Swallow Yachts Association
Swallow Yachts Forum => General Discussion => Topic started by: Julian Merson on 19 Jul 2020, 11:35
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I appreciate this is going to be a bit of a 'marmite' post. Coming to a BC20 after several years with Drascombes, there is a thriving independent Facebook group of Drascombe owners and I just wondered whether there was demand for such a group for Swallows. Appreciate a page already exists for the builders.
The Drascombe group is generally populated by owners posting pictures of their various trips, queries about aspects of ownership, etc. and I'm rather missing seeing similar posts from the Swallow community. I'm not suggesting, for a moment, that the Drascombe approach is right - in fact there are all sorts of things that could be improved. And, returning to marmite, the group has its detractors as well as promotors.
There may be good reasons for the SB Association not having a page of its own for these purposes and apologies for upsetting anyone if this is the case. At the same time there's nothing to stop anyone out there starting and attempting to grow such a group independently. So perhaps it might be good for the SB Association to seize the agenda, and create and maintain a page which complemented the excellent stuff going on here, where people could just post lots of anecdotal trivia/pictures to do with their boats.
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Thanks Julian for raising this topic and asking for opinions before a "competing" Facebook page unexpectedly appears.
I understand many people are used to navigating Facebook and might find it easier to contribute personal content etc than this forum. I appreciate the forum takes time and effort from Jonathan to maintain - would it be easier on Facebook?
However, from my point of view I already spend probably too much time on an increasing number of social media sites for business and leisure and would prefer not to be jumping from Facebook to this forum and back to keep up with Swallow Boat community content.
Also I think it would be hard to avoid duplication, and worse, contradicting content especially if one of the sites is not kept in sync.
I'd prefer to keep Swallow Boat community content in the established and familiar location, even if it's not as easy to use for some as FB.
Matthew
BR20 Gladys
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For very good personal reasons, I avoid Facebook and closed my account several years ago. I'm probably not the only one.
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Which is all perfectly understandable. However, there are inherent dangers in remaining distant from social media sites. Again, if I may use experience over the years with the Drascombe Association, for years they resisted calls for a Facebook group, concerned about all sorts of things not least the potential for such a group to compete with the forum in terms of content. Then, someone started a FB group independently, the group grew and now visitors to the forum are few and fresh content a rarity. You could argue that, as it currently exists, it still remains an excellent resource for owners searching back throug posts for answers to current questions. However, the lack of updated material on the forum is stark, whilst the FB group frequently deals with all sorts of interesting technical questions which remain transitory conversations, with little or no means of maintaining these as a library resource.
Learning from this, the SB Association has an opportunity to set up its own page. It could manage the conversation on there according to its own rules - a suggestion might be that the page is only for social content, pictures and sailing anecdotes; any post which deals with technical questions or potentially forum-competing material to be transferred/linked to threads on this forum and further contributions to the FB post curtailed. It requires policing and there would be no need for that to fall on the shoulders of those who already manage the forum.
I would never set up a page such as the above unless it was something that the SB Association agreed it wanted to do. But, with the status quo, nothing is to stop anyone from setting up their own group and growing it according to their own rules - and then we lose control which has potential consequences for this forum.
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I also am not a fan of facebook. I also do not use it. So, if there was a page on facebook. I would not be viewing it.
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Happy as-is.
No Facebook for me thanks.
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No thanks
This forum is first class why duplicate .I don't use/have [whatever the correct expression is]Facebook .
Frobisher
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I'm not a fan of Facebook and I really like the Forum, it does a great job as a platform for sharing technical detail and other more general ramblings. I'm sure it's a real selling point for experienced boat owners who are considering buying a Swallow.
However, what it doesn't try to do is help sell Swallow Boats to a less experienced audience, but perhaps that's Matt's problem rather than ours?
I remember when I was considering my shortlist of possible first boats I spent around a year browsing around trying to gather as much information as I could. Pictures of Swallow Boats were few and far between.
For Facebook users (+ Flickr, Instagram and Pintrest) it's really easy to post photos from your phone when you're actually out sailing. I suspect the idea of sharing pictures of yourself is anathema to most of us, but it's very different for those under 40. For many of the yoof, if you can't share a photo of yourself doing something you may as well not do it.
I think a more active Facebook presence would help sell Swallow Boats to a younger audience but I'm not sure how many people who are active on the forum would engage with it.
If God had meant us to use the railways he wouldn't have created canals.
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I think Julian has raised a good question and it's one I've also been thinking about recently. Where forums fall down and Facebook is brilliant, is for ad hoc posts "of the moment". For example, somone has a nice sail and simply posts a picture. People see it on their Facebook feed, "Like" it and then its gone. That could happen on a forum but it wouldn't work as well, which is why people don't use forums in that way. For example, we've just come back from a week's sailing from Weymouth to the Isle of Wight and back on our BC26 and there are experinces I would have shared on Facebook that I wouldn't (didn't) post here.
But there are problems with Facebook. First, many people don't use it and a good many of those seem vicerally opposed to it. Second, Facebook isn't great as a forum. I'm a member of a few Facebook groups and it's frustrating that the same questions are asked again and again because previous topics can't be seen in the same way as on a forum. Finally, I think there's a danger that the general popularity of Facebook kills the forum, and from Julian's comments that seems to have happened with the Drascombe site.
Julian's last post does address the second and third of those points. And I think he made a really good suggestion that Facebook posts better suited to the forum could be moderated and closed to comments with a note added that it should be raised on the forum. That might drive more people to the forum, which can only be a good thing.
If no-one uses a Facebook group then it fails and doesn't affect the forum. If it is popular and brings new people to the Association then that must be positive as long as it doesn't replace/duplicate the forum.
We can't get over the issue that some people won't use Facebook, although if Facebook is neither replicating nor replacing this forum then is that a problem? Also, I think it would be straightfoward to have a Facebook feed embedded in this Association website so everyone can view what's happening on FB (if they want) but without visiting Facebook or engaging in the Facebook activity.
I don't have strong views on this but I would like to be able to share my day-to-day sailing anecdotes and Facebook is the right place for that rather than the forum, so I'd support a Facebook community group. But strictly following the approach set out by Julian to ensure it supports the Association website and forum rather than threatening or duplicating it. Those that want to use Facebook can do so, and those with no interest in Facebook don't lose what they currently have in this forum.
Alternatvely, we setup something on this site that delivers some of what you get on social media but that isn't done in forums. I can't think what that could be if we want it to work properly, however I will think about this further. If anyone alse has any ideas then please add them here.
But unless we think of how to make this forum more conducive to the posts typical of social media, then I would support exploring whether a well moderated Facebook group could work.
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I think the key point is finding something that allows you to quickly post a short comment and a picture from your phone. Ideally the photos would then end up on the forum but that's less important.
Personally I'd be far more comfortable using something like Flickr or Pintrest.
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Don't do Facebook. Really appreciate the Forum as it is. Let's not rock the boat.
Michael R
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I'm torn on this because I can see benefits in a FB group but don't want to rock the boat. What I'm struggling to understand is why people who aren't on Facebook are opposed to such a group given that it wouldn't affect this site and they wouldn't have to join the group. Wouldn't FB add to our options without changing or taking away what we have now? And if we're not the first to create a FB group and someone else does and their group replicates this forum then, given the popularity of Facebook, I fear that will be the start of a slow decline for this site.
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I agree, I don't think I'd want to use Facebook myself but I do think it would appeal to some people far more than the forum and need not compete with it in any way.
I suspect the responses in this thread will tend to be from those who are comfortable with the existing forum and therefore don't see a need to change. What's missing is input from the owners who aren't here.
If someone is willing to run a Facebook page in a way that's sympathetic to the different roles of the two platforms I can't see any downside to trying it.
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Well, I did say it would be a marmite thing!
Here’s a case in point. Launched yesterday on the Orwell, cruised round to the Deben for an overnight stop, first of several on current trip.
On the way, bumped into another Drascomber turned BayCruiserer, took a picture. In due course it will end up on my blog, as will this one of dusk on the Deben.
These things are good to share in the moment. FB does that well since, beyond that moment, these things aren’t that interesting and it will disappear down the feed, as new content emerges. On here, it just gets in the way of more substantive discussions.
Those who don’t do FB don’t need to worry. I dislike most of it but it is made much more tolerable by a plethora of boating posts and just about every make of boat is represented on there with active user groups..... apart from Swallows. Even if some don’t enjoy this kind of thing, there are plenty of others that do.
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To be fair I've now looked at the Drascombe Facebook page
https://www.facebook.com/groups/drascombe/about
and the Drascombe Association Website
http://www.drascombe-association.org.uk/index.php
I grudgingly have to acknowledge the Drascombe Facebook site is impressive. The content unfortunately considerably overlaps with the DA website which = double the effort for contributors and readers.
Of the two the Facebook site is, in my opinion, more attractive, easier to read and contribute to. This is a conclusion I did not want to reach because I personally resent Facebook's attempt to take over the web without the inconvenience of managing some of its distasteful content. I notice I'm being drawn to Facebook (Facebook Marketplace V Ebay anyone?). What a wicked world.
So now I'm comparing cream scones (tasty but maybe not healthy) with marmite and combining them is probably indigestible - or is it possible to enjoy both?. Better stop the analogy there but I confess to a dilemma and need more guidance from Jonathan and others.
Matthew
BR20 Gladys
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I just followed Matthew’s Drascombe Facebook link and got this “You must log in to continue.” To me, that’s just as bad as the Drascombe Association insisting that I pay to be a member to see some of their more interesting articles, and that I have to log in to see the photos on their site. When I’ve done the latter, I often get a nannying-type message telling me that I’m daring to look at their site while not a member.
The advantage of this forum is that anyone can look at it, you don’t have to log in, learn the secret handshake or roll up your right trouser leg and *gasp* you can even look at the photos without being spied on.
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You could register yourself with a pseudonym such as Swallowboaty Mcboatfacebook if you want to sample Facebook without revealing your name to Foreign Powers. But I suppose its illegal and Foreign Powers already know more about you than your Mum.
Matthew
BR20 McGladys
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I just followed Matthew’s Drascombe Facebook link and got this “You must log in to continue.”
Matthew copied a link while he was logged in, it points to a page which requires login. This link points to the publicly accessible page: http://www.facebook.com/groups/drascombe/
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I just followed Matthew’s Drascombe Facebook link and got this “You must log in to continue.” To me, that’s just as bad as the Drascombe Association insisting that I pay to be a member to see some of their more interesting articles, and that I have to log in to see the photos on their site. When I’ve done the latter, I often get a nannying-type message telling me that I’m daring to look at their site while not a member.
The advantage of this forum is that anyone can look at it, you don’t have to log in, learn the secret handshake or roll up your right trouser leg and *gasp* you can even look at the photos without being spied on.
The only reason for drawing parallels between the Drascombe Association story and the current situation over here was due to, in my opinion, mistakes being made by the DA in not starting a FB page and noting the opportunity existed here not to make the same mistake. It's disappointing, therefore, to read this post by a respected and long-standing member over here which is not just factually incorrect but involves being unfairly dismissive of our fellow sailors in the DA, many of whom share an affinity with both brands.
Just for the record, the DA has built up an enviable library of discussions through its forum, all of which are free to access by anyone - these are the equivalent of what I see on this forum, only the DA version has been going for longer and, as a consequence, has lots more content. Behind the membership wall, you get a plethora of additional resources, since membership is chiefly about receiving a quarterly journal, these days amounting to around 50 pages per copy and including a wealth of technical advice and sailing reports. Members also have access to pdfs of the entire library of magazines - around 140 of them. Recently, members also received a bonus publication providing a wealth of updated information about their boats, and in its thirty year history, the DA has done this on a number of other occasions. That's not bad for a sub which is less than most people would pay for their Friday night take away. I don't think membership would be of interest unless one happened to hold an interest in Drascombes. Their association, like this one, is run by volunteers doing their best when they could be out sailing, so let's not be condescending about the achievements of the DA. In many ways, there's lots in both brands for the other to admire. And, if they invite you to join, that's because it's in their interests to try and promote the brand and the Association.
In many ways, promoting the Swallow Yacht brand and the Swallowboat Association is what this thread is about. These days, a younger audience accesses the Internet in a variety of ways, FB being one such way. If we want someone to be around, one day, who values our boats when we finally hang up our oilskins, we would do well to keep the brand and the Association relevant to the younger generation.
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Matthew copied a link while he was logged in, it points to a page which requires login.
This link points to the publicly accessible page: http://www.facebook.com/groups/drascombe/
Thanks for the correction Martijn. When I follow your link, I get access to “Discussion” but if I then try to follow any other heading, such as “Events”, I get the message “Create an account or log in to Facebook to continue.”
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Behind the membership wall
I rest my case.
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The idea of uploading a picture whilst sailing a smallish boat seems to me to be doing two almost incompatible things (but then my fingers are stiff these days as I approach a birthday that puts me near 80 than 70). Taken it to it's extreme - who is going to post the first live feed of a BayRaider capsize? Or a BayRaider outsailing a Crabber? Or a BayCruiser 23 being attacked by a white shark? Or a BayCruiser 26 being sailed onto it's trailer?
I see we're part the way there for a like button has mysteriously appeared against each post. Are we going to compete for the most liked post? Will there be a league table of likes?
On a more serious note, the forum does provide (in my view) a rich source of technical information about the Swallow range and their good and not so good points (bloody trailers) which perhaps would be difficult to carry through to a Facebook site. So perhaps there's a case for the Forum to remain the place for those sort of debates and information and Facebook could exist for those with a need for the visual (dare I say it, flashy) and social side of sailing.
Perhaps we should just take the capitalist approach, and have both. Let the market choose. It could be an interesting voyage.
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On a more serious note, the forum does provide (in my view) a rich source of technical information about the Swallow range and their good and not so good points (bloody trailers) which perhaps would be difficult to carry through to a Facebook site. So perhaps there's a case for the Forum to remain the place for those sort of debates and information and Facebook could exist for those with a need for the visual (dare I say it, flashy) and social side of sailing.
It's worth reiterating that Julian's suggestion is that any Facebook group would be actively moderated to ensure there isn't any replication of theis forum. The forum remains "king" but Facebook is an extra non-overlapping resource for those that use Facebook. And it would be irrelevant and in no way detrimental for those that don't use Facebook.
Julian made 2 other points that I think are also worth highlighting.
First, Facebook attracts a different audience. That is obvious from the comments in this topic. I've previously seen comments in this forum asking where the next generation of Swallow sailors will come from. If we have a Facebook presence then we spread the word about Swallows and hopefully attract more owners (perhaps also more younger owners) and more input in this forum.
Second, anyone can start a Facebook group. We're discussing whether to start a group that has a limited remit and redirects technical conversations, etc, to this forum. If somone else starts a group then we won't have that control.
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I’m not sure that it’s our job to be the provisional wing of the Swallow marketing department. They already have their own website, Facebook and Twitter pages, albeit not updated very often.
If you young things want to go off and frolic in social media, and it seems that you do, I suppose that that is up to you. However, unless Facebook is very rigorously moderated (and everyone always starts out with good intentions until life intervenes) it will be a clear dilution of the freely available effort here. And effort there has been, including a number of long technical articles in the library that are free to browse without the aforementioned rolled up trouser leg.
This forum is fortified by the ability to look up virtually any Swallow topic under the sun (they’ve all been covered) using the excellent search facility. Random jottings on social media simply don’t cut it in the same way. But each to his own and I’m sure that Mr Zuckerberg will be very grateful.
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I don't get the "rolled up trouser leg" references. Someone previously pointed out that the Drascombe Facebook site is visible to everyone, including those that aren't on Facebook. I suspect people who aren't Facebook members won't want to view the Facebook group, but it would be available and not hidden or restricted to members only. Only creating Facebook posts is limited to members. Also, Facebook is no place for long articles and that will always be the preserve of this website and, to a lesser extent, the forum.
I suggest we create a site and moderate it as discussed. I'm happy to create the site and be a moderator but it will need more than me. Who else is happy to share the moderation?
We will also need to agree the moderation "rules", which I suggest is something like: FB is for "of the moment" comments sharing news of a trip or a photo or a boat, etc, but posts relating to technical questions, formal events (other than just "I'm sailing in Weymouth tmmr, who wants to join me?") and "wanted / for sale" should all be linked to a forum post (preferably FB linking to the forum post but optionally vice versa).
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I’m sure a number of our Association members who are not FB members have concerns on joining FB because they have privacy concerns and do not know how to configure the account to restrict it to their wants and needs.
Perhaps a quick guide or link to a site could be created to help with this.
How would the “moderator” function work, e.g a post is put on FB that would be more suitable for the association site, does it get assessed before posting, does it then get moved to the association site, perhaps it is a mix of being suitable for both sites, does it get partitioned bye originator and reposted ?.
Who is going to adjudicate FB member request, how do we deal with unwanted trouble causing posts that are clearly made to lower the value of the site.
I have mixed feelings on creating a FB page for SB potential and current owners and it has merit on promoting our boats to a younger audience “ assuming that is our role” and i suppose it is based on the time we give to people who approach us when rigging our boats.
The FB facility will provide the mechanism for posting “outing and holiday” snaps and tales as long as it doesn’t turn it “I’m on the bus “ and “ guess what I had for breakfast” posts which before current association members throw there arms up in horror at the suggestion it’s what younger new members might post judging on many other FB pages.
Peter C
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Hi Peter,
I’m sure a number of our Association members who are not FB members have concerns on joining FB because they have privacy concerns and do not know how to configure the account to restrict it to their wants and needs.
Then they shouldn't join FB. There is no need to join FB just because a SY group exists there.
How would the “moderator” function work, e.g a post is put on FB that would be more suitable for the association site, does it get assessed before posting, does it then get moved to the association site, perhaps it is a mix of being suitable for both sites, does it get partitioned bye originator and reposted ?.
That needs to be decided if/when we have some moderators. I suggest we start with all new posts (not comments) requiring approval. I'm on FB groups like that and it works fine. I doubt the workload will be too onerous.
Who is going to adjudicate FB member request, how do we deal with unwanted trouble causing posts that are clearly made to lower the value of the site.
The moderators. Unwanted posts would be rejected and not published (assuming pre-approval of posts).
The FB facility will provide the mechanism for posting “outing and holiday” snaps and tales as long as it doesn’t turn it “I’m on the bus “ and “ guess what I had for breakfast” posts which before current association members throw there arms up in horror at the suggestion it’s what younger new members might post judging on many other FB pages.
I agree about the pointlessness of posts like that, but I see very little of that on FB and none of it in Groups where I'm a member. For example, I'm a member of a 2CV group and all the posts are pictures of people's cars, pictures of a nice scenic drive on a sunny day, technical questions and cars for sale. I would imagine a Swallow Yachts FB group would replicate the first two of those types of posts but the latter two should only be supported where they link to a forum post. i.e. "I've posted this on the forum but thought I'd share it here too...".
I can't see any downside in a FB group except a risk that if it grows then more people may ask technical questions. It's easy to reject those posts but people may not like that and someone can setup a new group that is more relaxed. I don't have an answer for that but if someone wants to setup a FB group then they'll do it anyway regardless of whether or not we setup a group.
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Imo...
The critical issue is the ready searchability and associated library/archives. This is an invaluable and very important resource, both or new and established users alike.
Some other forums to which i belong have lost much technical valuein their haste to follow the crowd on to Facebook.
Facebook itself is old hat, so my kids tell me, and will doubtless be replaced by another fad soon enough?
Who remembers "Friends Reunited" for example? Arguably an ancestor of faceybox????
Oh, and also very importantly, on here there are no random russian ladies or nigerian bankers who want to be my friends.....and no ads either!
Summary. I can live with both, but PLEASE no Facebook at the expense of this forum.
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I don't get the "rolled up trouser leg" references.
That's information available on a need to know basis only!????
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Absolutely agree Simon.
I should point out though that there are regular spam posts on this forum but they are stopped because all new members posts must be approved.
Coincidentally, I noticed this morning someone has posted a question on the DCA Facebook group that they also posted on this forum, so Facebook is having an effect already.
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About 20 years ago (no, it's nearer 30) I was an active hang glider pilot. I recently found the British Hang gliding FB group. I asked to join, was vetted ( I assume by the moderator (some guys still remembered me - gosh) granted posting rights. So far, I've not noticed any spam or Russian ladies, nor has any contributor been "flamed" so I assume the vetting process works well. The postings have varied between videos of exploits aloft, pleas for help on flying the things, technical discussion about various gliders and (as pilots were grounded during lockdown) some interesting period photographs and a long discussion about how much science there is and was applied to the design of HGs.
Any Swallow FB group would be a closed group (one would hope) that any one could find via search and view. But only members of the group would post. Yes, the postings would be ephemeral, but I suspect users would see and hear interesting exploits of daring do's in and of Swallow Yachts. Yes, it might make us the stealth marketing department for Swallow Yachts - is that such a bad thing?
It seems that we have a willing volunteer to at least start the thing off (albeit asking for some assistance) but, as I said in an earlier post Bring it on - let's see how it works.
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I have created the Facebook group, here's the link:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/swallowyachtsassociation
Julian has agreed to be an admin / moderator.
All member requests and post must be approved. The group's description and rules set out, among other things, that posts must augment / support this website & forum.
I don't expect a massive amount of activity because we're a much smaller community than, say, the Drascombes but it will be interesting to see what develops.
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Thanks Jonathan.
Is it setup so you can at least view the posts without an account? At the moment it seems you need to login to view any content.
I would love to be able to view any posts but would rather not create a facebook account.
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You have to join Facebook to view anything on there. But, that doesn’t need to involve giving away all of your personal details.
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The "Drascombe public group" on facebook can be viewed without a facebook account. Obviously you'll need one to either like a post or to comment.
I would welcome a similar setup for the swallow yacht page.
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The Swallow group is setup as Public and appears to be setup in the same way as the Drascombe Group. But I've also found that Swallow can't be viewed without a FB account whereas the Drascombe group can be. I can't see any settings in Facebook that would affect this so I am at a loss as to why there is this difference. I will keep looking for an answer.
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Thanks Jonathan, much appreciated.
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Just reporting back to the forum on the first (almost) three weeks of the new FB group which now consists of 50 members. So far, there have been a healthy number of posts, consisting almost entirely of pictures of Swallows in various locations around the UK and beyond.
Thank you to everyone who has supported this venture - looking forward to seeing more posts as people continue their summer sailing activities.
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Thanks for reporting back Julian.
I'd love to be able to follow the facebook group but unfortunately without a facebook account you cannot view any of the posts.
Without this restriction the potential audience should be bigger, which would be better for the promotion of Swallow boats and sailing in general.
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Wasn't sure about about a Facebook page for many of the reasons made previously but have really enjoyed the posts and photos of what others are up to in their boats. Good idea.
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Thanks Bob. I'm really pleased to see that the Facebook groupd already has 79 members and most of the names aren't ones I recognise from the forum, so we are reaching a new community. And the posts haven't overlapped with the sort we see on the forum. It's a good start.
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I see that it is no longer necessary to roll up the right trouser leg in order to look at the association’s Facebook page. It is now visible to all, like the Drascombe one. Unlike the Drascombe one, it has so far avoided becoming a chaotic free-for-all.
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Thanks Graham. I hadn't realised the public view had started working so that is good news. Julian and I continue to pre-approve all posts and will control the content, although so far there hasn't been anything inappropriate submitted.
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Just to follow up on this, it's really good to report that the Facebook group now has 157 members! I'm really enjoying the content - lots of fantastic pictures and reports of Swallows in action.
Keep posting!
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Long time lurker, and soon to be new BR20 owner, with the deposit already made. As for Facebook, sorry gents but in my opinion it is a cesspool and time waster. Not to mention YOU are the product. I just wonder why this forum is not enough of a medium to share info, photos and general knowledge?
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Long time lurker, and soon to be new BR20 owner, with the deposit already made. As for Facebook, sorry gents but in my opinion it is a cesspool and time waster. Not to mention YOU are the product. I just wonder why this forum is not enough of a medium to share info, photos and general knowledge?
Fantastic news about another new owner.
There's lots of good stuff on FB alongside the inevitable rubbish. One learns to pick and choose - and of course privacy settings are quite good at ensuring the interesting things bubble up to the surface. It isn't for everyone and every type of post. There's nothing to stop both ladies and gents sharing on either platform, alongside many others such as YouTube.
The point in having a presence on FB as an Association, however, is that virtually every other type of boat is well represented by its own 'group' so it makes sense for our boats to be on there too. 243 Swallow Yachts Association members on FB and growing, since its inception in the summer. They can't all be misguided!
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As expected and despite assurances to the contrary, the number of Facebook posts touching on technical matters is steadily increasing, contrary to the rules of the Facebook group and to the detriment of this forum. There appears to be little or no moderation there. This should be reminding people that answers to most technical questions have already been posted on the forum or in the library, where they can easily be searched for. Or if they haven’t been posted, just ask here and they will soon be answered.
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On the contrary, Graham, there's plenty of moderation over there, which is why participants rarely, if ever, will see spam posts - but don't let that lead anyone to think such attempted posts don’t happen.
The key thing is that posts are relevant to Swallow Yachts. And, let's be clear, the FB rules do not prevent participants from raising or responding to technical questions. In this respect, a light touch works best and it has certainly helped to grow the page. Almost 1000 members on the FB group has to be good news for interest in our boats and I'd like to think plenty have been enticed to sample the forum at the same time and some to sample Swallow yachts and boats! Also, dare I say it, unlike plenty of other FB groups, there has been little if any discord.
Just as it is the choice of some not to participate in FB, others happen to quite enjoy it. I think we have to be understanding of all approaches. Where a discussion raises questions/content which is new, then that's definitely the time to bring those matters over to the forum since the one weakness of FB is that the content isn't easily documented and searched. That's the way I'm trying to manage it, anyway. Sorry if this isn’t how others would like it to be.
If anyone spots content on FB which hasn’t yet been covered on the forum, do please point this out. It's a mark of the depth of quality content on the forum, however, that this rarely happens!
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>>Just as it is the choice of some not to participate in FB, others happen to quite enjoy it.<<
I choose not to participate in Facebook.
Others happen to quite enjoy it.
That's the difference.
Claus Riepe
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I posted this warning in 2020 https://www.swallowyachtsassociation.org/smf/index.php/topic,2045.msg13633.html#msg13633.
let's be clear, the FB rules do not prevent participants from raising or responding to technical questions.
To quote from the SYA Facebook group rules* that everyone is asked to accept before joining:
“2. Posting in this Group - Support the SYA Forum
This group augments the Swallow Yachts Association Forum - http://www.swallowyachtsassociation.org. Some discussions work best in a forum, not on Facebook. Post appropriately.
3. Posting in this Group - Technical Discussions
Technical discussions work best in a forum, not Facebook. Forum posts are easily searched & found in future. Where appropriate, post in the forum. Perhaps post a link to your forum topic on Facebook.”
I don’t see any evidence of even a light touch in recent lengthy Facebook posts about electric motors and gunter rig. One member of the group did try to remind a fairly prolific technical poster about this but was brushed off.
* I had to roll up my trouser leg before I finally tracked down these rules. If you want to see them, you are automatically enrolled in the group. After that, they are invisible. Leaving the group is a much trickier process, which is exactly what I would expect from Mr Zuckerberg’s sticky fingers.
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To quote from the SYA Facebook group rules….
I don’t see any evidence of even a light touch…
Yep, this confirms the rules guide folk towards the idea of using the forum but don’t compel.
No evidence of a light touch probably shows that it is working. If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.
A poster has been encouraged to post on the forum. They choose not to. That’s their choice and I'm pleased we live in a world that allows everyone to exercise this…
Nobody can force anyone into using one forum rather than another. I'm glad that there is a FB group for Swallows, even happier that this is under 'local' stewardship. If we hadn’t set it up, then someone would have at some point, and then the oversight would have been completely out of the control of the SB Assoc. You'll appreciate what has happened over on the Drascombe pages, which now have two competing FB groups, a similar vocal minority of FB dissenters over on their forum and absolutely no means of control by their Association.
Lastly, I really don’t mind (although I do care). If someone wants to take over the admin role for our FB group, that's fine with me. Life's too short! I may be selling my BC20 but it doesn’t mean I've suddenly lost interest in Swallowboats. I still think this is the prettiest craft on the water…or mud!
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Yep, this confirms the rules guide folk towards the idea of using the forum but don’t compel. No evidence of a light touch probably shows that it is working. If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.
Er no, it just confirms an absence of proper moderation, particularly as the rules are somewhat invisible once you’ve joined the group. Technical posts on Facebook beget more technical posts if people aren’t reminded every now and then of what the rules are. If they then persist, that’s up to them.
Nobody can force anyone into using one forum rather than another.
I don’t see anyone other than you talking about force. Surely an occasional reminder of the rules from a Facebook moderator isn’t too much to ask? If it is, then perhaps, as you suggest, some kind Facebook enthusiast would like to take over your role.
I’m wondering why we’ve all bothered to contribute freely on this forum for all these years if our efforts are going to be diluted in this way.
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Have to say as a Facebook "non believer/heretic" I tend to agree with GW.
I see and understand the positives, with instant, almost effortless posting videos/photos of adventures etc...BUT the forum is the undoubtedly the place for technical type questions that create potential reference materials.
Its very sad to see the increasing, ill-disciplined, bleed-across.
It is disappointing that having created the Facebook monster, "we" seem unwilling/unable to attempt to control it?
Surely someone is willing to take responsibility to at least point ALL technical issues towards the forum? I understand that no-one can "force" anyone, but surely we could at least try nudging them?
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Julian is spot on with this. There are lots of ways to communicate and as keen Swallow owners we should embrace all of them, and people should be free to use the medium that they like best. I don't quite understand the anti FB mania. It works for old people like us, the yoof have snapchat and tik tok etc, none of them do us any harm. Live and let post.
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Its very sad to see the increasing, ill-disciplined, bleed-across.
It is disappointing that having created the Facebook monster….
It's really disappointing to read this. There is nothing on the SWB FB page which is remotely monstrous or ill-disciplined. It's just a pleasant group where like-minded people go to indulge in their joy of Swallow Yachts.
…if our efforts are going to be diluted in this way….
I'd say the FB group is a useful place to direct the sorts of trivia which helps maintain the quality of this forum. This place is strong enough to co-exist alongside other social groups. Unlike the transitory nature of FB, this forum will still be there long after any FB posts have disappeared from view. This forum continues to stand head and shoulders above other media in terms of the depth of its content. Have faith in what you and many others have done to achieve this!
Live and let post.
Indeed! Thank you for your support. As previously stated, life is too short to worry about this.
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I'm a FB admin along with Julian. There are 982 members of the FB group and I'll bet none are at the expense of the forum whereas some may know of the forum as a result of FB. I think it's largely co-existing harmoneously and without damaging this forum. I've just been through the past few months' posts on FB. There were a few posts which included technical content and we could have directed people to the forum. Sorry for that oversight. But, these are the minority and most posts are the transient, of-the-moment posts typical of FB. Those don't work on the forum and without FB that type of community chat wouldn't happen. I actually found one comment on FB where someone (not me or Julian) recommended the forum and said to post technical questions there (here) - see below. So, this message is understood and being shared. However, I will endeavour to be more consistent in recommending the forum for technical questions.
If you register for the forum, one of the admins should approve you quickly and then you’ll be able to post. They run the forum in their spare time so it sometimes takes a little while to be approved. They prefer to keep the forum for technical questions as quite a few of the members aren’t on Facebook. There isn’t a charge for joining the association and we’re all really friendly!
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JS,
That's all good. Many thanks.
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JS,
That's all good. Many thanks.
+1
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...but at risk of seeming a little picky...
"If you register for the forum, one of the admins should approve you quickly and then you’ll be able to post. They run the forum in their spare time so it sometimes takes a little while to be approved. They prefer to keep the forum for technical questions as quite a few of the members aren’t on Facebook. There isn’t a charge for joining the association and we’re all really friendly!"
Could we perhaps emphasise that, the reason for Technical discussions being diverted to the forum is so that group knowledge/experience can be captured, and later referenced via searches. Functions that are not always easy nor possible on facebook.
It's not necessarily because some of use don't use Facebook.
As a matter of fact, I am a Facebook (and WhatsApp) user.
Who remembers Facebook predecessors such as Friendster, and that one based on what school you went too*...? Where did all that info go?
The issue is that Facebook is not appropriate for technical and similar postings that create content for (what should be) a less transient, perhaps even semi-permanent, fully searchable reference asset.
"most posts are the transient, of-the-moment posts typical of FB. Those don't work on the forum and without FB that type of community chat wouldn't happen". Agreed and supported.
BTW, I see the Cape Cutter group are finding it necessary to copy across technical info from WhatsApp to their forum.
* A. Friends Reunited.
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….we’re all really friendly!"
I see the Cape Cutter group are finding it necessary to copy across technical info from WhatsApp to their forum.
Some of the comments above are most unwelcoming. Were I to be following advice and bringing my discussion from FB to the forum, reading some of the stuff above, I'd be going straight back from whence I'd come.
The CC19 stance is exactly the way I've been managing the situation. The difference is that this forum is much more extensive, to the point where there seems little point bringing a discussion to these pages where it’s all been discussed before. You guys seem to get irritated enough by FB without crowding these pages with questions which have already been chewed over extensively. That would be real 'dilution' to coin a word…
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I understand some of the more regular contributors here don't get excited about this sort of thing, but I thought it might be worth mentioning that we now have our one thousandth member of the Swallow Yachts Association Facebook group!
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I appreciate this is going to be a bit of a 'marmite' post. Coming to a BC20 after several years with Drascombes, there is a thriving independent Facebook group of Drascombe owners and I just wondered whether there was demand for such a group for Swallows. Appreciate a page already exists for the builders.
The Drascombe group is generally populated by owners posting pictures of their various trips, queries about aspects of ownership, etc. and I'm rather missing seeing similar posts from the Swallow community. I'm not suggesting, for a moment, that the Drascombe approach is right - in fact there are all sorts of things that could be improved. And, returning to marmite, the group has its detractors as well as promotors.
There may be good reasons for the SB Association not having a page of its own for these purposes and apologies for upsetting anyone if this is the case. At the same time there's nothing to stop anyone out there starting and attempting to grow such a group independently. So perhaps it might be good for the SB Association to seize the agenda, and create and maintain a page which complemented the excellent stuff going on here, where people could just post lots of anecdotal trivia/pictures to do with their boats.
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As a new member new owner and advocate of FB I would use a FB site for Swallow Yachts . I agree it would connect to a younger audience and enhance the Swallow Yachts profile .Easy access is key as is ease of use . How does Matt and his team feel about a FB site running alongside their own ?
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As a new member new owner and advocate of FB I would use a FB site for Swallow Yachts . I agree it would connect to a younger audience and enhance the Swallow Yachts profile .Easy access is key as is ease of use . How does Matt and his team feel about a FB site running alongside their own ?
Well, I don't know. Perhaps you could ask, although my understanding is that he was central to the setting up of this ‘Association' as well as its website which exists alongside his own. So I don't see a problem and I would guess he is very pleased that people who buy his boats want to set up a page to express their enthusiasm for the same…