In Claus Riepe s "SUZUKI 2.5" thread – (a discussion of suitable engines for the BR) - it is suggested that electric propulsion isnt really practical as yet. Im not sure that the problem is in the technology (or lack of it ) I think perhaps its the demand for suitable applications thats lacking. Once mass production, economies of scale and the threat of fuel tax as a cure for Global Warming make hybrid and electric CARS more desirable, perhaps there will be spin off technology suitable for small boats.
Available NOW are:-
*briefcase sized generators
*efficient and powerful electric motors
*computer controllers for battery and charge management
*decent batteries – unfortunately either too heavy or too expensive
*shore power – many only 13amp rather than 50 amp so slow recharge times
*battery charging by tow vehicles when trailing to launch sites
A great deal could be done with the above by a half decent engineering firm that wasnt frightened of salt water or bankruptcy. ....but would I put MY money into such an enterprise?
Many electric boat fans seem to think that 3 hours at full power is good going. Not me! Especially not if it takes all night on Economy7 to re-charge. What mass of battery would be needed to hold enough charge for a week or two away from the mooring? (My CBL sails best in a wind with either 90kg of lead or a fat bloke lying in the bilges. 90kg of batteries instead will be no hardship but, somehow I think it might not be enough!)
What of the (so called) alternative technologies,then?
Most,if not all, small sailing boats spend more time on the trailer or mooring than they ever do motoring. Surely we can do something creative with sun, wind and wave power * during this down time?
Why not have all three generators built into your mooring buoy and simply plug in after a days sailing? Could you not store charge in batteries in the mooring buoy for use/transfer when you tie on? Would this provide enough juice? It would save lugging the batteries off to the nearest 3 pin socket every night.
Would it be possible to take the mooring buoy/ charging unit away with you to the next mooring? That would save on storage capacity if you want to be off on your travels for a couple of weeks.
*Solar cells have improved recently – and become relatively cheaper.
Wind generators (fan type) tend to have too many moving parts, needed in order to face the wind. What happened to the vertical axis type?
Wave power – the only application for small boats I have seen is a pump hung over the side using air pressure and valves to empty the bilges as she rolls.
Was it General Motors or EverReady that suppressed the patents on electric vehicle technology in the sixties? Perhaps Fiat might think more to the future!
Annoyed at the unreliability of my 4hp petrol outboard motor, I would like to examine the possibility of a conversion to electric propulsion.
Requirements:
*
Totally reliable – switch on and go.
*
Marinised and water-proofed.
*
Large diameter, slow revving, weed-free prop. Easily replaced in event of breakage -no sheer pin.
*
Remote throttle and steering an option.
*
Remote batteries an option
*
Enough battery capacity to run for at least 4 hours per charge at 5 knots – minimum, even against wind and tide, giving a theoretical range of 20 NM. (My 4 hp petrol outboard pushes the boat – 300kg of Cardigan Bay Lugger and camping gear - at about 6 knots)
*
Physical mass of batteries needed not to exceed c. 80-90 kg – preferably much less.
*
Batteries should be easily transportable and removeable for charging ashore – no individual element of the system to weigh more than, say, 15-20kg.
*
Batteries fully recharged in as small a time period as possible, say 4 hours tops.
*
Option to rapidly charge batteries in situ using marina shore power, or small, on-board petrol generator.
*
Option to trickle charge with solar or wind power while on a mooring or while being trailed to new launch site.
*
Initial purchase price of system to be less than £1,000. (Ha Ha. Wipes tear from eye..)
*
Battery life to be at least 1,000 cycles.
*
Annual maintenance cost (ex-batteries) to be zero.
Having seen Mini Kota trolling motors and Torqueedo outboards in action I'm not totally convinced that they are up to the challenge.
Can anyone suggest possible solutions?
Hi Tony
It seems that we have been thinking along the same lines.
I have a 18ft sailing cruiser (Eagle 525) with a 4hp petrol outboard fitted in a well which works very well. The problems I have are when sailing and manoevreing.
When sailing the outboard well causes so much turbulance as to take 1.5 to 2 knots off the speed.
I cannot adjust the engine to run slow enough to manoevre in tight places.
After successfully using the electric outboard on Iona for the last few weeks I got to thinking it could be the
the way to go on the Eagle.
Here are some first thoughts (not Solutions) based on your list of requirements.
As I am more practical than technical some of the ideas may be "way out" How do you convert LBs thrust to horsepower? Do you use a Shire or a Shetland?
Motor
I think the most sensible way is to buy a motor "off the shelf"
The largest appears to be 86lbs thrust. Not marinised. (max boat wt. 1900kgs).
The largest seawater one is a 44lb thrust. Is this powerfull enough?
The replacement props are cheap (£20) and easily replaced but do have a sheer pin.
Remote
The throttle is a simple electro mech. switch which could easily be removed and resited or duplicated for dual control, wiring (including supply) through a caravan type plug.
Some motors have a remote foot operated throttle
Steering
I was thinking of leaving the engine in a fixed position and steering with the rudder.
As you suggested earlier a "push me pull me" cable could be fitted. Probably to the tiller.
Batteries
These I know very little about
You could leave some of your lead ballast out to compensate for the weight of the batteries.
The one I use on Iona is 120ah, about 20kg, stored and carried in a bag with a shoulder strap (an old cooler bag)
For the Eagle I am thinking of a pair of smaller ones.
I shall also carry my suitcase generator, which seems to be a good idea as submarines have been doing it for years
Hope this helps regards Terry
Hi
You both might want to read the Nov/Dec copy of Water Craft magazine which has an article on the cirrus daysailer. This is a very attractive 20 ft daysailer with an electric auxillary saildrive from a company called Sillette. Also has a folding prop for when you actualy want to sail!!.They claim 4-6 hours at 5.5 knots.
The unit is obviously designed as a through-hull installation but i dont see why it couldnt be permenantly fixed into a modified outboard well.
I've no idea regarding batteries, cost etc but they may be the people to talk to rather than embarking on a winterlong design and development program......give me a call when you've both got it working and i'll come for a test sail. :)
Sillette sonic saildrive link http://www.sillette.co.uk/elect_saildrives.pdf
Has anyone considered using a fixed prop like this to generate a charge whilst sailing?...I would have thought you could recharge your cells through the motor pretty quickly on a good lengthy broad reach..or...even better...whilst moored overnight in a tidal channel..... or a river.....or whilst towing down the motorway at 80!!!!
I do not think the perfect electric motor is anywhere near here yet or we would all know about it. There are systems which drag the prop to spin the generator, but they slow your boat down and are not that effective. I think you need a fairly heavy boat to make them work. Battery technology is the other killer. It was mother nature's joke that the best element for storing electrical energy is lead. Why didn't she choose aluminium? She must hate boats...
There are ideas of fixing the actual motor unit, which is really quite small, to a rudder blade. Then all the controls you need are the tiller and a forward and back switch. The Lithium ion batteries seem best for storage (give Mother Nature her due, lithium is even lighter than aluminium, maybe she does love us after all) but they are really expensive at the moment for the size a boat needs.
Mind you, I have so much grief from outboards that I expect that if I got an electric one, it would just electrocute me each time I tried to start it.
Browsing through electric outboard sites I came across this one which displays all the technical info. I think you will find it interesting.
http://www.floveroutboard.co.uk/outboards.html
Terry
PS Try the "Buy on line/choozamotor" Tab
Thinking further, Torqeedo may be more advanced than I had realised. I have just been looking at their web site and the bigger Cruise models seem to have a lot going for them:
http://www.torqeedo.com/en/hn/products/cruise-r.html
On my boat, the batteries may not be so much of a problem. I carry 400kg of water ballast, so a great chunk of that weight could be given over to batteries. A problem would be loss of variable ballast but I tend to sail with a full ballast load most of the time, and you would still have some water to chuck out.
The second problem is that the prop is big, 300mm diameter. This would not fit through the current outboard opening, but that could be solved with a saw and some epoxy.
Apart from cost (they are expensive) the big problem I see is how do you recharge the batteries? I keep my boat on a swinging mooring, so shore power is no good. Could solar panels really do it? What sort of area would you need?
I still find a problem with looking at all those solar panels, banks of heavy batteries, hours of recharging, huge cost and then looking the 12 litre petrol tank which would probably take me 200nm and take 5 minutes to refill at the fuel barge. I still don't think electric power is there yet if you sail on the sea like I do.
Hi, Electric Folk.
(Er...Sorry. Didnt mean to invoke Steeleye Span....)
Paul;
Yes, I saw the Cirrus article ....and was impressed enough to contact www.Bellman.nl - the manufacturers- to look at their range of motors.
It seems that a suitable motor for my boat would cost 3-4,000 Euros - gulp - then a dirty great Lithium battery would cost about the same. Then the prop and transmission - and then the charge controller ....and then....and then...
I was somewhat taken aback by the mounting cost and (foolishly) mentioned the Torqueedo being only (ONLY? Good Grief!) a thousand pounds.
This was the e-mailed response:-
"Our products you can't compare with Torqueedo, with all respect, we are producing Propulsion systems to use every day, also professional.
So we don't use Plastic and we don't use a drilling machine motor with some plastic toothwheels to reduce the propeller speed.
Our motors producing Torque straight on the shaft and we are using Stainless steel and seawater resistant aluminum etc.
Again with all respect we are producing Propulsion systems in a complete other range."
Ouch! Well, Im sure they are right, but this is early adopter money, innit. Unfortunately I dont have the cash to join this group...in fact wouldnt bother about electrics at all if my professionally serviced, petrol filtered, greased and pampered 4 stroke could be relied upon not to let me down at the crucial moment. (Who ever heard of a modern Yamaha, Suzuki or Honda car or motorcycle stuck at the side of the road because of a blocked carburetor jet? Whats the matter with these guys!) Use the things every day and they can be fine, perhaps, but the point is that we DONT. Used infrequently and they contravene the Sale of Goods Act. They are not fit for purpose!
If it turns out that I can only afford a glorified egg whisk over the stern, so be it......so long as the damn thing works when Im caught in a 3 knot tide with no wind!
Well. Thats got THAT off my chest!
Julian;
Yes, charging will be a big pain... and range is an issue... but wouldnt you rather have a reliable 10 nMiles (if, indeed, these electric systems ARE reliable) than to be caught out unexpectedly?
Terry;
Thanks for the http://www.floveroutboard.co.uk/outboards.html link. £250 for a salt water 55lb thrust motor is certainly worth a look. Same as a 2hp petrol motor or the Torqueedo travel. (60 days to work it all out before VAT goes back up to 17%)
Has anyone seen these motors in action?
Cheers!
Tony
Just going back to this electric motor thread. I was quite taken with this image from the Woodenboat Forum. The poster said the best bit was moving around with apparently no means of propulsion
It's probably quite natural that topics in one part of this forum converge from time to time on other themes elsewhere. That is by way of preamble, because I shall be mentioning the BR17 (current hot topic in the 'General' section), and also because I'm not sure how strictly 'technical' my contribution is. I want to suggest that better things, in some circumstances such as running out of basic motive power (wind), are not necessarily electric. This is a variation on the 'wooden topsail' theme.
I learned to sail in the Colne Estuary, and am old enough to have watched, as a small boy, the dwindling post-war fleet of working Thames barges, most of the time still under sail. A sight for sore nautical eyes was the way bargemen would handle the open boats - up to 16 ft long, clinker-built, and certainly much heavier than a Swallowboat -which the barges used as tenders. These boats were sculled with a single (straight-bladed, obviously) oar in a notch in the transom, and both the speed and the manoeuvrability achieved had to be seen to be believed.
Some years later, as a teenager in the 50s, a friend and I set about learning how to do this (actually in Gorran Haven in Cornwall). To start with it was infuriating - the oar kept jumping out of the notch: then quite suddenly the knack came (like riding a bike), and with a bit of practice one could belt along (relatively) and also manoeuvre in tight places in harbour. The movements of the oar handle involved are difficult to describe, but essentially it is a figure of eight with subtle twists the while. Great fun and most effective.
I haven't done it for years, but believe the knack would still be there. One can't scull a double ender (which rules out my Storm Petrel and all the Storms), and I doubt whether one could scull round or alongside a mizzen mast (the 'tiller' element would be hampered). The Trouper would probably be beautiful to scull. So would the BR17, except that Matt's drawings suggest, and I suspect all you Bay- and Sea- afficionados assume, she will be ketch rigged. You're all obviously keen on mizzens for good reasons which Claus, among others, has extolled in these pages. It's outside my experience, so I can't comment. However, let me so provocative as to suggest that a sloop-rigged BR17 could be sculled back to port when the wind drops.
All is not lost, ketch-wise. One needs a relatively long oar, leading to stowage problems? A case for a two-piece oar loom? Or - and this is my idea-to-be-patented-and-then-the patent-given-to-Matt - the mizzen mast of your BR17 could double as an oar loom-and-handle, and once the mizzen has been stowed and unshipped, could screw into a suitable blade (2 1/2 ft long, easily stowed), making up an oar for sculling with no obstacle in the way of the notch in, or oarlock mounted on, the transom. Problem solved, and the best of both worlds?
Electric outboards - who needs 'em?
I'm interested in sculling as I don't think the dimensions of the BayCruiser would allow easy rowing. There is no need for the sculling notch to be central, and often it isn't. Having it off to one side makes it easier to stand alongside the oar. It is easy to compensate for the slight off-centredness by a stronger compensating stroke. You can scull a double ender just as easily, with an oarlock screwed somewhere at the back of the boat
The other answer is to go the whole hog with a Chinese Yuloh. Storing the oar could be a problem, but maybe along the side deck? I would be intrigued to try one.
Hello Michael
I trust your move went according to plan.
Sculling? In double ended gondols they do it standing up.
Electric outboards - who needs 'em?
I did last Autumn on "IONA". Up a lazy river,good company,sunny day,no wind,sails furled,motor on tickover, no noise to disturb the wild life,glass of wine in one hand,tiller in the other.
Who could ask for anything more?
Terry Cross
Julian, thanks for your erudite contribution on sculling - you obviously know much more about it than I do! I am thrilled with the idea of sculling a double ender, didn't know you could. Distinct possibilities there. For various reasons (mainly rowing position vis a vis daggerboard case position) rowing a Storm Petrel is problematic, although she skims along under oars. Sculling now, that IS an idea. And where can I get info about a yuloh? I recall an article in Water Craft about it - the writer made his a functional work of art, as I recall.
Incidentally, if this sculling thing continues, maybe we should start a new thread?
Terry, yes thanks, the move was relatively straightforward: AND come the Spring and some quite minor building work, I will have a much better workshop!
PS Lesson 43 1/2 - before you bother people on the forum with a question, google it and you'll likely get an answer. I googled yuloh and it will take me a while to digest the wealth of information which magically appeared (including on sculling).
All I did was google sculling and yuloh! I have never sculled sucesfully in my life. (I earn my living lecturing convincingly on subjects I know next to nothing about.)
Quote from: Julian Swindell on 10 Dec 2009, 22:27
... I have never sculled sucesfully in my life. (I earn my living lecturing convincingly on subjects I know next to nothing about.)
Is this confessions time?
If so, I better confess too: Both above points, come to think of it. And not convincingly mostly. :-[
Rowing the Four Sisters is handy at times but nothing you would want to do for fun in a wind or tide. Sculling over the stern – useful in a confined space where you cant get the oars out – is even less fun per kJ of energy expended.
Had to row her 5 miles back to port in the Ionian this summer. Engine dead (again) and no wind to speak of – and getting dark.
It was not fun.
It was not even Healthy Exercise.
It was hard graft of the bone-grinding, blister-tearing, sweat-blinding variety ....and if thats what you like, well, good luck – but pass me the ignition keys, ta very much.
Attempts to go electric next spring have ground to a temporary halt. Can't find anything available to replace a small petrol outboard at a realistic price. Bellmann, Sillette and a couple of other firms have viable systems available - but aimed at larger boats than mine and intended as built-in, permanent fixtures.
Just what you dont want as a trailer-sailor.
The Electric Lugger is still on the cards for next year, if only as a backup for the Yamaha. The saltwater Flover seems the best buy of the trolling type motors but I don't fancy gluing it to the rudder - lose a knot at least when sailing. Some kind of out-rigger is the most likely option as I dont fancy lugging the Yamaha about either, especially not when in a situation dire enough to need back-up power ASAP. Biggest expenditure will probably be batteries and charger. Even a 100ah battery will not give me more than 10 miles range so I think that, like Grannys smalls, we will need one on, one off and one in the wash. i.e. back on shore being charged. This means expensive Lithium cells to prevent the onset of a double hernia. Either that or a small petrol generator - but then I'm back to putting my trust in untrustworthy technology, using up valuable cabin space and generally making myself unpopular in an otherwise peaceful anchorage.
What is to stop the Sillette saildrive electric unit being used as an outboard, fitted on a hinged plate? I have just been looking at the sizes on their website:
http://www.sillette.co.uk/elect_saildrives.pdf
The total unit looks no bigger and not much heavier than my current outboard and I have a great big hole in the bottom of the boat for it to go through. It doesn't weigh much more than the outboard. Batteries are always a problem, but the BayCruiser carries 400kg of water ballast 90% of the time. If you were on a mooring, you could just replace a great chunk of that with battery. You would need to be able to get them out for towing if you wanted to use an unbraked tailer.
The problems I see are how to charge the batteries without taking them out of the boat. I think the best way might be to book into a local marina for the odd night and just plug them in. If I am taking anyone out overnight in Poole Harbour, we often spend one night in Poole Quay marina, just so we can enjoy the fleshpots of Poole for a night. Can you recharge a couple of big batteries over one night? I have no experience of this.
Tony, Have you worked out why the outboard proved to be so unreliable?
My thoughts on the Battery/electric drive is that high performance batteries can be just as difficult to maintain in 100% condition as mechanical motors. This is all the more pertinant if you only use them in emergency. Am I to assume you are a battery engineer? If so please ignore this post.
Hi, Edwin.
Outboard problem seems to be petrol starvation - blocked jet, maybe. This despite regular servicing and filtering all petrol before use. The machine typically will run perfectly for days - even weeks - at a time, then slow down and stop while in use for no apparent reason. Often it will sulk for a couple of days and refuse to start despite anything I do and then, next morning, no doubt feeling well rested and in need of a little change of scenery, it will start first pull and pretend that nothing has happened - until the next time it packs up. Infuriating and potentially dangerous, hence my interest in Torqueedos, Flovers, Kenwood Chefs and egg whisks.
No, I am not any kind of engineer (although I did have a No.15 Meccano Set and a Mammod stationary steam engine as a kid in the 1950s - does that count?), but the newer Lithium batteries seem pretty bomb-proof compared to small internal combustion engines and even lead/acid glass mat batteries are ok if you dont have to lug em about. The major disadvantages seem to be that light weight = heavy expense and, of course, how do you recharge the damn things when miles from the mains? Solar power needs too much area and wind power needs a dirty great noisy thing on a stick. Both are expensive bits of kit and both are something else to get in the way on a small boat and eventually go wrong.
The 'Keep It Simple,Stupid' guys are yelling OARS! OARS! by now, and quite right, too - but you cant row a cabin boat against wind and tide. At least, I cant.
The electric motors available at the moment seem to be well up to the task of powering a small (or not so small) boat but I dont think batteries are the answer. Perhaps fuel cell technology needs to be developed a tad more - or someone needs to perfect a pocket sized fusion reactor - before anyone who is not based at a Marina can power up an electric boat for more than an hour or so. I think I will trade in my outboard for an old Seagull. They NEVER go wrong, or so am told!
Tony, don't go Seagull. Whilst other engines set out to drive you mad, Seagulls actually try to kill you. Their proponents will always tell you how easy they are to work on. That should tell you something...
I have used Seagulls in the past and count myself lucky to still be alive with both arms more or less intact.
If you don't hear anythng more from me it is because the "Friends of the Seagull" have found and terminated me.
Tony, another thought that came up in conversation, batteries are valuable and attractive items and may be stolen.
I have used the small Seagull and the Silver Century model. No problems, but like any rotating machinery they need to be treated with respect. They are also noisy and smelly and leave a trail of oil on the water. I do remember the handbook reminding us that voices carry over water better than the engine noise. So refrain from commenting on people in other boats or on the bank.
If it was a blocked jet in your motor it should be easy to clear. I am not convinced that is what it is. It is unlikely it would clear itself while sitting idle. I would not like to row any boat 5 miles, unless I had planned to do it. After lots of training. Good luck.
Has anyone been to the London Boat show to see the new BayCruiser 23? I was there on Sunday (it was very quiet and no one was going out on the external pontoons). The big BayCruiser has an electric sail drive leg. Solid Bronze with a folding prop. I shall be interested to hear how it works in practice. It is non retractable. The decks are beautifully laid Douglas fir. I shudder to think of me stomping around on my boat with Poole Harbour mud all over my feet and a weedy anchor on the foredeck. I don't think timber decks would suit me. But they look beautiful.
Yes, I was there on Sunday and I saw her too.
Beautiful!
I was there yesterday, Tuesday, she did look good, I asked about the beautiful deck and Matt said they were trying out test patches of coating to see what protection would be best. The show was very quiet. The last time I went was around 1972 at Earls Court, it was heaving then.
Hi,Guys.
Re- BC23. Did you get any photos of that electric drive? Is the leg protected from grounding in any way?
Julian. Did it look as if it could be mounted to tilt in an existing outboard well - as you suggested earlier?
(PBO quote the price of the BC23 as 30-odd thousand quid. I supposed that a big chunk of that was the drive and batteries. Perhaps the deck helped a bit, too.)
I didn't get any photos of the electric drive. It was solid bronze, with a folding bronze prop. The motor wasn't in place. I should think it cost as much as my whole boat. Matt said it finished level with the bottom of the keel, so was fairly well protected. It doesn't tilt, but it possibly could be made tiltable. I would be concerned about drying out on it as the whole back of the boat could be held up on it. I don't know if the PBO price included the electric drive or the Douglas fir deck. Or the laminate sails and dyneema rigging, which weren't on show. This boat is going to be quite something when it is finished.
Hello all, my first post here, although I've been looking in from time to time over the past few months. I've been playing with electric propulsion for a fair while now and am in the final stages of developing a low power propulsion system, suitable for an electric version of Winsome.
I took one of my prototype brushless units over to Swallow Boats last Autumn and Nick and I drove around the estuary for ten minutes or so with it driving the Storm 15 at hull speed, in calm water, on around 350 watts. Winsome needs much less than 100 watts for river cruising, so my plan is to have solar charging that will keep the battery topped up whenever (if ever....) the sun shines.
Tony started this thread with a "wish list", which is exactly how I set out to design a complete system about 10 months ago. My wish list was:
At least 6 hours endurance on battery power
Cruise at 4kts on rivers and other inland waterways
Ability to solar charge at as high a charge rate as practical without spoiling the look of the boat
Total system efficiency (from charge to thrust) greater than 70%
Propulsion system weight as low as possible
Battery cycle life at least 1000 cycles
Zero battery maintenance
Low battery hazard rating (no toxic materials or risk of fire)
So far, I have a sealed battery system that provides just over 1kWh of usable power (enough for around ten hours of cruising at the expected power level) in a sealed box that weighs 11.6kg. It uses Lithium Ferrous Phosphate batteries, that are very safe, unlike other some other lithium chemistries. Cycle life should exceed 2000 cycles and calendar life should be around eight to ten years.
Cruise speed power is determined by the hull resistance; as Winsome was designed to do around 4 kts with only pedal power (probably around 100 watts) it was a near-ideal hull to use.
Getting good system efficiency is a great deal of work though. Ordinary boat props are fairly poor, they waste around 30% or more of the power you put in to them. The answer to this problem was to make a prop, but it turns out that the thin, high aspect ratio, blades are superb weed catchers. The way around this problem was to make the prop blades fold, so that if a bit of weed gets caught the throttle can be eased, the blade folds back and the weed (hopefully) slips off. The prop design I have now (12" diameter, 10" pitch, 700 rpm at full power) should be around 84% efficient, just about as good as it's possible to get with a practical prop.
Next, I looked at motor efficiency. Electric motors are generally pretty good, but the best are, without a doubt, the brushless permanent magnet ones developed for high powered model aircraft. These are tiny, yet deliver upwards of 6kW (8hp) in a package around 3" in diameter and weighing about 1.5kg and cost around $100 or so (take a look at this one, for example: http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=5142&Product_Name=Turnigy_80-100-B_130Kv_Brushless_Outrunner_%28eq:_70-55%29). I opted for a much smaller motor of the same type, one rated at 2800 watts, then altered it by fitting internal position sensors and changing the wiring from delta to star (these are three phase machines) so that I could run it on a better type of speed controller. The big advantage of under-running one of these motors is that it's efficiency improves, as the copper losses are very low when it's run at low current. My motor now has losses that range from just over 1 watt at idle speed to around 12 watts at full power (200 watts), so is always running at better than 94% efficiency.
To drive the big prop slowly (for good efficiency) I needed to reduce the motor speed. Changing the wiring from delta to star dropped it's peak rpm to 56% of the original, so that the motor now runs at about 1500 rpm at full speed. This was still too fast, so, after playing with toothed belt drives, chains etc I ended up buying an expensive 2:1 reduction right angle gearbox. To my horror, I found that the gearbox absorbed around 14 watts on it's own, so I had to modify it. I removed the top oil seal (oil seals soak up around 4 or 5 watts each) and then removed all the internal grease. The gearbox is now filled with oil and is sealed to the drive leg, like an outboard, so has no need of the upper seal. This reduced the gearbox loss down to 6 watts.
The speed controller is a cheap ($22) one intended for an electric bicycle. It's been modified to make it work on 13V and to reduce it's internal losses. The output FETs were changed to very low on-resistance types, so the controller loss is now between 0.8 watt and 2 watts, depending on power setting.
All the electrical parts are sealed into watertight alloy or polycarbonate housings, with neoprene seals. All cables are fitted inside watertight flexible nylon trunking, so I'm hopeful that it should be reliable in service.
I still have a great deal left to do, including getting the hull and fitting all this stuff, plus sort out the solar charging system. I've purchased some raw silicon photovoltaic cells (108 of them), plus a very neat, high efficiency, maximum power point tracker. I'm either going to make a canopy, with the solar cells on top, or I may see how many I can get on the deck area.
During this lengthy development process I have learned a great deal, so if anyone else wants to have a go at designing a similar low power propulsion system I may at least be able to advise on things I've tried that have failed!
Jeremy
Hi, Jeremy.
Being the sort of handyman that can cut himself with a rubber mallet I am most impressed with your post.
An electric drive Winsome with solar panels sounds like the ultimate duck hunter to me - a veritable Pond/Canal Raider. Visions of sunlit, green water, water lilies, herons in the reed beds, etc. Nothing to disturb the peace except the click of the odd shutter ... and the occasional popping of a cork. Roll on summer!
A few comments:-
1. 1 kWh Lithium Ferrous Phosphate batteries. What is that in Amp.hours? (I should be able to work it out - something to do with V/IR I bet.) Where did you source them? Were they horrendously expensive? How do you plan to charge them if the solar power isnt up to it?
2. In my experience folding props tend to stay folded when covered with weed. Is the sloping shouldered weedless pattern prop too inefficient?
3. How did you make/acquire the alloy and polycarb. housings?
4. Your comments on modifying the electric motor and speed controller leave me LIGHT YEARS behind. Field effect transistors? When I learned physics the EL 84 triode valve was considered cutting edge! ( Come to think of it I still have that home-made SW receiver somewhere... in a box with the QSL cards I think.)
5. I am certain that there is a big market for a 6kW salt water proof propulsion system out there, once someone gets to grips with rapid re-charge and easy exchange of batteries... or develops a practical fuel cell that doesn't cost the earth.
6. A 1kW system, with the efficient drive train you have worked hard for, would be useful for manoeuvring quite large boats in crowded marinas, even if it has limited tide-punching potential. Just how much juice can be squeezed from 1m2 of solar panel these days? Any hope for a self contained system yet?
7. If you – a private individual - can bring this system to a level of practicality that suits your needs, how much cheaper could it be mass produced by a firm like Sillette? Get the bugs out of the power supply situation and reduce costs to as far under £1,000 as possible and many people would prefer an electric system to the infernal combustion engine. So much less to go wrong!
8. My own attempts to get the Four Sisters electrically powered for this summer have ground to a halt. At this rate my first experience of electric propulsion is going to be a mobility scooter!
Keep up the gopod work.
Tony
Many thanks for the welcome, Tony.
What you describe is pretty much exactly what I want with the electric Winsome, a boat that the two of us can use to glide silently along our waterways, with as little disturbance as possible to the environment. I also want a boat where the technology is hidden, inasmuch as I want it to just do the job it was designed to do, without being obviously high tech.
I wonder how much interest there would be in an electric version of Winsome? At the moment, I've just asked Nick and Matt to build me a Winsome hull (I will fit the propulsion system) but I have wondered from time to time whether a commercially produced electric Winsome, at a sensible price, would be viable.
Anyway, answering your questions in order, as best I can:
1. The present battery pack is made up from 32 off, 10 amp hour cells, connected as 4 series banks of 8 parallel connected cell sub-packs, so has a nominal voltage of 12.8 volts and a capacity of 80 amp hours. Unlike lead acid, you can use pretty much all the stored energy in this type of cell, so its rated capacity is also the usable capacity.
I bought the cells directly from China, from a company called Headway, but there are are now cheaper and lighter versions of the same type of cell available. If I were to buy another pack then I would probably get 16 off 20 amp hour A123 pouch cells, at about £30 each. For the same capacity, these would only weigh about 8.5 to 9kg (including the weight of a suitable box) and would be smaller than my cylindrical cell pack as well.
I have built a small plug in charger that will fully charge the battery pack in about 6 hours. Both this and the battery pack are easily portable, the battery pack box has a sealed connector on the end so it can be unplugged and lifted out of the boat for external charging.
2. I have used the experience of the human powered boat developers when designing the prop, so am reasonably sure that it will shed weed OK. Many have already discovered that using big model aircraft propellers on boats gives a significant efficiency gain. Cedric Lynch used them very successfully years ago on his record breaking solar powered canoe and many of the human power boat developers have used props derived from those used on aircraft, with slim, long blades turning at a relatively slow rpm. The best source of design information I had was from a chap called Rick Willoughby in Australia. He has cruised long distances on weed-infested lakes, and undertaken a marathon trip down the Murray River, using his folding prop design. There is a photo of his prop here: http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/pedal-powered-boats-23345-25.html#post295095 and a report from Rick on the Murray Marathon here: http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/pedal-powered-boats-23345-41.html#post330096
3. The sealed boxes for the motor, electronics and battery pack are all off-the-shelf enclosures purchased from Farnell. The plastic battery box was the most expensive, at around £25, the others were around £12 to £15 each. Most of the boxes I've used are rated at IP67 (1 metre immersion) but some, like the battery box, are only IP65 (hose proof), because they are located in a relatively dry location.
The leg that holds the gearbox and prop bearing is made from an epoxy/glass moulding. I made this in the standard way, by making a buck then creating a split mould.
4. I remember the EL84, too, although in my case I was more familiar with banks of glowing EL34s in guitar amps...............
5. 6kW is probably bigger than needed, even for a big boat. One thing with electric propulsion is to get away from thinking in terms of traditional, very inefficient, engine ratings and go back to basics. My starting point was the resistance curves for the hull. Nick had calculated these for Winsome and I cross checked them using a very nice hull analysis programme called Freeship. These gave the power needed to overcome still water resistance, the major part of total drag, and then it was just a matter of estimating windage for the range of wind conditions likely to be encountered. The result for Winsome was a surprisingly low power figure; the same would be true of other boats I suspect.
The key is efficiency. A traditional internal combustion engine will probably deliver less than a quarter of its rated power as propulsive effort. Because it is cheap to just fit a bigger engine to overcome the losses, that is what we have become used to doing. If the losses can be reduced, then the motor power requirement reduces too, by a great deal. A boat that might need a 5hp outboard, with a fast turning, small diameter, inefficient prop, may only need a 1.5hp electric motor to give the same performance.
Battery charging is a problem for big, heavy batteries, but less so if you can make then to be around the same size and weight as an outboard fuel tank. You can then take the battery ashore to be charged, or have more than one, so one can be ashore charging whilst the other is in use. You could even have a very small portable generator for emergency charging on board.
6. A 1kW system would do pretty much as you say and would be roughly equivalent to the biggest Seagull. I used to have a tiny Seagull Featherweight (around 2hp I think) and that would happily push my old 1 1/2 ton, 22ft gaffer around, even in a bit of a chop. Torqeedo have shown that a small electric motor, turning a big prop, slowly, can give remarkably good performance on modest power. They are doing pretty much the same as I am, in many ways, although I'm aiming for higher efficiency.
The off-the-shelf solar cells I have bought (from here: http://www.everbrightsolar.net/diy-pretabbed-solar-panel-kits.html ) are around 16 to 17% efficient, so would deliver around 160 to 170 watts per m² at full sun (1000 W/²). In practice, in the UK, with the cells mounted horizontal, I can expect maybe a third of that figure. Even so, that would be enough to drive the boat independent of any power source provided that I do not use the motor for more than about half of available daylight hours each day. I think I can get a bit more than 1m² of cells on the boat, so may well find that I never need to use the charger. The battery will give a whole day of use, so I am hopeful that this will be enough of a buffer to allow for cloudy days or days when the boat gets lots of use with little charge time. It will be charging all the time that it is motoring, so the power drawn from the battery will be a lot lower than the motor power.
7. Whilst it is perfectly possible to put in a lot of time to do something like this as a hobby, the development time to turn it in to a product is the killer. I am sure that this is the reason that the Torqeedo units are so expensive. They are using the same very cheap RC model motors as I am, with similar controller technology, yet they sell for five to ten times the cost of the raw components. They have undoubtedly put hundreds of hours into development, hence the need to charge to recover this cost.
Some parts of the overall system are fairly straightforward to put together. Motors, batteries, battery management systems, chargers and controllers are pretty much off-the-shelf components, that only need housing. The challenge is in making an efficient drive leg and prop. It is surprisingly difficult to reduce losses and make something that is robust enough for boat use. The Sillette leg is probably pretty inefficient, as it is really one designed for an internal combustion engine that has just been converted to accept a big electric motor. It is proven technology though, and reliability counts for a lot.
8. For an off-the-shelf small boat system then I think it would be hard to beat the Torqeedo range, although they are noisy (they use a high-speed motor and gearbox, which whines a fair bit). You can just buy the motor and use your own battery packs to reduce the cost a bit. This would allow the use of cheap lead acid batteries, to reduce initial cost, and then explore the use of lighter LiFePO4 batteries once some experience of real battery capacity requirements are known, remembering that a lead acid battery will only deliver about 80% of its rated capacity.
Once I have worked out how to post photos here I shall have a go at showing what I have done so far with all the various experiments!
Jeremy
Jeremy,
thank you for your elaborate postings which bring an innovative fresh breeze into this issue and discussion.
I myself am a sceptic with regards to the practicalities of things battery-electric on a boat, but I appreciate the approach you take. Good luck.
Actually, the way you plan it and Tony envisages it, electric propulsion does make a lot of sense for small trailer boats on inland waterways. The Winsome should do well with an electric drive.
Thanks for the kind words, Claus.
I think you are right about the state of electric propulsion at the moment, it is better suited to inland water way use.
What puzzles me is that there was a flourishing electric river boat industry here around 100 or so year ago, yet somehow the infernal combustion engine seems to have killed it off.
A few years ago I hired a yacht on the Norfolk Broads, the George Thetford, which had a Lynch electric motor and large lead acid battery bank in the keel for auxiliary propulsion. It worked extremely well indeed, with plenty of power for manoeuvring a fairly heavy 25ft LOD, even against the modest tide/wind on the Broads. I doubt whether the system would cope at sea though, other than as a means of getting to open water from a mooring.
The real problem for seagoing use is finding a way to charge the batteries. Solar panels can only provide a modest source of energy, wind generators are a bit impractical and towed water generators, or using the prop to drive the motor as a generator, create a fair bit of drag when sailing.
For use in a sailing day boat, though, where power is only needed to get to and from a slipway, a lightweight electric system is feasible with current technology, if a little expensive at the moment.
Jeremy
Hi, Jeremy.
What news? Going into mass production yet?
You DID promise photos?
By the way, my Yamaha has been perfectly well behaved this summer. See photo - entering Loggos harbour under power!
A smart mechanic at Burton Waters Marina spotted that the fuel on/off - main/aux tap was broken, invisibly, inside. The indicated setting had a 33% chance of being the same as the actual flow path! A little vibration and the thing gradually closed itself causing all the grief.
A new tap and my faith in the internal combustion engine is restored?
No, actually......and I still need an electric option for inland waterways.
Oh, yes.... and longer oars. (Does anyone know how to make Admiralty pattern oars?)
Hello everybody,
I am in the(protracted) throes of getting a new build from Matt.Due i.a.to berthing size constraints,it turns out,probably, to be a modified CBL,with single centreboard,cat ketch rig,and electric auxiliary propulsion.Here I have hit upon something entirely new(to me):a Torqeedo outboard,a fairly big Lithium battery,and-a fuel cell!Given moderate engine use,a 5l container of(special,triple-refined)meths would seem to provide a week´s independence from shore power.Expensive,yes,but you get a quiet,emission-free system,and none of the components weighs more than 10 kgs,so easy to dismember and bring home.Has anybody tried this?
Johan
Frances 26 "Freja" and a no-name new boat!
Hi, Johan.
As owner of the first Cardigan Bay Lugger I have an interest in all new builds of that marque – mostly to see if I can steal any good ideas or modifications. You say a Cat Ketch rig? Is that a balanced lug, like Four Sisters or something else? I would be keen to swap ideas.
Another thing that interests me is the methanol fuel cell. Last time I looked these things cost about €3500.00. Have the prices come down recently? Will it deliver enough Amps to the Torqeedo to push a CBL at 5 knots all day? (Perfect for inland waterways.) How much is the triple refined Ethanol per litre? (I ve heard that supermarket Vodka is cheaper but, unfortunately, too dilute!) If 5 litres is enough to last a week at, say, an hour s use each day, the consumption compares with the petrol used by my 4hp Yamaha.
I see you have a Frances 26. Very nice boats. There is definitely something about double enders!
@Tony,
Well may you ask,is the man mad?Why meths,there´s perfectly good single malt around!The answer:new generations find new ways of offending the Almighty.Thus,we now have not only Omission and Comission,but also Sins of Emission.We live in a water-side,eco-zone development in Stockholm,and to get a boat-space right under your window,you have to have an eco-boat--voilá.We started with a BC project-hey,max 2,0m beam-go to CBL.Matt says,go for a single,heavily weighted c/b;you´ve written(sorry)about the windward properties of
the lug rig.I think,choice of 2 rigs:original S19,or cat,i.e.a
forward -stepped,taller,CF mainmast with a bermudan sail.Matt seems to
think this is a good idea.
Regarding the fuel cell:In the Stockholm archipelago at any rate,you have a choice of two cruising modes:gourmet-crawling between marinas with shore power for charging batteries,and,strangely,very useful restaurants(this has much to recommend it)or alternatively,skerry-hopping,stern-anchor-and-tie-up-to-a-desert-island-for-the-night.
In good weather,this can be very nice for a week or so,and this is the reason for the fuel cell,which can noiselessly recharge you overnight,as well as power the fridge,etc.
I hope to get to the UK and Wales fairly soon,any chance of a clamber
over "Four Sisters"?
Johan
Hi,
Quote
"We live in a water-side,eco-zone development in Stockholm,and to get a boat-space right under your window,you have to have an eco-boat—"
An eco-boat, eh? Well, Johan, I am going green, too.
Green with envy!!
I see no reason why a cat ketch rig (Cardigan Bay Catboat?)with a single heavy centreboard should not work well – but don't be in too much of a hurry to discount a high peaked balanced lug.
I like the balanced lug for its ease of rigging (which your Cat rig will share) quick and easy slab reefing (which the cat rig might share) its power off the wind and soft gybing (which the Cat rig will not share) and the fact that releasing the halyard will drop the sail onto the cabin top in an instant, trapped neatly between yard and boom. Do you have many low bridges around Stockholm? The unstayed CF main mast would be quick to raise and lower.
By the way, to get the CBL to point higher and to boost speed in light airs I fly the jib. It really needs a bowsprit to get it clear of the lug sail, a modification that will have to wait until I have thought of a way to retract it quickly from the cockpit. If light winds are going to last, removing some or all of the 90kg lead ballast livens her up quite a bit but I really need a hiking stick on the tiller much above F4. When fully loaded with ballast, camping gear, outboard motor and extra crew, (about 250kg in all) the CBL becomes less lively but will still give you 5-6 knots with a half decent wind.
You ask if there is " ....any chance of a clamber over "Four Sisters"? " Absolutely. Let me know when you are going to be in the UK and we can set something up. Use the Personal Message facility on this Forum.
Tell us more about this fuel cell......
....and please, don't even joke about using a good malt as fuel.
Hi Tony,
Thank you for your kind offer!By hiking stick-do you mean a tiller extension?Nothing about hiking sticks in Hornblower and Aubrey..
I´ve sent Matt a very untidy sketch of impossible improvements(met,so far,by a shocked silence).I´ll try to clean it up and post it.
Johan
Hey, Johan.
Why are you asking me? Didn't you lot invent yachting?
Hornblower? Jack Aubrey? Fictional characters, both! What would Van Tromp have done? (We still remember the battle of Dungeness in these parts ...and that later business with the broom at the masthead.)Anyhow, I dont think the helmsman ever had to sit out a 74 gun ship of the line. They just rolled a few carronades to windward!
To business:-
Tell us more about this fuel cell.....please!
I'll be glad to hear about the (quote) "possible improvements". I'll steal from anyone to make the boat go better.
Dont worry about Matt being shocked by your ideas. He never turned a hair at the nonsense I was spouting when we were working on the CBL Four Sisters!
Tony,
Pity the poor benighted foreigner,him learns English out of books!Also,we Scandies certainly didn´t invent yachting,certainly not in a fair sense,witness a racing meet in Norway in 1870(?),when some guys sawed through the ribs of their boats to make them more flexible in the waves...
Serious question #1:The matter of the hiking stick.Wanting to concentrate crew weight,and also to get a workstation suited to the stereotyped motor patterns of the elderly,I´m trying to make Matt provide a moved-forward tiller,with a linkage á la Sea Raider,and a mainsheet attachment on the bridge-deck or somewhere.Matt thinks this would crowd the cockpit too much.
#2 I´m also trying to promote a sliding cockpit hatch,to facilitate galley activities and to be able to get dressed more or less standing up.This also spreads despondency in the Cardigan Bay area.
Your esteemed comments,please(I´ll get back on the electrics)
Johan
Hi Johan,
The original plan on the Baycruiser was to have no sliding hatch, but this proved a bit too cramping. In the end Matt cut out for and installed a short hatch, which I am grateful for. As you say, I can stand up in the hatch way, which is a relief in many ways. I can also sit on my centreboard table with my head out of the hatch, but I don't know if the CBL layout suits that. Photo of the old hatchless arragement at Beale Park should be below, along with final hatched arrangement.
Right,guys,about the electrons.I feel the dread weight of a Moderator Off-Topic Zap descending on me,but it´s all good fun-perhaps one should start a new topic-CBLs to come.
I´ve already gone on at fair length about my reasons for trying for an electric solution.Now for a bit of "how?"
Power requirements:Last summer,through improvidence,I found myself,after a lovely downwind day,having to motor back,into F5-6 and a nasty wave action built up from a long fetch over several days.My 4-ton boat,with a 9hp diesel,got 4 knots-i.e useful performance at 2-3 hp/ton.The Torqeedo 1003 is claimed to give 3hp,and a well-laden CBL3 shouldn´t top 750 kg-fine so far.
Power reserve:Torqeedo claim that 10 Ah will last 0,5 hrs(with this engine)and 2,5 hrs at 1/2 power,which would probably provide some sort
of an idea of a useful "economy cruise" at least for comparison purposes.
The 1003 comes with a 10 Ah detachable battery of it´s own,which should be a useful last resort.I am,however,planning for a Lithium bank as a main power source.You get 40 Ah at 24V=1 KWh,more or less,in a car-battery-sized box weighing 10 Kgs.An old work aquaintance of mine is in the business(they are right now involved ,for the military,in producing an electrically-powered,submersible RIB). His company has a convenient 100 Ah 12 V package,and two of those,as an example,would,by the way Torqeedo calculate,offer 5 hrs "flat out" or 25 hrs "economy".
Charging:My first idea was to charge opportunistically,fron shore power,solar panels,and perhaps an "Aquair" trailing generator.Then,I stumbled on the idea of fuel cell charging.The German company Efoy make a range of meths-driven fuel cells,the smallest of which would keep energy economy in perfect balance,given economy motor use 4/24 and charging the rest.Unfortunately,I yesterday hit a snag in that the Efoy generators are stated to function only with Mastervolt Lithium batteries,which are a sight to big(320 Ah,55 kgs)and no doubt expensive as well.This is a nuisance for practical,safety,warranty and insurance reasons.So I´m back to square X in that respect,inquiries are in train,maybe I´ll just have to provide locker space for a fuel cell/meths container and wait on (rapid)developments.
Cost:Given the list price of the Torqeedo,and a back-of lorry deal for the batteries,maybe 3500 GBP,i.e."2 top-range petrol outboards" or
"half a diesel".The fuel cell would add another 2 grand.
So there we are,expediently echanging fossil fuel/greenhouse gas for the problems of Litium/Unobtainium (why we are in/on Afghanistan/Planet Pandora).Less noise and smell,anyway!
What? A "Submersible RIB"? That must be up there with flying submarines.
Julian,
That´s what I thought too!
www.theseal.se/products/the-seal-carrier
They´ve actually got orders for this thing.The batteries are Chinese,
ominously-named "Thunder Sky"
Johan
I'm shocked Johan. I thought you Scandinavians were nice people who didn't build things like that.
Mind you, Daisy Grace is with Matt at the moment for a couple of modifications. I wonder if he could turn her into a "Remote Weapon Station Vehicle for Fire Support" with the ability to park on the sea floor. It would save on mooring fees.
Quote from: Johan Ellingsen on 28 Oct 2010, 19:40
Tony,
Pity the poor benighted foreigner,him learns English out of books!
Well,Johan, at least you made the effort. They must have been a good books to judge by the result.
The only Swedish your average Brit (me included) can command was picked up from the subtitles of the "Wallander" series on TV, or leering at Noomi Rapace and (lest I forget)from the instructive CD that came with my Handol woodburner.
For responses to your CBL suggestions please see the "Not all Swallow Boats are BayRaiders" thread. Cardigan Bay Luggers , I should remind you, are lit with oil lamps, not electricity and use use outboard motors that run on solid fuel.
Ok, folks?
It's fitting out time again!
Question:
Do I go for an electric trolling motor or a nice pair of (longer) oars?
They seem to cost about the same.
(The thousand quid Torqueedo awaits a lottery win - like so much else on my "wants" list. Should have taken up a cheaper obsession. Collecting gin bottles perhaps.)
Cheers!
Question:
Do I go for an electric trolling motor or a nice pair of (longer) oars?
They seem to cost about the same.
Spend your hard earned cash ( or ill-gotten gains ) on a pair of longer oars
Inspired by the success we had with the "Seasnake I fitted on "IONA".
See Electric outboard on "Iona!"(a Storm 15) I rushed out and bought a more powerful one ( 34lb thrust ) for my 17ft Eagle525 sailing cruiser.
The "blurb" suggested it would push it along at 5knots. NO WAY!
It pushes us out of the marina on Ullswater ok and, if there isn,t any wind, will maintain about 3knots but at anything stronger than about a force 2 we have difficulty in making headway.
I know the Eagle is heavier than "FOUR SISTERS" but I would not entertain anything less than "The thousand quid Torqueedo " for use on "the briny"
Terry Cross "IONA"
An EAGLE 525? Good for you! Bit of a collector's item that one. As built by the Richards brothers at Morton boats – before the French plastic bathtubs undercut them and made production unprofitable. How do you find she compares?
You probably already know that Peter and Paul Richards are still running the "best chandlery in Lincolnshire" if you ever need spares/repairs/advice www.mortonboats.co.uk
I get most of my bits from there although these days they mostly cater for the racing types, I think. The chat's good, too, if you pick a time when they're not over busy. (If they opened a coffee bar it would always be full!) They even sell Torqueedo's!
Thanks for the benefit of your experience with the 34lb thrust model. That's the sort of thing I was thinking of, so you'ved saved me some money there.
Wouldn't mind making my own oars if I can get the timber.
Can anyone recommend a source? ....and perhaps the make of a cheap-but-ok electric planer?
I still think that electric is the way to go.... lets see how Johan gets on with his fuel cell....or maybe the owner of BayCruiser 23 #1 could let us know how he's getting on with the Sillette system he installed?
Cheers!
Tony
Has anyone tried installing the Torqeedo 1003 on a Bayraider? Quite apart from the cost, I suspect that the standard shaft version is too long to tilt up through the outboard well without fouling it. I think it comes with a two blade propellor (unlike the 503) so at least there is no problem with width.
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I saw this ..
https://www.ebay.co.uk/i/283299330333?chn=ps
Ron Marks free wheeling hand propelled 'outboard' ! - In fact a friend of mine has just got one for his tender to his 34 footer.. It really does exist, I've seen it!
Ideal for the purists out there ! Totally pollution free...
Hi Graham I had a new Torqeedo 1003 for my new BRe, against Matt's advice, installed new. I also had a spare hi capacity battery. It was a bit of an expensive disaster. The shaft is too long so the engine jams in the well when going up or down, eventually I broke the fin on the torqeedo off by accident. The motor pushed the boat along nicely, but it was not silent at all, very whiny, and I got quite nervous of running out of oomph when out in the Bristol Channel on an ebb tide. So although it was fine for moving from marina berth into bay and back it was not really man enough for open sea and it doesn't fit anyway. Now have a Yamaha 6hp, quieter than the torqeedo and with a big tank in the locker never feel fear of loss of power. Pushes boat at 6.7 knots easily, usually use at tick over, love it. Starts first pop every time using Aspen fuel. There is a thread about the Torqeedo and how it can be made to fit with a hinged wooden bit, but basically the long leg and big vulnerable prop are not great with the well and flaps whatever you do. I sold it on ebay to a man in Hong Kong and got back enough to buy the yammy.....still some work to do before e power is right for seagoing small craft I think.
John,
Your experiences are all too common, I'm afraid. Now that I've moved to tidal North Kent and no longer sail on Bala, I'm not sure that my Torqeedo is much use any more either.
But Torqeedo have been listening! Or perhaps the competition from ePropulsion has finally hit home. Here's an extract from an email that popped into my inbox this morning:
"Travel silently
2019 will also see a new direct-drive, 1,100 W addition to the globally successful Travel series of clean, emission-free outboards for dinghies, tenders and small sailboats. The Travel 1103 C is the quietest motor in its class at just 33 decibels, the same noise level as a human whisper, and boasts a heavy-duty design. Just like the market-favorite Travel 1003, which remains the lightest and easiest-to-handle 3 HP equivalent outboard, the new 1103 C is suitable for boats up to 1,500 kg. The total weight is 17 kg, just 2 kg heavier than the Travel 1003, including the high-capacity lithium battery.
"The Travel 1103 C will be exclusively available with the high-capacity 915 Wh battery and boasts instantaneous throttle response, a stronger aluminium pylon with integrated skeg for increased protection from impact damage and an upgraded transom mount for more demanding applications."
The last bit is cheeky. My interpretation of "more demanding applications" is what would usually described as normal use.
Andy, could you, in due course, get some feedback from your friend about the Ron Marks gizmo!? Either a brilliant idea or - er - something else. I'm sceptical. Apart from the physical effort required to generate - and go on generating - enough thrust (energy isn't free), how do you keep that squiggly shaft lubricated? The propeller design has to be good too.
Cheers
I'll do that Michael - I should be seeing him tomorrow (16th Dec).
I must admit too to a slight amount of ribbing when he turned up with it - he has discarded his 3.5 tohatsu in favour of this!
Here are a few you tube videos I found. There is probably more on it on the net somewhere.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELFU_j1m64A
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqaFG0uRqvs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6xvKJTRvF8
I know it is geared 3:1 and the propeller seems very large.
I can't comment on the physical effort required but I suppose it must be on par with a pair of oars and of course dependent on what you're using it on and the tides/weather..
Blimey - this thread has legs! started almost 10 years ago.
I guess that the fact that the core issues remain (apparently) unresolved tells us something?
To add my two penn' orth and inadvertently also add to the earlier "Johnny Foreigner" theme ;) Apologies for length of post - time on my hands - some of this may be useful? Scroll to the bottom?
Small four stroke outboards have become unreliable primarily due to the poor quality fuel that "the Greenies" have foisted upon us, and the associated engine design changes . I have had a new (but "old tech") Tohatsu 6 that couldn't be started after a month inactive; however, clean the carb, and all was immediately well. That engine went with the Lugger when sold - I was slightly worried that the first part of the engine to wear out would be the carb, I have dismantled it that many times.
My BRe has a "new-tech" Honda 5. No problems at all over the first season, but I am fanatical about fuel cleanliness, and that fuel is now only Aspen zero ethanol (expensive and difficult to obtain - that in itself must create an additional environmental impact of some sort?) not pumped petrol, unless on a long passage.
My old 2-strokes, a Mariner 3.3 (tender) and various Stihl garden machinery, all continues to run without issue, using "normal" (high ethanol) petrol; in fact i used to burn the fuel rejected by the Tohatsu in these engines! Old(er) 2 strokes may not be "green", but are comparatively tolerant of poor fuel.
And (almost) finally. A green pal (who has an air source heat pump central heating system on his house) loaned me his Torqueedo (Travel 1003, I think) for a weeks (sail!) racing, approx 30 minute run in and out of port each day; ideal for that use, and I left the Honda ashore. The Torqueedo lasted the week, with careful battery husbandry. Just as well, as we had no means to recharge!
My initial thoughts were - fantastic! immediate regret that I had not gone down the electric route myself, but due to a variety of issues over the week (all experienced by others, as above) I decided the Honda was the right choice at the moment. As well as "range anxiety" per-passage, we were not able to use this motor for a coastal passage race, with extended river passages at each end (Fowey>Falmouth>Fowey). With the overnight to be spent on a buoy at Flushing, there was no means to recharge - at all. Didn't fancy leaving my pals battery ashore recharging overnight, alone! "Supply anxiety"?
The solution?
"Integrated Battery Assist" - have a look at this hybrid system on the Romilly/Roxanne web site:
http://www.romilly.nl/battery-assist.html
Ticks most boxes for me.
I would need to save up for the rather nifty bespoke "generator carrier", let alone a hybrid Romilly....
But then I can't afford a Tesla car either...or the (diesel) Range Rover alternative that a chap near me also runs, to use when his Tesla is not available (always handy for the school run too I guess?). An "entrepreneur" of some sort - presumably his arrangement is both "tax efficient" and convenient?
My summary: We appear to have prematurely "killed off" the small IC outboard, without provision of a viable alternative for "the working man"; very much like we are about to do with "dirty diesel" cars.
Not guilty - mine is a clean, green Euro 6 diesel, albeit a VW - ooops! I am awaiting my Amazon home-delivery of 10L of the Urea required to "fuel" it, even as we speak; bet that won't arrive in an EV.
"Green" - my @rse - a great deal of marketing/sales "kidology" involved hereabouts!
Rant over - shields up ;)
At this point maybe I should admit to being a mechanical Engineer (hence my DIY ability to "repair" my own carb - pity those who need to employ a man; inconvenient, as well as costly) who currently derives income from the oil and gas industry...
...mostly gas - if that helps my soul? :)
That's interesting Graham, and I don't doubt they will get there soon. But now my Yammy will see me out, so I shall cease to think about it.
I looked at hybrid Romilly and spoke to Dutch builder about it, even went to have a look at one. Nice idea but heavy boat and VERY expensive.... hybrid the way forward though I think for seagoing craft.
I've come across an article on Torqeedo's financial tribulations https://www.proboat.com/2018/11/a-tale-of-two-companies/. The article is well written if you're interested in that sort of thing. The bit about venture capital investors wanting lots of control for the relatively small amounts of money that they invest is horribly familiar.
It's clear that the original management of Torqeedo were fairly naïve, expecting to reach breakeven after only 18 months. In fact they never made a profit before they were acquired by Deutz, a move that I still don't really understand.
Graham, that's a really interesting link, thanks. I don't understand high (or low) finance, but the article does explain the travails of Torqeedo, as experienced by those of you who (admirably, from an environment point of view) tried to make it work for you. It would be interesting to know something more about the commercial background of ePropulsion, but I guess the relevant information may not be in the public domain.
Andy, can I refer back to Dec 15 - did you find out any more about the Ron Marks gizmo?
Hello Michael ..
Co-incidentally I was out sailing yesterday (before storm Freya hit) with the chap who has the hand cranked prop. He has tried it and is very pleased - but that was in static water. He must have been happy with it as he has now sold his dinghy outboard ..
Regards
Quote from: Michael Rogers on 04 Mar 2019, 08:53
It would be interesting to know something more about the commercial background of ePropulsion
Michael,
It's not easy to discover but they are based in Hong Kong and manufacture in China (Dongguan). I've heard it suggested, completely scurrilously, that for a time bits of the Torqeedo and ePropulsion units were made in the same Chinese factory. Torqeedo are finally fighting back with a stronger and substantially quieter (direct drive) Travel 1103C but it's taken them more than two years to catch up.
Torqeedo's financial tribulations appear to continue. I think that they're suffering from competition from ePropulsion and perhaps the cost of moving up the scale into much larger saildrive motors. They have a new(ish) CEO "with a focus on improving profitability", presumably at the behest of parent company Deutz. I still don't understand why Deutz bought them two years ago.
Torqeedo could start by improving their smaller recreational product line. The announcement of new products for 2021 is unexciting for the likes of us. There's a direct drive version of the Travel 1103's less powerful relative, which is designated the Travel 603. They say that it's suitable for boats up to 1 tonne but I think that's very optimistic. And that's it. No response to eProp's much higher capacity battery on the Spirit Plus and, direct drive aside, no addressing the plasticky fragility of Torqeedo's smaller outboards.
How about this for an interesting idea? https://www.temofrance.com/en_GB/shop/product/t450-43-temo-450-104#attr=
It's a long tube with an inbuilt battery and a motor and propeller on the end. Use it a bit like a motorised sculling oar. It might suit small dinghies and tenders. It isn't very powerful and the battery won't last long but it might be useful for manouevring around a marina. The biggest drawback is the price of €1,450.
That seems like a huge amount of money for very little. One of my other interests apart from sailing is building and flying radio controlled model aircraft ( when I say "flying" I really mean crashing). These days, most of us use electric power via Lipo ( lithium polymer) batteries, and one of my fellow aviators has diabetes, and failing eyesight because of it. He has been forbidden to drive, so has rigged up an electric bicycle using a model aircraft electric motor, and lipo batteries. I have clocked him doing 30 mph and he says the duration is good. He is quite a whizz at things mechanical and electrical, and I am sure he could put together an electric outboard for a fraction of the prices I have been seeing on this forum. I think the main problem would be keeping the motor from the water, as I think the easiest way is with direct drive from a motor under the surface. Since lockdown, we have not been able to get together for flying/crashing, so I have not seen him for a while, but might be able to contact him if anyone thought it were a good idea. I am thinking of the possibility of making electric Swallow propulsion actually realistic from an economical point of view. Any thoughts ?
I really like the idea of that TIMO electric sculling oar type gizmo.
It would really suit my "yotting" profile, in terms of powering my tender out to the BRe on the mooring.
Light (5kg) easy to carry to take home to charge.
Many advantages to me, and in my case more useable than an eprop/torqueedo.
But £1300! Really?
NO WAY, in my case, is that remotely affordable/justifiable for the application.
Similarly to Charles S, I just can't see where these prices come from?
I'd also agree that the main issue is probably the durable/waterproof housing? Perhaps that's where the costs lie, in small run applications?
I'd also be frightened to put the TIMO down and turn my back; so "nickable", and I'd guess impossible to insure?
As I've posted before, I cannot be an early adopter at these high prices/risks.
Hopefully my Honda 2.3 will last until this sort of thing is available at sensible prices?
Quote from: Sea Simon on 17 Mar 2021, 13:29
But £1300! Really?
NO WAY, in my case, is that remotely affordable/justifiable for the application.
Similarly to Charles S, I just can't see where these prices come from?
I'd also agree that the main issue is probably the durable/waterproof housing? Perhaps that's where the costs lie, in small run applications?
They claim to have sold 400 so far - probably mainly to St Tropez and Monte Carlo. I doubt whether what they have done is patentable, so someone else should be along soon. At least some of the additional cost must be from what looks like telescopic carbon fibre tubing to keep the weight down.
Having read Roger Barnes on the subject, I'm looking forward to trying to scull over the stern when we're finally released into the wide world. I have a spare 9ft oar and am wondering if it will be long enough.
Not as if it's entirely a new concept :)