Swallow Yachts Association
Swallow Yachts Forum => General Discussion => Topic started by: Graham W on 30 May 2011, 16:50
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I came across a company on the internet specialising in seals and bought a few metres of two types for the less than watertight lockers on my Bayraider. After much trial and error, I found that the following was the most effective in keeping water out:
1. The outboard (horizontal) edge of the locker should have a seal strip where the bulb sticks out horizontally from the rim. Vertically might seem to make more sense (the bulb sticking upwards at right angles to the rim) but I found that the locker would not shut.
2. The inboard edges (three of them, two vertical, one horizontal) should be lined with a seal where the bulb sticks out at right angles to the rim. For reasons that I do not understand, I found that most water was entering the lockers from the two lower corners of the rim (backwash?)
3. It is not necessary to seal the fore and aft rims unless you think you are going to sink
4. The seal company recommends that you glue the seals in place. As the seal slots have tenacious metal jaws which fit over the rim, I am going to see if I can do without. Their two-part waterproof adhesive is pretty toxic stuff, including toluene amongst other ingredients.
I have field-tested this combination with a powerful hose from every conceivable direction and not a drip has entered the lockers since installing the seals. An added benefit is that if the locker lid accidentally falls shut, instead of a loud crash, it sounds more like the closing of a VW Golf door. Photo below.
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Hi Graham,
surprisingly you seem to be the only other person here who minds and adresses the lee stowage locker filling with water. Surprisingly, because it is a general problem, and because it is of relevance for the stability and safety of the boat.
I must say I am a bit tired of this problem, I just had another wet locker misery yesterday when out in a good breeze and chop. There is quite enough to do for a singlehander sailing the boat in a breeze, and additionally bailing out the stowage compartments at sea is not as simple as it sounds, in those circumstances.
This sealing that you have done is out of reach for me. I would not know where to get the seal profiles from here where I am, and that toxic glue that you mention is nothing for the average amateur for sure.
May I recommend the yard doesn't leave this to the customers but itself seeks and finds a general solution for the possibility the stowage lockers filling up with a lot of water in adverse conditions, when it would matter seriously.
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The first time I noticed the problem of water entering the locker was after a gust when I heard an explosion: nothing broken but one of the gas lifejackets in the locker filled with water had blown up.
I am interested in adopting the solution proposed by Graham, since the problem is there but can be solved.
Some questions and notes:
- Q: since the seal was purchased through the internet, could we have the references of the seal and company? They may be shipping anywhere. Thanks.
- Note: the adhesive one applies is in limited amounts and the toluene content in it , (one of) the solvent(s) used in the composition should be no problem in the open air. Maybe Sikaflex could be used here instead just as well.
- Note: the fact that water enters mainly from the lower corners of the rim (well observed!) is maybe due to the turbulences there when water is flushing out of the grove in addition to the fact that the vertical wall at this point, preventing water entry, is in gusts not at 90° but more horizontal at 45°, or less.
Catchando Bay (BR)
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Thanks for this. I have not yet had the problem, and dont want to.
Please can you tell us where you got the seals from i.e. web address would be fine.
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Graham,
I had another wet locker sail today. With minimum sail btw.
Been musing.: I think your seal solution is an improvement, and can work almost perfectly, but it is limited by the fastening of the lid hinges. The screws of the lid hinges on the gunnel airtank wall have precarious grip. I had to fix mine often, with limited and only temporary success each time.
From there I would say the yard would still have to do work on strengthening the hinges fastening to accommodate any such seal solution.
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The company is http://www.sealsdirect.co.uk/
and the two types of seal are:
ETS59 and
ETS58 (I cannot remember which was which).
The adhesive, which has been wholly unnecessary because of the strong grip of the seal metal jaws, is A262.
Claus, I have had no problems with the locker hinges so far. Or with any further water ingress for that matter, so it is definitely worth doing.
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... I have field-tested this combination with a powerful hose from every conceivable direction and not a drip has entered the lockers since installing the seals. ...
Graham,
the really relevant test would be sailing well heeled with waves or green water coming in over the lee gunnel or with splashes of water flying in from the hard entry of the windward bow and landing on the lee locker, how much of that water would gush or drip into the lee stowage below.
I had heard the argument that one does not need to sail with so much heel that the water on the lee lid will not drain into the cockpit but flow back into the stowage from the outside of the lid. That argument is not taking into account heavy weather situations where one cannot avoid it. You do not want to be caught in such weather out in the open and notice your lee stowage is filling with a lot of water.
The hinges,
i.e. the four screws fastening them to the gunnel airtank wall have to absorb the upward pushing force onto the lid from the seal underneath. Typically these hinges already come loose when a sheet or similar is accidentally caught between lid and seat underneath.
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I'm not really affected by this. The one cockpit locker on my BayCruiser is definitely not watertight as I have a large hole in it for the fuel hose to come out of. But I wondered if making the cockpit lockers on the BayRaider fully watertight might not affect the boat's self righting ability from total inversion? If the cockpit lockers are watertight, they will effectively become large additional buoyancy tanks, which might stop the automatic tilting brought about by one side intentionally flooding. If there is a large, sealed chamber either side when the boat is upside down, it would be very stable in that position and hard to pull upright.
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the really relevant test would be sailing well heeled with waves or green water coming in over the lee gunnel or with splashes of water flying in from the hard entry of the windward bow and landing on the lee locker, how much of that water would gush or drip into the lee stowage below.
I had heard the argument that one does not need to sail with so much heel that the water on the lee lid will not drain into the cockpit but flow back into the stowage from the outside of the lid. That argument is not taking into account heavy weather situations where one cannot avoid it. You do not want to be caught in such weather out in the open and notice your lee stowage is filling with a lot of water.
The hinges,
i.e. the four screws fastening them to the gunnel airtank wall have to absorb the upward pushing force onto the lid from the seal underneath. Typically these hinges already come loose when a sheet or similar is accidentally caught between lid and seat underneath.
Sailing on Lake Bala, you never really know what the wind is going to do next, both in speed and direction - hence the installation of the Tackticks wind system. Since installing the locker seals, I have had some fairly hairy sails, with near capsize and plenty of spray coming over the bows. No full waves yet but that will surely come on a sunny afternoon in Corfu. I was too busy trying not to capsize to notice what all this water was doing but I can say that none of it made it into the lockers. If I do manage to ship full waves and/or capsize (I am planning to do a deliberate one in the warm Ionian Sea) I will report back what, if anything, happened.
I think that because I have deliberately used the wrong profile seal for the outboard edge (bulb sticking out horizontally from the rim instead of up at right angles), the hinges are under less strain, at least from the seals. I have managed to shut my sheets, ratchet blocks, padlocks and various other foreign bodies under the locker and so far no damage to the hinges. I like David's idea of sheet pockets to keep all these items out of harm's way but all the commercially available ones are too deep to fit properly.
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If there is a large, sealed chamber either side when the boat is upside down, it would be very stable in that position and hard to pull upright.
I have not sealed the fore and aft rims of the lockers as it seemed unnecessary to prevent normal water ingress from rain, spray, cleaning etc. So if water needs to enter the lockers to help with righting, it can do so, albeit more slowly than before. One for Matt, I think.
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I was in a windy regatta today. Made 100 to 150 ltr. of water in the port stowage compartment in a very short time. This stowage compartment water filling is destabilising the boat. And this design fault is self-increasing; the more water is in the stowage, the lower the boat is in the water, and the more is the heel of the boat to the side of the filled stowage, and the more water is coming over the gunwhale.
It is an increasingly unsettling and distracting design fault as you sail and work hard in windy conditions in order to keep the boat safe, but see the situation deteriorate further and further. My sail today ended in a collision with another boat. The other boat was on port tack and did not watch out at all. I was probably distracted by this problem to watch out enough. My boat got demasted. Even to get the boat back out of the water onto the trailer was a big mess with all that water on one side which does not drain out as you retrieve the boat.
Swallowboats must tackle this problem, now. This problem has been known a long time, and it clearly compromises the seaworthiness of the boat. You are warned.
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This must have been awkward, Claus.
In order to limit available space for water in the lockers, I fill them with closed polypropylene boxes which I use for storage. Avoids also exposure of the spare gas lifejackets to water.
A suggestion: one could in addition install a syphon low enough in the lockers so as to pump most of the water out. The outlet would go via a tube through the ballast to the sump.
Catchando Bay (BR)
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Message for Peter I
The message system doesn't seem to work for replies so here is mine:
Hi Peter
I ordered too much, not really being sure of what would fit where. 4m of ETS59 and 6m of ETS58. The problem is, I am unable to remember how much went where - the best idea is to look at my first post and the photo and measure the rims that I mention.
Good luck!
Graham
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On my (home built, plywood, unfinshed work in progress) BR17 the lockers have cutouts at the bottom to enable the water to drain out. Worst case when sailing heeled would be an inch or two in the bottom which would drain out again when she comes upright. But the lockers have a flat plywood top, not an overlapping arrangement, so cannot realistically be made watertight.
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Anthony,
Instead of going with the standard ply hatches, we used a 100% watertight hatch on the seat lockers on the BR17. We are also looking at using these as standard on the epoxy ply BR20's.
(http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h131/bloggs1968/BR17test2005.jpg)
I thnk Matt is also looking at these for a trial. Let me know if you want details.
regards,
Andrew
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Andrew,
Those sealable hatches look good, and I'd be very interested to find out more. (I take it you also close the holes at the bottom?). I'm hoping to start on the floor subassembly this weekend, so a long way to go yet before I need them. Are they bigger or smaller than the standard hole in the locker top panel?
Anthony
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It looks from the photos of a BR20 on Andrew's website as though I've missed something.
The lockers on a BR17 only extend down to the floor, i.e. above the ballast tank, so can be made self-draining into the cockpit. It seems that the BR20 lockers extend to the bottom of the hull, with the water tank inboard. That would make it hard to get the water out and I now understand why it causes such misery. My apologies for a non-helpful suggestion to the BR20 owners out there.
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Hi Anthony,
The hatches we are using come from Armstrong Nautical in the US. Matt can probably provide if you ask him.
They are a smaller cutout (hatch size 10" x 20") than the current lids but are 100% watertight and a lot less work to fit than the standard lid. The scupper hole in the bottom of the locker is closed off and a seat drain is plumbed in. See the picture of the boat below at undercoat stage to see what I mean.
With the BR20 in timber, there is a shelf in the bottom of the locker that is at cockpit sole height and a drain scupper that drains into the cockpit. A 200mm access port in the locker allows you to get below the sole height shelf. See the second picture below.
We have just about finished a BR20 with a change to the lockers to the Armstrong product. That's the beauty of the timber boats - they are much easier to change than the GRP versions. Send me an email and I can discuss the hatches and fitting if you want to go that way.
regards,
Andrew
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Andrew,
Thanks again for a very clear explanation. Thought it was odd to have a space that was asking to be filled with water. (Actually it still is. Has anyone considered pumpable water ballast on the outboard tanks?)
The trouble is that I've already cut out for the bigger lids. That said, since we may want to camp on her, dry lockers for carrying sleeping bags and so on would be very attractive. I've got some way to go before I get to the tank lids, so I can defer the decision for now.
The original thread was on GRP BR20s, which have a very different lid design. But maybe the lockers can be sealed shut and the hatches put through the lids?
Anthony
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A question about the seals: Have I understood correctly the ETS58 is used on the inboard (lower) edges of the locker and the ETS59 on the outboard upper edge?
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Hi Graham,
In your original post you write "For reasons that I do not understand, I found that most water was entering the lockers from the two lower corners of the rim (backwash?)" I was wondering how you tested this ( CCTV inside the closed locker while throwing buckets of water at the lid?)
Most of the water that gets into my locker gets in through the hole I had drilled for the fuel hose - Doh!
best wishes
Simon
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I decided that I should try and answer my own question so yesterday I conducted some experiments. Before I describe the experiment and the results I think that I should reiterate that I have not suffered from a great deal of water getting into my boats lockers but have to admit that the worst conditions I have sailed in are a Force 5 and short Solent chop. My experience has been that the BayRaider is a very dry boat especially when sailed upright.
My experiments were conducted with the boat on her trailer and she was level. I was interested in Grahams washback and having looked at the locker wondered if the locker lid was dividing the water flow as it flowed down the end grooves and directing some of the water along the inboard lower edge and into the locker.
I paced a video camera and some lights inside the locker and used a large bucket of water as my simulated wave. I threw the water down and along the locker lid with my aim point being the middle of the lid.
The video shows that the lowest corners of the closed lid impede the water while it is draining away. Some of the water attempts to drain down the inside edge of the ends of the lid and then meets the lower edge of the lid and is forced around the corner. At this point the lip of the locker is only approx 2c.m. high and the water spurts into the locker over the lip. Mean while a pool of water is formed on top of the lid. This water quickly fills the drain reservoir and then shoots under the lid into the locker.
I conducted a second test with the locked wedged open a c.m. or so. This allowed a greater flow rate down the side grooves and reduced the amount of water entering the locker from either the lower corner or the top edge.
Water gets into the locker when it is present in quantities that allow it to flow over the upper and lower lips. The use of seals will restrict how much water gets in but I would recommend that lower edges of the locker lid should be shaped to allow water to escape at a greater rate. I also think that the lower lip of the locker should be raised in the lower corners to prevent any water that does get around the corner from entering the locker.
For the heavy weather sailors some additional form of plumbing to help carry the water away could be employed. Either from the top reservoir down through the locker and out through a skin fitting or scuppers running from the locker top through the air tank to the sea.
The seals discussed in this thread will help but if the flow of the draining water is not improved then the water may still find its way in. Also a completely sealed locker will make it difficult to right the boat in the very unlikely event of a capsize.
At the end of the day how far do you want to go, or how many buckets of water per minute to you want to drain away?
Note: The greater the angle of heel the slower the water will flow away.
The locker cam video may be viewed here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Utx5lk57TU8
best wishes
Simon
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That has got to be the most gripping video I have ever watched.
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You won't be wanting to watch the sequel then?!!
Simon
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A question about the seals: Have I understood correctly the ETS58 is used on the inboard (lower) edges of the locker and the ETS59 on the outboard upper edge?
Simon
Correct!
I like the video - I just used a lot of trial and error and a high pressure hose but you have definitely confirmed that the water is coming in where you probably would not expect it
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Thanks for the confirmation - I shall be placing my order for the seals today.
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Well, it is nearly time to return home from the Ionian. I have done my best (in the interests of science) to ship blue water over the bows and gunnels (in up to F6 apparent) but only succeeded in generating huge amounts of spray. I have been much too idle to empty the boat of holiday detritus and practice a capsize. I can still report that no water has entered the lockers so far. Even if water was to enter under more extreme circumstances, I am happy with the seals and recommend them to all GRP BR owners.
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I have been following this discussion with interest. Although I have not had a problem with water in the lockers we are planning some more sea sailing - tomorrow, and I certainly do not want a problem with water in the lockers. So I have fitted the seals.
I have one or two more facts for those still interested in fitting these seals. The lower seal on front of the locker uses ETS58 and each one is 165 cm long. The top back seal uses ETS59 and is 140 cm long.
Putting on the ETS58 was reasonably simple - I could push it on and it stayed in place but hammering with a rubber mallet pushed it on more. The TES59 on the back upper part was very difficult to push on. It kept falling off. I then found that I could get it on well if I worked inch by inch pushed it in place and then hammered it quite hard with a rubber mallet. It was than surprising how far it went on and stayed very firmly.
These seals certainly don't need gluing they grip so well.
I cut then with strong kitchen scissors and then a wire cutter.
So let us hope they keep the water out in the waves and wind tomorrow!
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I've fitted this type of seal on cars and found the best way to get them on is to bend them back along there length as you go, this has the effect of opening the gap. Its then easier to push on to start with. Still use a mallet after to get it pushed right home.
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RE:"... I also think that the lower lip of the locker should be raised in the lower corners to prevent any water that does get around the corner from entering the locker...".
Hi Simon, thank you for sharing with us the results of your convincing experiment.
Two questions:
- you suggest that the lower lip of the locker should be raised in the lower corners to prevent any water. On the lower lip on the existing boats would you not rather use the second higher seal (on the pictures sent earlier) to achieve this?
- do you intend to or did you modify the shape of the lid since then? I intended to do it when I found your post.
Thank you.
Guy
Catchando Bay , BR #48
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I finally managed to ship large amounts of water over the side, during the first race in Sail Caledonia. The race started before we were ready and we only had one reef in when we probably should have had two. Thanks to the seals, not one drop entered the lockers.
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Graham, Good to hear that you had an exciting sail and have banished wet locker misery.
Looking at the photos by John Macpherson (photo number 097 link below) for sail Caledonia 2012 it looks like there was a capsize. Was that a participants boat or just someone out for some fun. If it was a participants boat are there any lessons to be learnt?
Colin
photo link: http://albums.phanfare.com/isolated/e3QEKaUS/1/5625633_6396245#imageID=159621033
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I regret to admit I was the skipper of the capsized BR20 and the fault was entirely mine, not the boat and not the crew.
The capsize occurred because in the rush to start the race I misjudged the strength of the wind gusts and the capability of the crew and skipper. In my haste to start the race I did not use water ballast (and I don’t think any of the other BR’s did either) and failed to reef so in we went when we jibbed and were a little slow to shift the crew weight upwind.
On the plus side we rapidly received assistance from the Sail Caledonia rescue boat. I was able climb onto the hull from the stern and kept my fingers out of the centre board slot that temptingly offered a finger hold as I pulled myself on, before the raised centre board wacked back into the hull like a guillotine. If anyone needs to climb back onto an upturned hull they MUST keep away from an extended centre board as they climb onto the hull.
I was easily able to get the centre board out of its slot and vertical thanks to the notch designed into its foot and three of us quickly righted the boat by leaning on it towards the self-flooded tank on the port side (starboard when inverted!) of the boat. I am confident that two or even one of us could have righted it. I certainly advocate practising a capsize in controlled conditions (with assistance at hand), it is great boost to confidence in the boat.
Thanks to simple but effective securing of the locker lids and all loose gear in the boat tied-in we did not lose any gear except an unsecured mooring warp. I strongly recommend fastening locker lids, mine have simple Velcro straps that take up no space, are easy to use and worked when needed. I have not fitted seals to the locker lids and they filled with water -in the circumstances seals I don’t think seals would have kept them dry – but maybe Graham can prove me wrong.
After righting the boat we were able to sort out the mess, fill the ballast tank and get sailing again. We completed the course, slowly, with full tanks, no reefs and no major harm except wounded pride.
Given that the other BRs apparently relied on reefing (and better seamanship) without water ballast, I am interested in expert opinion as to whether reefing is more important than water ballast for stability in various conditions.
My only other comment is that apart from my embarrasing start, the Sail Caledonia event was great fun, I learned a great deal and the other particpants were a interesting, friendly and forgiving bunch of people.
Matthew
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I am interested in expert opinion as to whether reefing is more important than water ballast for stability in various conditions.
I am no expert but I would say that for comfortable cruising, especially when solo, ballast first and then reef as necessary. For racing with crew, reef first and only ballast if essential.
In the spirit of scientific enquiry, I was out solo today in an F6, ballasted and double reefed. The boat behaved impeccably but I got very, very wet. There was so much water flying around that a spongeful even found its way, for the first time, into the starboard locker.
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Thanks for the feedback on the capsize Matthew - very useful to pool experiences. The last time I was in an accidental capsize (not a BR) was a similar situation - a minor error by the skipper was magnified by the inexperienced crew who did nothing to help the situation and their weight on the wrong side resulted in a capsize. So lesson for us all - be aware of how much crew weight they can/cannot rely on in an emergency and sail / use ballast etc accordingly.
Colin
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To report on my experience on wet lockers and as mentioned by Antony Huggett earlier and also having watched here above the interesting video of Simon Knight, I cut out the corners of the covers so as to allow water flushing out from the sides easily. I also glued foam on the back edge. This modification worked well recently. In a gust my gunwales went well into the water and the boat caught some 3-4 baskets of water. As in a previous experience, this would have brought a lot of water inside the lockers. But in this recent case I had only one inch of water. But also I could watch two real fountains flushing out of the sides.
Guy
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Catchando Bay (BR48)
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Guy,
Thanks for reporting your experience and posting the picture - I really must do the same to my own boat.
Simon
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Guy,
well done.
Every step and detail towards reducing the water intake rate there in heavy weather is surely helping. I wish the yard itself offers guidance to all owners, and solution for new boats.
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I have today done like Guy has suggested above, cut out the lower corners of the locker lids, plus I have cut 20mms from the lower edges of the side flanks in order to open the drain channel a bit more.
Full success, the draining rate increased xfold.
It was easier than I had feared. I had feared the electric jigsaw would create serrated cutting edges. But no, all is smooth, and looks professional.
I used an old jigsawing trick though: First mask the area to be cut with some duct tape, then mark the cutting line on that. CUT through material and tape WITH A SPECIAL BLADE FOR CERAMICS. Subsequently sand with 120 - 180 sanding paper on small triangular sander.
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This is what my lid cutouts look like.
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Hi,
Thanks for the pictures. Just so that I am clear these pairs of waste have been cut from the edge of the locker lid that sits in the deck groove.
Did you have to remove the lids from the boat to do the cutting?
best wishes
Simon
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...Just so that I am clear these pairs of waste have been cut from the edge of the locker lid that sits in the deck groove.
Did you have to remove the lids from the boat to do the cutting? ...
Yes. And yes. C.
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Dear All,
Thank you for all your helpful comments and suggestions on this topic. We have found that the best course of action, and one that we will be fitting on all future boats is:
Cut away the side flanks of the locker lids, about 20mm off, up the edge, making sure your cuts wrap around the corners
Fit a self adhesive neoprene tape (20mm wide works) to the back and side edges of the lockers. We dont bother with a mitre joint at the corners, a simple butt works well.
Fit a locker catch to hold the lockers closed. This is needed because with the neoprene in place you will probably find that lockers do not close fully under their own weight, but it is also good to avoid loosing contents in the event of inversion.
The neoprene also has the happy advantage of stopping the GRP grinding noise when you step on the outboard edge of the locker lids.
Please see the attached photos. We tested by locking an employee inside while throwing buckets of water simultaneously at the seat. We also taped tissue paper round the whole of the inside perimeter to give tell tales of any leaks and not a drop came in.
For more information please contact me.
Best wishes,
Matt