Swallow Yachts Association
Swallow Yachts Forum => General Discussion => Topic started by: PatCollier on 28 Jul 2014, 10:25
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Hi
I am very much a newbie so apologies for any idiot assumptions..
I have sailed dinghies, rya level 2, so can rig, sail, etc... But don't have any bigger boat experience.... I also have the powerboat 2 .... I have reasonable awareness of tide, drift weather etc having kayaked dinghy sailed surfed and small boated in and around Ramsey Sound in Pembrokeshire for many years..
I am thinking of taking a plunge into the larger craft and really like the Bayraider 20, my thoughts are that it can be sailed solo, can take maybe 5?? And it looks forgiving for a novice (ballasted) but can be effectively upgraded by taking away the ballast...
We are now living half our time in Solva , which dries, so think this is ideal..
I would really welcome any advice or thoughts even if it is... "don't be a fool, go and get more experience , do a dayskipper first.." any advice welcome
Regards
Patrick
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Hi Pat, I am happy to help you in any way I can.
Please feel free to ring for a chat, any time you like about anything you would like to know about the BR. My phone is 07591647097.
Colin
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Hi there
We moved from dinghy sailing (12 foot 6in gaff rigged cat boat) to a Bayraider and looked at both the BR20 and BR17. Depends on what you want to do, as always. We landed on the BR17 and are glad we did. She is easy to launch, handle and trailer single handed. We can launch her off pretty basic boat ramps and even off the beach into very shallow water. We found the size of the BR20 a bit overwhelming, including for storage. The BR17 is also very light and easy to tow and trailer, meaning we can sail easily from a range of places (in and around Auckland NZ). The water ballasting is very straightforward and yes, you do basically get two versions of the same boat with and without ballast. Of course the BR20 would give you a bit more range and more space.
Check both sized boats out before you make your decision would be my advice.
Good luck
Linda
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Mrs Chippy! How nice to hear from you! Could you show us a picture of your boat?
Matthew
BR20 Gladys
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Patrick,
Concerning the worth or otherwise of doing an RYA qualification, have a look at this thread http://www.swallowyachtsassociation.org/smf/index.php/topic,667.msg4033.html#msg4033
As long as you plan ahead (like I failed to do in an F6 yesterday), a plain vanilla BR is simple to sail solo. If you get bored, you can always modify the sail plan to make it more complicated.
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Hi Matthew
Here's Trixie - undergoing sea trials in Tasmania before being shipped over to NZ last year. There are two Bayraiders here as far as I know - one BR20 plus ours, both beautifully built by Denman Marine.
Cheers
Linda
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Patrick,
While the BR (17 or 20) may be a larger boat than you have previously it certainly doesn't need "big boat" experience or training. You sound more than experienced enough to handle a BR and anything you don't know is probably best learnt through more experience with the boats.
Mrs Chippy - I echo Matthew's comment and welcome back to the forum. We feared the burgee saga may have scared you off!
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Patrick
Great boat, always feel safe in her, fun and forgiving. Easy to rig, launch and recover. The only pain you will get with her is the admirers delaying your launch/recovery.
It takes little effort to maintain her and keep her looking prestine due to the sensible amount of timber used and the wood finish the yard uses.
Look at the various mods that have been documented here on the forum some are really useful and help with sailing her. With your dinghy experience on open water you will find the BR20 easy to sail.
They hold their price as well and don,t seem to hang around for long when posted for sale on the forum.
My preference is the GRP version.
Peter Cockerton
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Patrick
To give some balance to the choice of boat debate - have you considered a Storm 17, also comes as a19' version. Double ender with associated advantages - the one draw back being a lack of a planning hull.
Regards
Gareth Rowlands
S17 Gwennol Teifi
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Hello Patrick, how exciting, I would do nothing but encourage you to take the plunge! (So to speak…) I have been a dinghy sailor most of my sailing life, mostly self taught and I suppose slightly 'agricultural', though always an enthusiastic participiant in club racing, I have recently taken delivery of my BRe. Very manageable and well behaved, I have not felt at all that it was a step too far. The best indication has been that my son (who is a senior RYA instructor and very capable dinghy sailor) has been very enthusiastic about my decision and when he sailed Moireach, he was genuinely impressed by her behaviour and thought it an excellent choice for 'dad'.
I am not necessarily advocating the BRe, but many of the Swallow Boats give you transportabilty off the back of the trailer and a great sailing experience (at least so far so good); which is what I was looking for.
Best of luck with your decision-making
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If you're mostly going to be sailing single-handed I would make sure you test getting the sails up on your own. I find sailing my BRe on my own a doddle but it feels like a crisis every time I start out with no one to hold her into the wind while I wrestle the mainsail up between the lazy jacks, and it is very reluctant to go all the way up. I've wondered whether the BR 17 might not have been a better choice for the single hander. This summer I've given up lone sailing for that reason, which is a real pity.
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Rob,
If you have some way of fixing the tiller amidships (using a tiller tamer or just a piece of rope) and also centre your mizzen, the boat should weathercock into the wind, which then allows you to raise the mainsail at your leisure. It's the same when you need to reef or unreef. If the underlying problem is with your mast track being sticky, I'm sure I've seen a forum thread about that somewhere.
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Thanks Graham. Actually I am persevering and I've just bought a Tiller Clutch (http://www.wavefrontmarine.com) which is remarkably simple... I've had a brief test under motor but one makes constant adjustments when you steer into the wind. I'll report back in due course.
This winter I think I'll have my sail cut down in size a bit so there's room for a downhaul lot tighten it. It just doesn't like the last 6 to 10 inches and I've tried the silicone spray etc.
I'm aiming to get to one of two rallies next year and I'm looking forward to seeing other people's rigs.
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I've found it is much easier to raise the main with the motor in neutral. The tight mizzen will keep you head to wind, but if the motor is on, it always drives you across the wind before the sail is right up. Choose a place where there is lots of space down wind, fix the filter and mizzen central and put the engine in neutral and you should be fine. I've also found a small winch is a godsend for hauling up the last 6 inches.
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Rob
Have you discussed the issue with Matt, if you can,t raise the main sail to the top of the mast allowing you to correctly set the sail the answer is not to reshape the sail. If your new car had a sticky piston you wouldn't modify the firing control.
Get it fixed by the builders.
Peter Cockerton
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In my experience 3 things are essential for raising the BRe's main sail - by "essential" I mean to fix the common issues of a sail being hard to raise, not going all the way to the top and "popping" out of the lazy jacks while being raised:
1. Silicon the track & slides. (Makes the sail much easier to raise/lower but doesn't fix issue of not being able to raise the sail the last few inches)
2. Fit a cunningham. (Makes the sail easier to raise and also means it will go all the way to the top)
3. Fit adjustable lazy jacks with an additional line that connects to the boom closer to the mast. (See below)
Matt sailed my boat for the Practical Boat Owner test and within 20 mins he said he needed a cunningham and we bodged one together. He subsequently fitted a proper one.
Change 3 is something I've done this year because previously I've found the standard lazy jacks were either too long such that the boom hits the sprayhood when the sail is lowered or too short such that they unduly affect sail shape when running, etc. The lazy jacks are now adjustable using the same setup as on a BC23. At the same time I thought I may as well add a second line each side, between the original lazy jack and the mast, to stop the shorter battens from spilling out to the side when raising the sail.
The lazy jack changes have been even more beneficial than expected. In particular, the boom can be lifted significantly before raising the sail and that seems to scandalise the sail and de-power it. That makes the battens less inclined to "pop-out" of the LJs. The effect is so pronounced that, as an experiment, we were able to raise the sail without any motor assistance when probably 10-20 degrees off the wind (which is as close as I can get the BRe to sit without motor - see below).
I recommend these changes and they make managing the BRe's sail far, far easier.
One point to add is that I find the BRe does not weathercock in to the wind as nicely as an open BR20. Having sailed a BR20 for the first time this year I was pleasantly surprised how with just mizzen set the boat will sit firmly head to wind. My BRe sits off the wind and I assume that is because of the windage from the taller mast and cabin. That exacerbates the issues raising the sail, esp. if single handed, but that's why I've made those mods. I would really like to be able to make the BRe weathercock closer to head-to-wind but I don't think it's possible (except with a bigger mizzen - ? - but mostly that's the last thing I want!).
Julian - Do you suffer from this too on the BC20 or does that weathercock better?
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This is my first year sailing BRe Blue Moon, mostly single handed, from a drying mooring rather than trailed. Lots of pros but a few cons as well, including raising the main to its full height. I've found the problem is the weight of the boom which has been sorted for the time being by lifting the boom onto my shoulder to take its weight off the sail. Doing this allows it to go up the mast to its full height quickly and easily. Adjustable lazyjacks would be good but wouldn't a topping lift be better as it would help prevent the main and cover being pinched by the lazyjacks when lowered and flaked? Maybe a job for the winter. Has anyone installed a topping lift?
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I would like to make a suggestion about difficulty in raising the mainsail. If it is only the last foot or so that is difficult it could be that the weight of the boom, pivoting in the vertical plane around the gooseneck, is causing severe traction on the lowest one or two sail slides a few centimetres above the gooseneck. Initially, the tension in the halliard will depend solely on the weight of the sail but when the boom begins to be lifted the friction in the lowest sail slides will come into play and this friction will be determined entirely by the force perpendicular to the track and the coefficient of friction. Imagine pulling down on the rear end of the boom with the sail not fully raised (and therefore with the leach not taut). You could put terrific strain on the sail slides just above the gooseneck. The solution is of course simple. Reduce the coefficient of friction with silicone spray, as suggested in an earlier post, and reduce the force perpendicular to the slides by lifting the boom above the horizontal before tensioning the halliard. I don't really like the idea of using lazy-jacks to do this, so it comes down to rigging a topping lift or fitting a boom strut - Barton, for example, make these in various sizes. Or, simplest of all, ask a crew member to lift the boom up while you are hauling on the halliard.
Paul
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Martin, Paul,
Absolutely agree with your points. I thought about a dedicated topping lift but decided that I may as well use the lazy jacks for this purpose given that they already take the boom's full weight without any issues and the sail's roach could snag on the topping lift when the sail is being raised. For me it worked to combined LJs and a topping lift (and it avoids another line to get tangled during storage!) but it would be interesting to know the results if anyone has tried a dedicated topping lift.
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Jonathan
I feel a bit guilty posting here as I don't (yet) own a Swallow Boat (- BayCruiser ordered!) so those of you with (lots of) experience of Swallow Boats should regard my suggestions as those of an "armchair philosopher". But, for what it is worth, for supporting the boom I favour a boom strut. My last boat, a 24ft sloop with a large (roached) mainsail, had a boom strut, and apart from making sail-raising easy it was also invaluable during the rather frequent business of taking in reefs.
Paul
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Being a bossy sort of person, or so my wife says, I think it is most important to have a topping lift. I could not do without it. The advantages are:
1. Initially, use the topping lift to raise the boom to horizontal. This makes it much easier to raise the main. It takes the weight of the boom and a lot of the sail.
2. When lowering the main initially tighten the topping lift to hold the boom horizontal. This stops the boom falling on the heads of the crew, stops a lot of the sail falling all over then and prevents the boom and sail getting in the way of any manoeuvres.
3. With the boom held by the topping lift it is much easier to furl the sail neatly, around the boom and tie it out of the way.
4. When sailing dont forget to loosen the topping lift or it will alter the shape of the main.
5. When motoring or mooring it keeps the boom, sail and gaff, if you have one, out of the way of the crew. It can be stabilised by tightening the main sheet.
How to make a double sided topping lift has been presented in the forum before but I am happy to suppy instructions and pictures if that would help.
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There's a library article on grappling with the BR20 mainsail (including how to assemble a double topping lift) here http://www.swallowyachtsassociation.org/?page_id=404
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Hello All,
The BRe has a fully battened mainsail which is great for reefing and general sail handling, but the battens and sail slides do need lubrication, as previously mentioned here. The last foot or so always gets heavy because you are begining to put tension into the luff of the sail, and the battens also exert a force as the sail becomes tighter. As standard, we have for some time fitted luff downhauls to the main boom, which is a simple addition of a roller clam top, with keeper:
http://www.clamcleat.com/cleats/cleat_details.asp?theid2=57
We would be happy to send these free of charge to owners of older BRe's that do not have them. The rope needs to be tied to a shackle on one side of the boom, at the front end, threaded up through the cunningham hole (about 5" up the luff) and then back down into this cleat. Slacken this off when raising the sail, cleat off the halyard, then pull down on this, which provides 2:1 advantage. In this way you are tensioning the luff from both ends, which gives a much better result.
The second point about boom raising has also been made here - its easier with the boom a bit higher. But with a fully battened sail, a topping lift is a pain, so are lazy jacks, as the boom ends catch in them. My prefered solution is as follows:
Decide which side the wind is likely to be when raising the mainsail.
Unclip the lazyjack from the boom, on the opposite side (the lee side). Clip it to the shroud to avoid tangles.
Take the remaining lazyjack, support the boom on your shoulder, unsnap it and wrap it once around the boom, clipping it back onto itself. (This shortens it, so lifting the boom).
Raise the sail. This should be easier because the wind is on the opposite side to the detached batten, so the back ends dont snag.
Put the lazy jacks back as they were.
If this is too much hassle, then you can rig adjustable lazy jacks as Jonathan Stuart has done, or fit a topping lift, but it is all more string and therefore more rigging time.
I personally find that if you spray the sliders with lubricant as well as the track, that you dont need to lift the boom. In light conditions you dont need to detach the lee side LJ either, but in heavier weather, its a good trick to know.
Hope this helps.
Matt
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I have fitted a topping lift to my BC20 and I love it. Yes, it is an extra line to get tangled, and that might be important if you are trailer sailing, but I am on a mooring. You can pull the boom up to any height you want. when I am motoring, especially in confined waters, I like to stand up, and the topping lift pulls the boom right up over my head (I'm 6ft 3in) You can slack off the lazy jacks when lowering the sail which makes it easier to stow into a boom bag, if you have one. I have also got a very small winch, which I use to raise the last few inches of the sail. If I am shaking out a reef, I can winch up the sail even when close hauled.
Jonathan, regarding weather cocking with a mizzen, my BC20 does swing a bit off the wind I think, but not enough to be a problem. You do need to keep an eye open when the first part of the sail goes up as the battens can snag the lazy jacks, but it hasn't been a big deal, so long as you don't keep on hauling up, but pull out the battens first.
A curious but related point, when dropping the sail, if it doesn't just slide down, don't pull on the luff of the sail, by the mast. Pull out the leach of the sail, and that seems to free things up much more effectively.
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I am finding this very interesting, as I had quite a battle last weekend with hoisting the main on my BRe in what was probably F3. I will lubricate the track and runners, equally I will look carefully at how I hold the boom up whilst raising the sail. I learnt early on to fluff out all the reefing lines! But still had a real battle to get that last foot or so. As a newbie, it was also too easy to forget to leave enough slack on the main sheet, again putting unnecessary tension into the leach. I will look into wrapping the windward lazy jack round the boom once to raise it higher. I have also got something to learn about how to keep the boat head to wind with the mizen. To date the main has been first up followed by the jib and mizzen; presumably mizzen up first is advisable.
Plenty to think about and try!
http://moireach.perryweb.me.uk/2014/08/a-perfect-day-for-sail.html
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John,
I always do: mizzen, main then jib. Mizzen first because that keeps you more head to wind and also I don't want to be fiddling with the mizzen with other sails set. Jib last because that takes you off the wind. Works for me.
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I have also got something to learn about how to keep the boat head to wind with the mizen.
http://moireach.perryweb.me.uk/2014/08/a-perfect-day-for-sail.html
Yup. Johnathan is dead right. Mizzen up first and usually down last. (Exceptions to everything, of course. eg when running in strong winds - get rid of the mizzen to avoid a high speed broach.)
Don't forget to lock the tiller amidships when drifting head to wind under mizzen alone to stop it flipping over to Port or Starboard ...and put the board down.
Remember that, when drifting backwards, head to wind, if you push the tiller to port the bow will turn to port , taking the wind over the starboard bow. It's working backwards, innit!
You might find it more reliable to put the engine in gear and motor slowly into the wind. Even with a SOG less than 1 knot you'll have water flow over the rudder and a more predictable tiller. Only do this if you have plenty of sea room and/or a crew member to keep an eye open while you unstick sail slides!
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Thank you both… I will go and practice!
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Bit chuffed today and thanks again for the advice. Lube'd the mainsail track and sliders. Popped the boat in the bay. Down with the centre board. Up with the mizzen. Left the rudder up. Engine into neutral. Head to wind like promised. <Grin> Hoisted main with ease. <Grin> Drooped ruder. Unfurled jib. Raised engine. Sailed. <Big Grin> :D
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Hi, John.
That's great to hear!
Good boat, isn’t it.....seems to be the best of its type on the market.
(But what will happen if Matt decides to put a decent amount of headroom on a Storm23 I cannot tell! )
The only fault I’d find (as a jealous observer of those more fortunate than myself) is that the cabin bulkhead lacks the nice leaning angle that “Four Sisters” has. (very comfortable for lounging with a beverage)
Why it’s vertical I do not know......