Swallow Yachts Association
Swallow Yachts Forum => Technical => Topic started by: Arthur Dent on 02 Sep 2022, 17:37
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Hey all.
We‘re thinking about buying a used Bay raider 20.
we just had a look at the boat and noticed quite a bit (2-3inches) of water in the two forward floatation tanks and were wondering if that is a common thing on those.
Also if there are any known issues with the BR 20 over time that are worth checking?
Any thoughts are appreciated!
Cheers and have a lovely weekend!
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Arthur,
If Arthur Dent is your nom de plume, then the answer is 42. If that’s your real name, apologies.
There was a thread on this in 2018 which also contains several links to more detailed discussions of the areas that need looking at carefully. The trailer is potentially the weakest link. See https://www.swallowyachtsassociation.org/smf/index.php/topic,1806.0.html.
Could you be more specific about where you found the tanks with the water in them? There are several tanks in the forward area.
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Thank you Graham!
42 - indeed :)
I don't know how I missed that thread! That's very helpful and I'll give it a thorough read :)
With regards to the forward tanks with water in them - it's the two lower forward compartments. You know when you lift the seats, there is an inspection hatch on the forward facing end of the storage compartment. When I opened those hatches, there was a good amount of water in both of them and I just could not see where that might come from.
The other floatation compartments like under the gunnels also looked like they have been wet most of the time, but there are quite a few fasteners through that area, so that makes a bit more sense.
Thanks for any thoughts on this :)
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Mmmm, both my lower flotation compartments at the forward end of my lockers (2010 vintage) are bone dry, so I'm not sure where that water might be coming from. If it was just both the port side chambers, the boat might have been turtled and the port side asymmetric flooding system would have been activated. The port locker would also likely flood and then water could leak through the hatch at the forward end of the locker.
I'm not sure how water would be getting in on the starboard side chambers under this scenario. When I turtled way back when, my starboard chambers and locker stayed completely dry. I didn't.
Anybody else got any ideas?
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Might want to check the seal between the top half and bottom half of the boat. On my BayRaider 20, the seal broke and I spent a while cleaning up the old sealant and resealing/bonding the two half's together again.
If you have a wooden mast, you may want to check for twisting. A number of the boats experienced the mast twisting, my boat also, moving the angle of the dumb sheave.
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Thank you Graham and David for your advice!
It seems like the seal could be the culprit - it certainly doesn't look like it's watertight any more and needs to be redone.
It also seems like this compartment had a repair?
I've attached a few pictures - perhaps you could let me know if there are more issues you see from those.
It seems like there was a repair to the port chainplate area as well ...
Then those 2" screws sticking into the gunnel compartments - they don't seem to have bedding compound on them.
I guess the foam glued into the ballast tank is a modification to reduce the amount of ballast or is that 'standard'.
The corrosion on the bailers ... and there are some spiderweb cracks in the corners of the seats (the teak ply is coming off and needs some TLC or replacing as well)
Thank you for all your help!
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Forgot the pic of the actual forward tank with the water in it (hard to see)
The bottom paint and centreboard also looks like it could do with a strip, sand and renewal?
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Arthur,
It doesn’t look like the boat has had much tlc for a while. I hope that that is reflected in the price.
Some reactions to the photos:
It looks like all the Andersen bailers are internally mounted and therefore nbg. Externally mounted versions (Mini, New Large) work better but only above four knots. I wouldn’t bother with the ones in the front ballast tank under the inspection hatches. They never worked and were in a daft place. I had mine removed and blanked off and one of them re-installed facing the other way next to the aft filler bung. This speeds up tank filling.
An important ballast-emptying modification, which the boat doesn’t have, is three large bungs in the rear wall of the ballast tank, emptying into the sump. One as far out each side as they can go and one in the middle.
No bilge pump in the sump! Another essential modification
Early BR20’s had many many screws fixed into bare GRP with nary a thought about how long they would hold. Not long in some cases.
Early BR20’s had foam in the tanks for reasons that had something to do with the unballasted boat being heavier than originally expected. The foam tended to come loose and clunk about and I got rid of all of mine without ill effect
The teak looks seriously ugly and is nearly always high maintenance. I have artificial teak-effect that looks fairly good and lasts well.
The lamellae in the outboard well look past their best. Some of us have replaced them with home-made removeable gaskets, usually in marine ply.
The trailer looks non-standard and it seems to have only two sets of rollers, which means that the centreboard is unsupported when being trailered. Inspect the area of the centreboard pivot pin carefully for stress damage. Make sure that there are steel brackets stopping either side of the pivot pin from popping out.
I’m guessing that the boat is 2010-vintage or earlier. Good luck!
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Thank you Graham, that is much appreciated.
The boat is from 2007 apparently, so would probably suffer from all the initial weaknesses.
I build wooden boats (for fun, not professionally) and I was a bit - let's say surprised, when I saw all the screws going into the bare GRP to be honest. Especially in the structural bits at the chainplates and the tabernacle area I would not have thought I'd get away with this on my boats without reinforcements.
I don't know how much of this stuff is original and how much is later maintenance - I can't imagine those really long screws sticking into the gunnel compartment are original.
I'm not thrilled by the state of the boat - the sails are also 15 years old and I'm sure they must be quite tired after that time (given how little care the rest of the boat has gotten).
I would do the modifications to the ballast tank you mentioned and add a bilge pump. The seating I'd replace with marine cork or something. Most hatches need replacing and the seal around the outside of the seats.
And I'd strip, fair, sand and repaint the bottom, CB and rudder, perhaps the topsides as well, which would give me a chance to add some bedding compound to the rubstrakes and reduce leakage through those screw holes.
I don't mind putting in a bit of work, it's more the structural bits you mentioned that I am worried, like the CB pivot area (which I don't think is reinforced with stainless steel - so that's something I'd have to do if I can), the mast tabernacle and that chainplate repair job. I don't know how much I can trust these areas.
It seems those first generation boats were not built to a very high standard and have their share of issues, but are priced with the current value of a new latest generation build in mind.
This one is offered at 13k - inc. the Bramber trailer (I don't know if those are any better than the originals) and there's a newish Mariner 3.5hp.
Needing a new set of sails and all those repairs (some of which I think are safety issues) I'd expect I have to spend at least another 5k and a couple of months in the dock to get her into shape.
For that kind of budget I can get a newly restored folk boat with new sails, trailer and electric drive system and still have some change left - or a Beneteau First 211 in top condition.
(Completely different story, but you could even get an IOD yacht for half that price - that seems crazy).
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13 K sounds like a lot for the amount of work required. If the work does not scare you off then I would offer significantly far less than the 13K. I would start at 7K. Whoever owns this boat is going to find selling it, particularly at this time of year very difficult. And your photos, shown to the buyer will reinforce your low bid IMO. Good luck.
You should check out this thread, posted by globetrot on adding a bilge pump: https://www.swallowyachtsassociation.org/?page_id=17
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I agree that £13k sounds like a shed-load of money for such an old boat that needs so much doing to it. No new sails in 15 years strongly suggests neglect.
On the other hand, it sounds like you’re up for a challenge and have boat-building skills that could come in handy.
It’s quite difficult to judge the market because BRe’s come up for sale more frequently than BR20’s. However, 2010 BR20 Kelpie looked very tidy when it was offered at £12k last October. On that basis, if you spent £5k plus your time on a thorough overhaul, you would have spent 50% more for an older boat.
In addition to the photographs, you could show the seller the forum posts about the boat!
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Is this the boat at Tidemill, Suffolk, that is on Apollo Duck?
I wonder if this is one of the three that were the University of Plymouth SC boats?
I looked at them in 2017, before buying my BR Expedition.
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Is this the boat at Tidemill, Suffolk, that is on Apollo Duck?
I wonder if this is one of the three that were the University of Plymouth SC boats?
I looked at them in 2017, before buying my BR Expedition.
I think not, because I bought one of those, and mine is a 2012 boat. It was a little tatty, having been left on a pontoon mooring, but I don't think it was as apparently badly put together as this one seems to be.
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Thanks for sharing your experience and thoughts - it's much appreciated.
The broker doesn't seem to be keen on getting back to us after we pointed out the things above, so I guess we'll have to keep looking.
I'm currently building a strip planked Welsford Pathfinder - but I don't think I'll get her on the water for the next season.
A Bayraider 20 in decent condition would have been lovely and perfect to share road trailers and outboard etc. with.
@Sea Simon - yeah, that's the one in Suffolk. I don't really know much about the owner history before the current seller unfortunately.
Cheers and have a lovely evening!
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Looking at the photos on Apollo Duck:
The trailer is unbraked and is therefore almost certainly on the 750kg limit
The mast is square-ish, which can cause problems with raising and lowering the mainsail
The trailer winch is mounted on an unbraced post, which can suddenly part company with the trailer, with potentially lethal consequences
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For that kind of budget I can get a newly restored folk boat with new sails, trailer and electric drive system and still have some change left - or a Beneteau First 211 in top condition.
(Completely different story, but you could even get an IOD yacht for half that price - that seems crazy).
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I have always liked the Beneteau 211. I would probably go for the Beneteau considering the state of the BayRaider! (Even knowing that the Beneteau will take longer to set up and take down after each sail.)
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I can see your point re the Beneteau...and I like the sound of the Folk Boat too...
But, as I'm sure you are aware, the IOD is a bit apples v pears...good luck with finding a mooring for that, never mind an affordable one (because you won't be trailer sailing), and then there is the need for expensive parts/maintenace/sails to sail to its rating....there have been several attempts to do so hereabouts. ;D
If you are in need of a REAL money pit, sorry I mean wealthy mans toy, there is a beautiful classic International 6m, in quite good condition (Doyle stratis sails, rod rigging etc etc) available locally for about the same price!
Trailer is 1.2 T empty...needs quite a tow vehicle!
BTW you will need a skilled crew of at least 3 even to take it to sea, 5 to race. No passengers! ;)
Expect to spend about the same as purchase cost, annually, if you want to class race.
Great racing tho....
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Thanks everyone,
We'll keep looking for a BR20, in the meantime we found a CB 17'6" Coastal Dayboat in very nice condition, to get us on the water for the time. We won't be racing it against a BR20, that's for sure - my sailing skills would probably not allow me to win in a Laser against a piece of driftwood anyway ...
I'd never dream of actually trying to sail an IOD (but they are pretty)
I suppose the Swallow Boats Raids are not open to other boats, even if we actually could stay within sight of the fleet by the end of the day? ;D