Swallow Yachts Association
Swallow Yachts Forum => Technical => Topic started by: Ron Dierolf on 06 Oct 2009, 02:59
-
I just took delivery of a Bayraider and sailed it for the first time yesterday. I can't say enough about the boat! I had some trouble rigging it as a number of spectators kept asking questions. Where live (western Kentucky, USA) the Bayraider is a VERY unusual boat. I have never seen a ketch rig where I sail and I've been on the water there for more than 30 years. The first sail was in light winds but I was impressed with the handling and sailing ability.
I have a lot to learn about the boat. I have one question for owners of the Bayraider or any Swallow boat. When sailing under jib and mizzen only how are people handling the main. It's a big sail and with the boom and gaff there is a lot of volume to deal with. Any advice? Also, all of the boats I have sailed before have had topping lifts and/or lazy jacks which make handling the main fairly easy. I am considering adding adjustable lazy jacks with the mast attachment points above the highest point of the gaff yoke. The aft line could be used as a topping lift by running it through a padeye attached to the boom and the center line left loose when the sail is unreefed and snugged up against the boom when the main is reefed or dropped. The sail and the gaff could be dropped into the lazy jacks when dropping the main.
Has anyone tried anything similar? Any ideas?
Ron
-
Congratulations on launching your BR Ron. Julian mentions lazyjacks in his posts on the Baycruiser, may be helpful. Also see his website.
The Drascombe Lugger forum also good for information on a similar rig.
You may have done this already, if so, sorry.
Edwin (deposit down on BayRaider 17) Susan 2
-
When sailing under jib and mizzen only how are people handling the main.
Congrats, Ron.
Fair winds always.
I lower the yard and tie it sideways to the mizzen mast, about horizontally over the cockpit. I then use sail ties to wrap in the loose sail and the boom and tie it all to the yard. You end up with a fairly neat lengthy package over your head. The cockpit is not cluttered then and the yard package also serves as a kind of central handrail for the crew in the severe weather you do this in.
Actually, I had a sailmaker punch me an eye into the mizzen sail which helps to tie the yard high enough with the mizzen sail set.
-
Congratulations Ron, you will love your boat.
I have been through all the ideas about dealing with the lowered sail. In the BayCruiser there is a fundamental difference. There is a cabin. with the BayRaider, if all else fails, you can dump the sail, yard and boom in the cockpit and sit on it. With the cabin in the way you can't do that, there just isn't room. I thought of stowing the yard as Claus describes, but again, with a cabin that would mean climbing onto the cabin roof in just the conditions where you would really not want to do that. So in the end we plumped for a solid, Bermudian mast (carbon fibre in two pieces for transport), with a roached mainsail for increased area. We also decided that the sprit boom, which I love, just wouldn't work either as it is so difficult to stow the sail on it. In the end we settled for a conventional boom at the bottom of the sail, which works fine, but you have the extra fiddle of the kicking strap, which the sprit doesn't need. I have rigged lazyjacks which catch the sail and hold the boom up. It means that when I stow the sail I go through the following:
-Loosen the main sheet (in truth I nearly always forget that)
-Loosen the kicking strap
-Tighten the lazy jacks (I can actually haul them right up so the boom is cocked up above standing head level, which is great for motoring)
-Drop the main sail, which comes down under its own weight if I am facing right into the wind, otherwise I may have to grab a bit and yank it down. It all settles on the boom between the lazy jacks.
-Tie on a couple of sail ties just to keep it neat.
Everything happens above head level and the cockpit is empty. I can sail quite happily like this with jib and mizzen.
-
I meant to attach a photo to the last, hopefully I have this time. This shot of Daisy Grace at anchor shows the main sail stowed and lazyjacked up high.
-
I appreciate the help. The sprit boom does complicate the setup of lazy jacks. What I was thinking is an aft lazy jack that could be shackled to an eye on the rear of the boom. This line could be kept snug and could act as a topping lift. The center jack would be left loose until the main is dropped a bit when it could be snugged up. The problem is that this involves two independent sets of lines, two cleats, etc. The type of lines you put on the Baycruiser are ideal but won't work well with the sprit boom. I suppose I could use that system and loosen them when tension on the mainsail leach pulls up the boom.
I hate to go making changes until I know exactly what I want. If there are any other ideas out there I would be grateful.
-
Hi Ron
I do like the sound of Clauses method and may try it on my boat. Meanwhile my way is effective but untidy. I drop the gaff yard and secure it vertically to the mast with a reefing line, disconnect the clew (QR shackle) from the sprit boom and stow the boom in the cockpit, disconnect the tack downhaul (snap hook), grab a handfull of the leech and roll it up tight into a sausage and lash this with the gaff yard to the mast. This leaves a bundle of unsecured sail which I stuff under the foredeck. If I need to raise the sprayhood this bundle has to be moved and secured to the foot of the mast. By the way, I have drilled a small hole in my sprit boom to take a pin to secure it to the gooseneck. This was after I poked my crew in the face with the boom end. I have also fitted a short track to the clew end of the boom which makes it much easier to release the outhaul and disconnect the clew.
Good luck and I hope you enjoy your new boat.
Jeff
-
One odd thought I have had re the sprit boom. Could you fit a Barton Boom Strut to it:
http://www.bartonmarine.com/html/boom_strut.htm
This would stay in place when you lower the sail as the tension in the foot of the sail would keep it there, so you wouldn't need a topping lift. You would need a goose neck that did not pull out...
The strut would press on one side of the sail on one tack, but the boom does that anyway. You could even fit lazy jacks on the non-boom side, going right under the foot of the sail and up to the boom. The upper part of the sail and the yard might fall into these if you guided them.
Just a thought.
-
Thanks!! The Barton Boom strut sounds intriguing. They have a dinghy strut also. I'm going to check those ideas out. The dinghy strut apparently doesn't require any drilling - a big plus as far as I'm concerned. It would not contain the sail as well as lazy jacks but it would be much less complicated and would keep the boom out of the cockpit. A nice middle ground.
Thanks again for the idea.
Ron
-
Conventional boom, roached main, boom strut, lazyjacks - all incompatible with harbourfurling, the simplest, quickest and neatest way to tidy the mainsail from the cockpit.
-
I think Claus is right about the beauty of the simplicity of the Bayraider rig. It just wasn't possible to keep it so simple with a cabin in the way on the Cruiser. Mind you, I fancy the idea of a keel stepped, unstayed carbon mast on the cruiser. That would get rid of the shrouds at least, if you didn't mind the bigger compression post in the cabin...
-
Claus,Ron,Julian,Edwin & Jeff
I was very interested in reading about the methods suggested in managing the main on the Bayraider and
Baycruiser. They are different boats and require different
solutions.
For the Bayraider I agree with Claus. harbour furling or the boom tied to the mizzen seem the best. As he implies lazy jacks, topping lifts etc. just add to the complications.
For the Baycruiser Julians lazy jacks appear to do the job,but what about a sailcover? A traditional sailcover could be fitted either with slots cut to accomadate the lazy jacks or the lazy jack slackend and "parked" close to the mast but this would require a topping lift.
A stack/pack is another solution.
As well as "Iona" our Storm 15, we also have an Eagle 525 sailing cruiser which I sail mostly single handed. With advancing years I found it very difficult to drop and stow the heavy mainsail, which usually resulted in me detaching the boom and dropping the lot into the cabin to sort out later.
Years ago I swore that I would never use lazy jacks after seeing an experienced crew take over 20 mins. to hoist a fully battened main on a 50ft catamaran.
After many years of making stacking mainsail covers for all types of boats (most with positive feedback) I still remained sceptical.
However earlier ths year "I took the bull by the horns" and designed & fitted lazy jacks and a stack/pack to our Eagle 525. It works well in the drive but I have yet to try on the water.
I will keep you posted.
Terry Cross
-
Hi Terry
I am going to get a mainsail cover to match the spray hood. Didn't have it to start with partly for time reasons (I wanted to get on the water) but mainly because I wanted to figure out lazy jack positions etc. The lazy jacks are a bit unsightly but very thin. On the photo below you can just about see where one cuts into the sail where it is too tight, but otherwise they are invisible from any distance. They can catch the top batten on the way up, but it is easy to tug it round to the right side. The benefit of having the whole of the mainsail and boom held up out of the cockpit all of the time is worth it for me. The stack pack idea is neat when the sail is stowed, but I think it would look pretty clumsy when the sail is raised. I like to look up at the pulling sail and the pack on the boom would spoil the view! It would probably interfere with the reefing lines as well. The boom is quite small in section.
Does anyone have ideas for covering the stowed jib and mizzen? I have a extra strip on the jib but I'm not sure if it acts as a sacrificial strip or not. On the mizzen I don't have anything at the moment. I had thought of a couple of zip sided tubes of material which you pushed up the sail from the bottom with a jointed thin tent pole, but haven't got very far with that idea. Mind you, it would be nice to have the need for UV protection next year.
BTW It takes me no more than 30 seconds to raise the main and I can put in a full reef in under a minute, largely due to the lazy jacks holding everything in position whilst I do it. All of that single handed.
-
Hope photo attaches this time
-
Julian
I agree with you entirely. A stack/pack can look unsightly and interfere with the sail set especialy on a loose footed sail. The picture looks great.
Terry
-
I appreciate all of the advice. What I think I will do to start with is add a topping lift. My plan is to mount a padeye on the portside of the mainmast and one on the starboard side. These will be about six inches below the top of the mainmast and above the highest point of the gaff yoke with the mainsail full up. A line will be shackled to the portside padeye, run down and through a fairlead at the aft end of the boom, up to a block attached to the starboard side padyeye, and down to a cleat on the mainmast at at about deck level. When I drop the main I can manually flake the mainsail on the boom while keeping the boom out of the cockpit and out of the way.
My primary question concerns mounting the padeyes on the mainmast. The hollow section of the mainmast appears to start just below the square top section the mast. I'd like to mount the padeyes 6 inches below that area but the mast is hollow. Any advide on mounting the padeyes? I was thinking of using wood screws and expoxy - permanent, but solid. I don't want to compromise the integrity of the mast. However, I want the mount to be solid so it can take the weight of the gaff and the mainsail.
Has anyone drilled holes in the mast? Were there any problems?
Thanks to all of you for the information.
Ron
-
One odd thought I have had re the sprit boom. Could you fit a Barton Boom Strut to it:
http://www.bartonmarine.com/html/boom_strut.htm
This would stay in place when you lower the sail as the tension in the foot of the sail would keep it there, so you wouldn't need a topping lift. You would need a goose neck that did not pull out...
The strut would press on one side of the sail on one tack, but the boom does that anyway. You could even fit lazy jacks on the non-boom side, going right under the foot of the sail and up to the boom. The upper part of the sail and the yard might fall into these if you guided them.
Just a thought.
Julian
Just posted another thread on this article to ask for opinions on the Barton Boomstrut, did you ever fit this device, or indeed has anyone else, any opinions on ease of install, does it work, problems etc.
Peter
-
Hi Peter
I never fitted the strut. In the end the BayCruiser has been fitted with a conventional boom at the bottom of a Bermudian mainsail. I have lazyjacks to either side, which hold it up and gather the sail. I have wondered about fitting a boom strut just to keep the boom up, but I think I would always use lazy jacks so the strut would be rather superfluous. But it might be a solution for a sprit boom. I don't know that anyone has tried it.
-
Hi, Ron.
This is a duplicate of a post from some months ago elsewhere on the Forum. I thought it might help - despite the lousy drawing!
(Note: If you dont want to drill holes in your mast, fix a small block up there using a selvagee-type knot. If made with tape rather than cord it wont slip.)
--
Here is the system I use on the lug rigged Four Sisters. It acts as a topping lift, lazy jack and courtesy flag halyard all in one.
Indgredients:
• one long bit of string
• one short bit (you might want 2 short bits and hang the expense),
• bullnose screwed to the mast head,
• small snapshackle ,
• turning block
• jamb cleat,
All were rescued from failed projects - oh – except the bullnose. I blagged that off Matt when he wasn’t looking.
Method:
1. Fix the bullnose to the masthead. (You could use a small block- but why get complicated?)
2. Tie the long bit of string to it and run it down to the snap shackle fixed to the aft end of the boom.
3. Run it back up, through the bullnose, then down again to the turning block at the base of the mast and finally, aft to the jamb cleat.
On Four Sisters the yard is longer than the boom so that is all that is needed to control it when hoisting or lowering. The string marked ( D) is a highly technical and expensively engineered addition to stop the lowered sail catching the wind or falling off the cabin top into the sea when lowered.
Use the short string(D) to tie a bowline or a rolling hitch around (C) – it shouldn’t be tightly fixed , it needs to find its own level - then pull forwards until you have made enough of an angle. Then tie it off at the forward end of the boom. You might want to use tiny snap shackles or stainless steel rings instead of the knots if you cant stay out of the chandlers. For a sprit boom sail use a duplicate (D) string the other side of the sail with its loop or shackle at (A). ( I don’t need to stand the extra expense of this as the mast is there to catch the sail for me.)
Come to think of it, on a sprit boom sail it might work better if the (D) strings are fixed to the base of the mast. That way when you remove the sail and boom all the string can be hauled up tight against the mast to stop it getting snarled up when you drop the mast.
Hope this helps.
-
I have now installed a double topping lift on my BayRaider, similar to Tony's diagram above but I have so far skimped a little on the string.
My topping lift starts from a lacing eye at the top of the mast on the starboard side, down through a padeye at the end of the boom, back up to a cheek block at the top of the mast on the port side and then down to a cleat at the bottom of the mast. Picture below.
In addition to supporting the boom, it guides the yard down when this is lowered, making it much easier to flake the mainsail on top of the boom and keep the whole mess off the cockpit sole. Scandalising the mainsail is simple. It might even make mainsail reefing a little less chaotic although I have not tried this yet.
I might eventually go bananas with the string and install lazy jacks. However, I need to figure out how to attach the string on the port side of the boom where the foot of the mainsail is in the way.
I had a problem keeping the other end of the boom attached to the gooseneck when I was faffing about with the mainsail in strongish winds. This has been solved for me by Swallow Boats drilling a hole through the boom and gooseneck pin so that a drop nose pin can keep things in order. This is the same arrangement as on the BayRaider Expedition. Photo below.
-
Graham
The foot of the mainsail does make it difficult for the lazy jacks on the port side of the boom, i cleat of seperately both sides of the boom lazyjacks to seperate cleats on the mast and each sides attaches to the under side of the boom on small stainless eyes. when sailing the port side can be eased to allow the foot to set properly and also not to disturb the shape of the filled sail, the starboard side eased just for the latter. A seperate topping lift supports the boom when i drop the main, having lazy jacks both sides of the main helps to tame the beast before i put some sail ties on. Once the main is dropped and the tack taken of the reefing hook the lazy jacks can be tensioned against the sail.
I like the topping lift arrangement you describe but as part of the reduction of string down the mast and more to get tangled when raising the mast i now have it permantly fixed two parts up the mast with a snap hook on the other end to clip into an eye on the end of the boom. I'm considering making it a little longer so i can use a clam cleat on the boom which means it's tight and the boom is supported or loose when the main is taking the boom but ready to adjust from near the helming position to take the boom before i drop the main.
What problems does the boom fitting you show overcome, it does look more the business than my spring snap hook and spinnaker bracket i have on my Bayraider.
Peter
-
What problems does the boom fitting you show overcome, it does look more the business than my spring snap hook and spinnaker bracket i have on my Bayraider.
Hi Peter,
I found that the stronger the wind when I was trying to set up the mainsail (especially fiddling around with the outhaul), the less the heavy wooden boom wanted to stay attached to the gooseneck, causing much shouting and cursing. Possibly I was doing things in the wrong sequence. Anyway, the drop nose pin is a simple way of keeping the front of the boom in order when I am occupied at the other end.
Thanks for your comments on the lazy jacks. They are a definite added convenience when cruising single-handed and I am not concerned about windage in those circumstances (which is most of the time). I shall need to make them adjustable if I install them and having separate arrangements for each side is a good idea that I had not considered. I also want to make sure that I can easily dismantle the whole lot (and any other cruising refinements) when I do Sail Caledonia next year....