, or just plain stingy like me, Decathlon do the Tribord 50N buoyancy gilet for £39.99:
http://www.decathlon.co.uk/izeber-m-life-vest-black-id_8309128.html
Sizing is small, so I'd suggest getting a bigger one than you think you need, or visiting one of their stores if you're close enough (check they have them first - these appear to go in and out of stock). They have crotch straps, are windproof and warm, and also reduce the incidence of dents and bruises at the boat to person interface.
-
I can vouch for the quality and value-for-money of the Decathlon Tribord range. I kitted out with them after finishing my first kit build in 2003, and all their stuff is still going strong. Elsewhere you'll pay at least twice as much for similar quality and a posh brand name.
-
I don't know the combined time "Swallowers" have spent in the water. It is probably not as much as we have all spent as dinghy sailors.
Shock, diminishing physical function and eventual hypothermia are probably our major concerns.
As a windsurfer, I have everything from a 3mm shortie (cute) wetsuit to a full drysuit. The number of times I have seen RIB's going out in the summer on a settled forecast, with crews wearing dry suits.
Currently I have a set of mid layer salopettes, which I suppose, are the modern equivalent of the 1970's woolly bear suit.
I don't know what the elfs from safety say. (ha ha play on words).
-
I spotted this on my travels...
Ocean Rodeo HEAT Drysuit
http://www.board-worx.com/wetsuits.html?manufacturer=97
-
I spotted this on my travels...
Ocean Rodeo HEAT Drysuit
http://www.board-worx.com/wetsuits.html?manufacturer=97
It looks an interesting option, here's a gif I found on the web which explains how it works!
-
An interesting option, but the price.......!! My Fladen suit cost me £70 and will, if it comes to it, protect me from hypothermia for (relatively) ages. I'm content.