Swallow Yachts Association
Swallow Yachts Forum => Technical => Topic started by: Graham W on 06 Sep 2022, 11:20
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I've just had a notification that my UK subscription for Navionics+, which I use on my elderly iPad and sometimes my iPhone, has come up for renewal for £35. I don't use most of its features and the one I really want (other than daily chart updates), is synchronisation with my old Garmin GPS/fishfinder, which is not available. If I want to update the Navionics-based charts on that, I have to use an app called Active Captain, the annual subscription details for which seem to be shrouded in secrecy, so I suspect £££. This is grotesque as Garmin owns Navionics and the latter can be synchronised with virtually every other plotter brand on the market.
As I don’t see why I should pay twice for the same information, I’ve been looking at alternatives. I like the look of C-MAP, which like Navionics has the hard-edged contours that you need when looking at a less than perfect screen. Savvy Navvy is pretty and says that it is trying to be the Google Maps of marine navigation, taking into account wind and tides when calculating potential routes. However, its chart contours are too soft and don't show well on my iPad. I couldn't seem to get into iNavX without spending large sums of money and it appears to be focused more on the Americas.
Does anybody have a personal app preference that they recommend, including any that I may have missed? I did a forum search for the above apps and Navionics was mentioned by far the most. One person mentioned C-MAP, one uses iNavX and no-one mentioned Savvy Navvy at all. Note to their marketing department - drop the jokey app name!
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Don't forget to look at UKHO Admiralty Raster charts.
Visit my harbour gives you a bit of a free "feel" for these. Eg.
https://www.visitmyharbour.com/harbours/solent/hamble-marinas/chart/4AB4297C95841/hamble-and-approaches-chart
Personally, I far prefer this format to Navionics, and these raster charts seem to be widely available at very competitive prices.
The fully functional versions give zoom and seamless integration from one chart to the next.
I long ago gave up on the "integrated suite of instruments", approach because one bit or another always seem to be obsolete come repair time?
Eg. I'm looking at a boat at the moment on which there is a Nexus wireless wind system, integrated with plotter, fish finder, DSC etc...
The Nexus is obsolete, and a 2nd hand mast head fitting alone (no display) will cost £500!
Havenever tried savvy navvy, perhaps because a navvy, in my book, is a chap digging at the bottom of a hole, probably on a railway or canal?
Discount codes are available if you "dig about".... on 'tinternet
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I haven't yet found the 'one-and-only' navigation app, and probably never will. Anyway, I quite like having more than one source of chart data as it can be a useful cross-check. I've been running Navionics+ on my B&G plotter for 6 years and I do like it, but as you say Graham, they are rather coy on their website about their pricing structure. Updates for the plotter version seem to be vastly more expensive than the phone/tablet versions. (Although they do let you view their charts online for free). However, it really can't be beaten for the detail of its bathymetric data, although UKHO comes close. If you like exploring up rivers and small inlets then check out the difference between Navionics and C-Map (or others) for the upper reaches of the River Dart, or the Avon at Bantham. Navionics is the only chart I know that will get you into Bantham. Garmin bought Navionics a while back so Navico, who own B&G, Lowrance etc, have bought C-Map so that they don't have to promote a competitor's product. I got a free copy with my B&G Vulcan but it was awful, so I paid for Navionics. I think they're steadily improving it but it's still not as good as Navionics.
My preferred alternative to Navionics is MemoryMap, which offers an annual subscription to all 850 odd UKHO charts for about £25 a year. I like it because:
I can also use OS maps on it when ashore.
One licence covers you for desktop PC, laptop, tablet and phones etc with syncing between them.
It's a doddle to plot a course and follow it, and it records your track.
It's got a simple toggle between the map and a data page, and the data display can be configured how you want it. A particularly neat trick is that you can have different data pages if you hold the phone vertically or horizontally.
I like the UKHO raster charts as you don't need to zoom in to check for hidden detail.
You can transfer charts onto devices for off-line use.
I've been using it for yonks so it's what I know
What's not so good about MM:
Transferring charts to devices is a bit of a game I'd prefer not to play.
It doesn't automatically change charts as you scroll or zoom, you have to select them manually
I also occasionally use Aquamap on my phone/iPad. £13.49 per year gets you the UK south coast, or I think about £20 gets you the whole UK. You can download chunks of your paid for area onto your phone as you need them. I like Aquamap's display which is very clear, and it also allows you to overlay satellite images with variable transparency, which is handy for checking out how well the chart lines up with reality. It also has a good anchor alarm which I use in preference to keeping my plotter switched on all night. (I usually forget to turn it off in the morning so get a fright just as I'm leaving the anchorage and the Klaxon goes off - happens every time!)
Just had a quick look at Savvy Navvy but can't say I was tempted by it. Interested to hear if anyone's got anything else they'd recommend.
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Thanks NO, useful.
I tend to use free Navionics from EOceanic site, pilotage info also pretty good.
Some free UKHO Admiralty raster on Visit my Harbour is usable, but the largest scale zoom seems to be blocked? Maybe this is what you're not seeing?
My UKHO Admiralty sub is via London Chart Plotters, Marine Navigator App, on a Samsung tough tablet that lives on the boat. This sub is locked to that one tablet, which is a bit of a pita. Not sure what happens when that goes fro a swim!
Positive seems to be that chart changes, by scrollling or zooming right in, are seamless. This also allows tracking, plotting etc.
The sub which you mentioned via Memory Map seems better in the multi-device respect, but not so good for practical nav in the cockpit?
If the navionics bathymetric data really is better, I wonder where they get their data from?
Afaik, UKHO and MCA produce the majority of it...some added by MOD? Maybe? I used to see some of that in a previous life; you'd be amazed what HMS Echo/Enterprise have mapped...together with Remus AUVs for littoral and submarine warfare.
There used to be available on the web a series of very detailed 3D fly-thrus (developed from multibeam sonar surveys) of several W country ports. Plymouth was amazing, just like someone had pumped all the water out!
Can't find them now. Military Security maybe?
If you dig about you can still sometimes find stuff like attached...which is probably more hydrographic detail of the lower reaches of Fowey Harbour than you'll ever need?
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Thanks Nick for two completely new (to me) sources of navigation information. I’ve had Memory Map forever but until recently hardly ever used it because the purchase of charts seemed less than intuitive.
I persevered with it more recently because of the excellent West Coast of Scotland chartlets produced by Antares. Thanks to your post, I find that hundreds of UKHO charts are available for very little money - there’s almost too much to explore.
I’m less enthused about what I’ve seen of Aquamap. The oligopolists seem to have better detail, curse them. And Savvy Navvy appears to be more suited to soft-hued bedtime reading than real time navigation.
So I’ll probably have to swallow my principles and hand money over to Garmin/Navionics, again. Simon asked where the Navionics bathymetric data comes from. I think it’s from yottie depth sounders automatically (and possibly unknowingly) reporting back to Garmin through their Active Captain app. With maybe some AI joining up any missing contour lines. I’m sure that the Russians are very grateful.
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Bob Bradfield, who produces the marvellous Antares chartlets on Memory Map (at approximately 10x the scale of UKHO charts), writes as follows:
“It may interest you to know that I have started on a new series of charts specifically for shoal draught boats, drawing c. 0.5m or less. Hitherto I have tended to stop at chart datum but realise that for much of the lunar cycle there are large areas of water suitable for the anchoring of such boats, often offering more shelter than is available to deeper draught boats.”
Here’s a link to the Antares website http://www.antarescharts.co.uk/.
I can’t wait to see the new series!
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Here for comparison purposes are screen shots of four different chart apps covering roughly the same area of the Medway Estuary.
The first is Navionics, which as you can probably see has plenty of clear detail and lots of functionality, curse them. Second is C-MAP, which isn’t bad and has the same colour scheme but perhaps less detail than the third, an HMSO raster map on Memory-Map. Lastly Savvy Navvy, pretty to look at and handy for planning in advance using their wind and tidal atlas algorithms. Not so easy to follow in real time when waves and the weather are causing distractions.
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Here are the same four apps zoomed in to show more detail. In the same order as before - Navionics, C-MAP, HMSO raster and Savvy Navvy.
Navionics has its additional sonar imagery switched on as an option and shows quite a bit more detail than the next two. C-MAP seems to zoom in more clearly than the HMSO raster, which has gone a bit fuzzy around the edges. I’ve noticed that Savvy Navvy takes much longer to fire up on my ancient iPad than the other three, presumably because of the complicated wind and tide algorithms that it has to load.
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The first attachment on this one is another view from Navionics, showing a different way of looking at relief shading (one of several). Navionics looks to be the only app that shows tidal channels running off the mud flats. How accurate or useful these are is anyone’s guess.
The second chart is from one of my favourite Memory-Map packages, Antares charts of the West Coast of Scotland. Although it looks like an HMSO chart, these charts are produced privately and at about ten times the scale. This particular chart is of part of a secret anchorage amongst small islands off the NE coast of Barra in the Outer Hebrides.
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If you’re considering swapping over from the Apple ecosystem to Android, or vice versa, there is a potentially significant hidden cost. Expenditure on apps in one system may count for little in the other, so you may have to buy them all over again. More technology bunkers and oligopolistic practices.
If you can get your timing right (and it may be a big if), it might not be quite so bad with navigation apps like Navionics that charge an annual subscription. And perhaps others that make money from in-app purchases may also present a loophole if you can somehow link back to the purchases in your existing account. In particular Memory-Map, recently upgraded to Memory-Map for All, seems to be cross-platform and able to link to previous add-on purchases (such as Antares and UKHO charts) whatever platform you are on. You may have to jump through a few hoops to achieve this but it should be worth it. Bless!
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If you struggle to get the most out of the Navionics app on your mobile device, you might want to ask Santa for this book, which I think is due for publication this month https://www.bookharbour.com/navionics-boating-app-english-user-manual. It’s been translated from the German and I look forward to discovering which “translation errors” have slipped through the drafting process.
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re the comment about "swapping over from the Apple ecosystem to Android" I use Navionics on both an Android tablet and an iPhone - both running off the same subscription. No need to pay twice.
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I have looked at all the tablet/phone charting apart from memory maps and AngelNav. I am waiting for AngelNav to come out on Android and take a look at that. I particularly like the creation of course to steer which mimics the paper method.
Having looked at and tried out Imray, Savvy, Navionics, OpenCpn, AFTrack-SE I have concluded that the first decision is whether you go Raster or Vector. The Solent where I sail there is a great number of raster maps of different scale which on paper makes a lot of sense but not on screen. If your area does not have so many raster maps all overlapping each other with different scale then raster would be a good option. If you are iPad (IOS) based then take a good look at AngelNav ( cheap subscription) and Imray which makes the best of merging the raster maps. I got Imray free when I updated my paper maps. Vector maps give you this ability to zoom in and out and provide detail as you zoom in ( which you must remember to do!). Navionics was the best at doing this.
In the Solent I found that Navionics was far better for depth - which for a keel like the B26 is very important as it is not a swing keel. Navionics also benefited from users putting in their depth soundings. Savvy very little depth detail ( look at Newton Creek on the Isle of Wight to make a comparison).
I had Navionics without the subscription for many years but went back to subscription so I could display AIS on the map. The data came from the radio through NMEA0183 feed to Navionics. I also quite like the way it shades depth depending on your keel but I am not sure that is part of the 'active subscription'
Have a look at https://www.navionics.com/gbr/apps/navionics-boating at the bottom and you will see what you get if you pay.
I have stayed with Navionics because of the depth detail, the way it removes detail as you pan out ( you just have to remember to zoom in to get the detail) and the speed of operation. It works well on a tablet as does Savvy but Savvy I think needs a few more years of sailing development as opposed to powerboat development. If you like raster and of the apple community then pick Imray ( it does work on Android but does not have AIS on Android) or AngelNav but you will need subscription for both of them.
Be warned Navionics only allows 2 mobile devices to be registered and then you have to pay another subscription. I have normally used 3!
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I have concluded that the first decision is whether you go Raster or Vector.
Away from the Solent, I think that it’s a good idea to have both. On my Android tablet I have Navionics for vector and Memory-Map for All for raster. Especially as the latter hosts the brilliant Antares large scale raster chartlets covering the West Coast of Scotland. Memory-Map also makes better and more extensive use of NMEA data.
Savvy Navvy (vector) looks pretty and is an interesting idea but I shan’t be renewing my subscription.
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Carrying on with the NMEA theme, here's a question for true techies, asked out of curiosity rather than an intention to do anything about it.
The idea of using a tablet rather than an expensive fishfinder/plotter is a good one, with one disdadvantage if you have a networked instrument system like my elderly Tacktick. Which is that although (through NMEA 183 and a multiplexer) the tablet can receive data like wind speed and depth from the Tacktick system, the tablet is unable to output position data like SOG and waypoints the other way around. When I had my old Garmin hooked up, it could do that. It's not a problem really, as the tablet is able to do all that sort of data display all by itself, using its built-in GPS.
The Sailproof has numerous ports, including R232 and ethernet. It looks to me that if the tablet ran Windows rather than Android, it might be possible to set up a system with two-way traffic using a cable from one of those ports connected into an electronic gizmo made by someone like Quark or Digital Yacht. Is there any such system that would run under Android or are they still catching up with Microsoft? There's no chance of anything like that with an iPad as they only have one USB port and nothing else. Ignore for the moment the danger of using open ports on a wet open boat like the BR20!
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The tablet phone world best works on Wi-Fi rather than USB. I use UDP but a lot use TCP. It depends on your specific use case.
You therefore need to convert from Wi-Fi to NMEA0183 ( bi-directional really) and also have an app that can produce a GPS signal in NMEA0183 format that is spewed out over Wi-Fi. There is a solution to this.
I have looked at using the phone as a GPS source and have found an app - Share GPS which claims to do this. also there is another app called Bricatta.
I also really like NMEA Instruments - Wirelessly which will give you a fish finder approach. I have written my own depth graph ( output to a kindle) so have not used this nor the ones above. It does rely on a Wi-Fi signal with the appropriate NMEA sentences.
To get from Wi-Fi to NMEA you would need to use a device like MiniPlex-3Wi. If I was starting all over again I would go for this rather than using a raspberry pi to convert the NMEA stream to Wi-Fi. This miniplex device takes Wi-Fi signals and outputs them over a NMEA0183 output which you can connect to your TackTick.
I am not sure what you mean by way point data. Is this a GPX format or NMEA waypoint and subsequent XTE sentences? I have tried to design and build a system for sending out a way point and then the appropriate XTE sentences until the next waypoint. It would take this from a GPX format from the chartplotter such as Navionics and also current position and COG. It is mathematically quite demanding and as I rarely use it I gave up. I am currently teaching myself to write android apps so when I have achieved that then I may return to the problem and start with a waypoint and then see if I need an XTE with the ST1000+. To be able to create a route on Navionics etal and then export it to a file which you then start following would mimic exactly what the current chartplotters do. It is the XTE sentence which is demanding.
Hope this helps and that I have understood your question correctly.
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Thanks Andy.
From what their developers say on the Android app store, it appears that the apps that you mention (Share GPS, Bricatta) have been developed mainly to use the GPS in a mobile phone to provide data to a tablet that for whatever reason doesn’t have its own GPS. Or to let people know where you are. Unless I’ve misunderstood (which is entirely possible), the apps can’t turn a tablet into a “talker” and send out NMEA sentences to a multiplexer for use on an NMEA network.
When I had my old Garmin GPS/fishfinder linked in to my Tacktick system via NMEA, I could tell the Garmin to navigate to a waypoint that I had previously saved. Then the Tacktick system would use the Garmin-provided waypoint (WPL) to calculate clever stuff like velocity made good towards waypoint (VMC) and estimated arrival time. Or maybe it wasn’t calculating it but also taking VMC etc from the Garmin. Anyway, the Tacktick displays would show this data in big clear numerals, unlike on the Garmin’s difficult to read small screen.
Now that I have a tablet taking the place of the Garmin, it can pick up and display NMEA data from the Tacktick system (on UDP via a Digital Yacht WLN10). However, the Tacktick system can’t pick up waypoints that I have saved in, say, Navionics on my tablet. This isn’t much of a problem as the tablet can calculate and display waypoint-related information like VMC, XTE, ETA etc all by itself. Just maybe not in NMEA format.
Most mobile phone and tablet processors are hugely more powerful than expensive but somewhat dumb and inflexible GPS/fishfinders. I’m curious to know why mobile devices don’t yet seem to be bidirectional, by whatever means available. That might be useful, for example, if you have big clear NMEA instrument displays but are relying on an app on your mobile phone for the GPS calculations and outputs.
I looked at the MiniPlex-3WI that you mentioned but got a bit lost trying to understand what it does. Is it a bit like my Digital Yacht WLN10 but with many more ports, or does it have additional capabilities?
Reading your response and particularly your penultimate paragraph, it appears that you have already worked on some of this. If there was a simple way of sending to an NMEA system WPL-related sentences derived from a waypoint chosen in an app like Navionics, then Garmin and the other oligopolists would be truly doomed. Unfortunately Garmin now owns Navionics and I can already detect the dead hand of the parent as the hardware specialists try to protect their part of the business from erosion by their own software and app developers.
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The TackTick system has a NMEA gateway that acts like a multiplexor in that it transmits different NMEA sentences over its one NMEA output and receives different NMEA sentences over its one NMEA input. The sentences then get distributed over its internal Wi-Fi using a protocol I do not know to all its devices who also provide sentences as in a true network.
I assume you have connected the NMEA connections to the WLN10 which also has one NMEA input and one NMEA output. This will take the NMEA sentences and broadcast them over Wi-Fi either using UDP or TCP. UDP is generally used to broadcast and TCP for 2 way communication.
Navionics as an example will read the Wi-Fi port and if it can display the sentences depending on what sensors you have connected to the TackTick network.
If you want to introduce a GPS sentence ( I use $GPRMC) you need to create it from somewhere and inject it into either the tacktick network (T908 very expensive) and then it will appear via the gateway , through the WNL10 and into your tablet or you take the sentence from the tablet and inject it into the WLN10 and then into the tacktick network.
The phone and tablet ( if android) is exactly the same device so an app such as GPSShare will create an GPRMC type sentence on any android device that can run it. You can it connect to the WLN10 via TCP. The GPS Share app is such an app that reads the internal GPS and broadcasts it on a port on the WiFi for any other device to pick up.
My ST1000+ can be set to operate in 3 modes Auto, Track (RMB/XTE) and Wind Trim (VWR). I have setup my Miniplex ( just a competitor to the WNL10 with more connections) to take the VWR sentence from the NASA wind instrument and send it to the ST1000+ via a NMEA connection. I find Wind trim very useful on a close reach/ close hauled but use Auto for other wind directions.
Track mode is where it takes a RMB/XTE sentence and sails the boat to the prescribed waypoint. I do not know of any tablet based chartplotter apps that produce an RMB ( which also contains the XTE). What you can do is create a GPX file which is a file describing the route. From this extrapolate the RMB information and then send that to the ST1000+. This is about as far as I got. I was going to use Navionics to export a file and then load it onto the raspberry pi ( via a webpage ) and then get the raspberry pi to send the appropriate RMB and XTE from the GPX file to the ST1000. ( you have to create the sentence from the GPX file - not easy) This was all going well until I got to the XTE part where the mathematics blew my mind. Then there is the usual issue of knowing when you pass the waypoint so you can send the new one etc.
It maybe that the tacktick network can display RMB information but the issue I have is how you produce it. This is where the professional setups have an edge. Most will import a GPX file from the planning device and then send NMEA sentences to the tillerpilot to steer the boat.
It maybe that you do not need XTE and this is something I need to experiment with. Winter is long and cold and maybe a project I can resurrect.
Apologies for the long response....
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Andy,
Your second and third paragraphs are exactly how I am set up. And I agree that the Tacktick T908 GPS antenna is a crazy price, especially as it doesn’t even receive Galileo signals. I have a more capable Digital Yacht T160 antenna at around 1/3 the price.
Are you talking about GPSShare or Share GPS? I couldn’t find the former anywhere and wonder if it’s still around. Google have chucked quite a few apps off its store recently. Share GPS seems to do what I think are relevant things with NMEA sentences.
As you mention, there are ways of controlling tiller pilots using various tablet and mobile apps like OpenCPN and iNavX and interesting new app navCenter (for iPad). This presumably involves sending NMEA sentences over wifi the opposite way to what I am currently doing.
As with electric outboards, I’ve been an early adopter of this sort of gadgetry only to see much better and cheaper solutions appear a couple of years down the road. I’ll see how I get on next season with what I have (which is already more than adequate) and await developments.
Thank you for all your effort in answering my questions.
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I read someone’s 2021 post on another forum about why it was wrong to use a tablet for navigation:
1. They overheat in the sun and shut down - true for the iPad but not the Sailproof, so far anyway.
2. They’re not sunlight readable - as above.
3. Operating systems can shut down an app unexpectedly when new power-saving measures are introduced. I haven’t experienced this on Android apps but it’s early days.
4. If you’re using your tablet to navigate, you can’t or shouldn’t use it for anything else - which is why you also have a mobile phone
5. Even if your tablet is waterproof, it ceases to be so when you inevitably have to connect it to a power source - this depends on the size of your screen and battery and whether the latter, as with the Sailproof, is swappable
6. Night mode when navigating can still be too bright - not a problem on the Sailproof.
Substantial progress in the past two years - long may it continue!
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Hi , I meant Share GPS. It seems ideal but has not been updated for a while and will not work on my android devices. I will spend sometime looking for others but maybe this is my first project.... A simple GPS sharing app for tablet chartplotters.
I use a USB GPS connected to my raspberry pi from which I export the RMC sentence to Wi-Fi so have no real need for the above.
Unfortunately ( for me) INavX only interfaces to Wi-Fi with the Apple version. If I was Apple based then yes it could provide sentences to control the tiller pilot. Just what I wanted. I have communicated with them and they have said - not in the next 12 months they are recovering from Google's massive change for Android. However I will move when it comes on board as it will make INavX much better than Navionics.
OpenCPN uses SignalK for this sort of thing. It does have a plug-in for the ST1000 and other tiller pilots but SignalK would be required ( if I am correct) and it runs on a raspberry pi or other good linux devices. Also being raster based not so good for the Solent area for the reasons I suggested earlier.
As you say Graham time will cure the issues above.
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A reply to a query that I sent to Digital Yacht: “Not many apps output data but if your app does then …. any data that your App outputs, will be received wirelessly and output to the T122.”
This relatively new app looks a possibility for Android: NMEA Over Network by KikiManjaro. No waypoints, as far as I can tell, but current position data is available.
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Garmin strikes again... big company destroying the competition read this from INavX....
Hi Andy,
Since Garmin purchased Navionics and subsequently canceled our reseller agreement for Navionics charts, we are rather limited in our chart offerings for iNavX Android. If you have iNavX Android installed on your tablet you can see everything we currently offer on the Store page in iNavX. Tap the blue Charts button seen near the bottom in the center of the page when viewing any chart then tap the Store tab. That page lists all charts with prices that we offer for use in iNavX. At this time we do not offer anything for the UK and nothing in vector charts at all.
I wish I had better news for you.
iNavX Support
Jim
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Typical behaviour from an oligopolist. It wouldn’t matter so much if they invested in more capabilities for the Navionics app. But their attitude seems to be that if you want more capabilities, you should spend £££ on one of their very expensive boxes.
The charts on the iOS version of iNavX are OK but nothing to write home about - see the attached and compare them with the various chart views of other apps that I posted on the first page of this thread.
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Face the wind and smile!
I continue to be amazed at the technical expertise of many forum contributors and very much appreciate them sharing their knowledge with us. My technical expertise is best described by HW Tilman as a “hard hitting mechanic”.
For cruising I still want a chart plotter to tell me where I am, where I should not go and how deep the water is. But backed up and by waterproof charts big enough for me to orientate myself and make sensible course setting decisions and identify coastal features a mile or more away. Shamelessly cut-and-pasting from an earlier post my personal quest remains to find a chartplotter for use in open boats that is:
a) Truly waterproof - can operate after being dunked in water, not just splash-proof.
b) Easy to operate with wet cold fingers in gloves by a wet, cold, tired eejit .
c) Bright and clear enough to read in strong sunshine.
d) Displayed big and clear enough to read with misted-up glasses.
e) Robust (including cable terminations)
f) Equipped with an operating system to use with Android or Apple Apps
g) Self contained with 8 hour minimum battery life and re-chargeable.
iPads and smart phones in plastic cases meet some of these criteria but fail on b) - easy to use with wet fingers by an eejit and c) clear in bright sunlight. These are more important than long internal battery life.
Aside from £800-ish for marine chart-plotters - that mostly fail g) - does anyone have recommendation that does not require a 100GByte techno-ninja to set up and use?
Incidentally, a well known Sailing Master who sometimes contributes punishing posts to this forum, helms, encased in balaclava, dark glasses, drysuit and thick gloves that would cut most mortals off from any sensory perception of their environment. I’ve sailed with him and we didn’t even have tell tales on the shrouds, let alone “Tacktick”, or whatever, electronics. His race record speaks for itself.
Face the wind and smile! :D
Matthew
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What works for me, sailing in rough home waters strewn with islands, rocks, shallows, and wherever else I go,
is a rugged waterproof phone for € 210.00, held with a strip of velcro on the centreboard capping, running the Navionics Boating app.
That phone works so well, I use no other in daily life anymore. Dropped it in water, dropped it on concrete, many times, no damage.
C.
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To Matthew and all others who prefer ‘plain sailing’ to tinkering with gadgets - give it time. The perfect cheap tablet system which ticks all your boxes will appear eventually.
Battery life is currently in inverse proportion to screen size but this (and exceptional readability) will be solved with coloured e-ink screens, using much less power. Expensive lithium batteries for tablets will become cheaper and have more capacity, perhaps a lot more capacity. Batteries may not even use lithium any more but something safer and more environmentally friendly. The 24+ hour tablet will arrive and when the batteries on even that version are exhausted, wireless charging for tablets won’t be far away. Someone will invent a wireless waterproof mouse-like gadget with button and arrow functions so that even neoprene enthusiasts will be able to control apps other than on a touch screen. Something like this https://www.medicalexpo.com/prod/shezhen-aitmon-technology-co-ltd/product-300881-1004420.html. And apps will have more features and become easier to use.
In the meantime I’m afraid that you’ll have to put up with us gadget enthusiasts, for whom every new technological breakthrough is another blow against greedy and badly-behaved black box manufacturers. Quite a lot of the disrupting technological advances are being achieved by small companies in places like Cambridge science parks and remote towns in New Zealand. We spend our money unwisely with them (but have fun doing so) so that eventually you won’t have to.
Didn’t the said Sailing Master purchase one of the latest Garmin GPS/fishfinders with a sophisticated depth transducer, so that he could find the tidal channels at Mylor and make full use of the currents?
Face the future and smile!
PS Other than price, this new tablet claims to already meet all of Matthew’s exacting requirements https://www.tripltek.com/tripltek9.
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Hi Matthew
As a non-technocrat, but not quite a technophobe, I struggle to understand much that Graham and Andy write on this subject. However, last spring I did take Graham's implicit(?) advice and bought a Sailproof SP10. While it was quite expensive it seems to meet all your requirements though I have struggled to get the battery to last all day, which means it must be charged on the go, which then means it's not totally waterproof. I don't know how much a second battery costs but I charge mine very successfully either from the 12V battery or a power-pack.
If you are interested in a Sailproof I strongly recommend you DM me - it's good news don't worry! ;D
Willie
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I struggle to understand much that Graham and Andy write on this subject.
Me too!
I did take Graham's implicit(?) advice and bought a Sailproof SP10. While it was quite expensive it seems to meet all your requirements though I have struggled to get the battery to last all day, which means it must be charged on the go, which then means it's not totally waterproof. I don't know how much a second battery costs but I charge mine very successfully either from the 12V battery or a power-pack.
Well, I bought an SP10 myself. I’m impressed with it - it excelled in the bright sunshine on a yachting trip in the Ionian, where the boat’s own plotter screen, unhelpfully, was down below. I bought a spare battery - it’s currently priced at £65 plus shipping.
The Tripltek 9 Pro reflects the march of progress since the Sailproof SP10 first came out in April 2022. It has a smaller screen (8”) but with a significantly higher resolution and brightness. Of particular interest is its charge port, which is IP68 waterproof when in use. So with a waterproof (in use) USB charge socket (eg a Scanstrut ROKK) wired to a decent 12V battery, the days of tablet range anxiety are effectively over.
No doubt something even better will be along shortly.
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Hi All,
I bought the Sailproof SP08 sometime ago. It runs Navionics and Imray although I generally use Navionics. It displays AIS and gets its COG and SOG from the sensors but I could use it with its internal sensors would just lose out on AIS. I have a self made mount in the cockpit see attached - reflection is from the camera
It has not run out of battery yet and normally lasts about a day and half on 75% screen illumination (tracking on) and a day on 100% screen illumination. 75% is fine for sunlight directly on the screen. I have used gloves and it works ok - better than a friends Garmin. I tend to charge it when it is not raining during a sail just to keep the battery topped up
So for me it answers all the questions from Matthew and I have no problems recommending it.
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UK-based Quark-Elec is selling what looks like the old 8” Sailproof (before it was updated with a faster chip) under its own name https://www.quark-elec.com/product/ad08-rugged-marine-waterproof-tablet-8-inch-android/. It’s more expensive than the old Sailproof version but considerably cheaper than the Tripltek, which is made in the USA.
It appears that all Sailproof models are made by Chinese company Geshem. In theory and if you are feeling brave, you could buy one on Alibaba for about half the UK price https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Geshem-10-Inch-Android-10-0_1600281518491.html. There are various options on things like screen brightness - if you're going to take the plunge, make doubly sure that you have the right specification.
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This US-oriented post is a comprehensive review of marine apps for mobile devices, including those that can use NMEA data in both directions https://panbo.com/mobile-app-navigation-app-roundup/. No mention of the Android version of iNavx’s fatal lack of UK charts, and no mention at all of one of my favourite apps, Memory-Map for All.
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I’ve finally managed to get full integration between mobile devices and NMEA-connected instruments and sensors. Full integration in the sense that the tablet/phone can receive all sorts of variables (wind, depth, position, speed over ground etc) but can also broadcast waypoint and route data to instrument displays in the other direction, the waypoint chosen simply by tapping a point on an electronic chart. All without the benefit of a GPS/fishfinder from one of the oligopolists inhabiting their absurdly expensive technical silos.
I’ve managed to achieve this on iNavX, which as Andy has already noted, only has UK charts on Apple’s iOS, not Android. So with iNavX I’ve only succeeded on a landlubberly iPad and iPhone, not on my waterproof Android Sailproof. I think that I’ve also managed it on an Android app called i-Boating on my Sailproof. The problem with i-Boating is that it’s quite clunky and it’s sometimes difficult to tell what’s going on. I can also get NMEA data into my Sailproof using Android versions of Navionics and Memory-Map but in one direction (incoming) only.
There seem to be two important criteria if bidirectional NMEA functionality is to be achieved on a mobile app:
1. The app must have the functionality to control an autopilot, the incidental benefit of which (to me) is that it broadcasts NMEA waypoint data in the opposite direction to incoming wind/speed/depth data. I don’t have an autopilot but can make use of that data.
2. It has to be connected over WiFi on the TCP rather than the UDP protocol. This means that only one tablet or mobile can be connected to the system at any one time (on my basic multiplexer anyway). UDP allows several simultaneous connections. I suppose this makes sense - you wouldn’t want several people trying to control an autopilot at the same time. As an irrelevant aside, you might not want to control an autopilot from a tablet at all - apparently this raises safety concerns.
In the absence of iNavX for UK waters, the hunt is now on for other Android apps that fulfil these bidirectional criteria. It looks like OpenCPN and qtVlm may both be candidates. However, unlike Navionics or iNavX, they are both fiendishly complicated with a very steep learning curve. The journey continues….
This is an interesting (to me) use of my time during the long winter evenings. However I suspect that during the sailing season, sailing on my own, I am more likely to use something simple like Navionics, with basic NMEA depth and GPS data flowing one way only onto my Sailproof. Because Navionics is unidirectional, I can connect my Sailproof on UDP, which gives me the ability if needed to also connect my iPhone to the system and maybe simultaneously run a different NMEA app on that.
This will be at least until iNavX sort themselves and produce UK charts for Android as well as for iOS. As Andy has noted above, iNavX unfortunately seem to have been knocked sideways by various factors beyond their control, including devious behaviour by competitor Garmin/Navionics.
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Hi,
I just wanted to modify some statements below if that is okay. Please do not take offence it is just to help others when they try what you have achieved. I do hope I have not confused it more :)
Firstly you are correct in that the app needs to provide all or some of the NMEA 0183 sentences or 2000 equivalent ( or indeed signal K) for the autopilot to work ( sentences RMB,RMC,APB,XTE and BWC) the hardest for me to build being XTE - cross track error. These then need to be sent to the autopilot in some way. I have also been looking at i-boating and it indeed sends these sentences and it works on Android so seems a good fit. However the circles ( orange, green and red) seem to clutter up the display - I am going to ask if there is a way or removing these but the maps themselves look really good for the Solent area.
With regard to networking I wanted to just correct a few areas.
Background
The User Datagram Protocol ( UDP) is primarily used for fast connectionless communications (fire and forget) . It used in video transmission such as streaming services. Although the original I believe was for DNS lookup. It is fast as there is no checking. The messages are not guaranteed to arrive in sequence or at all. It is broadcast on xxx.xxx.xxx.255 on a predetermined port number. Any receiver ( or client) can open the port and read the data.
If you want a reliable transmission then the Transmission Control Protocol ( TCP) should be used. The server establishes a 'hanging socket' which comprises an ip address and port number. The client requests a connection to the hanging socket which then provides another port number where socket 2-way communication can occur. This is difficult to programme as each connection needs to be handled synchronously and in the modern world is achieved using parallel computing and shared memory. This is why TCP connections are restricted to one only. However sequence of transmission is guaranteed and delivery is guaranteed.
Port numbers are used to establish types of connections between computers on a common ethernet based network. For instance web pages use port 80 ( and 8080 for secure pages). Any program listening or providing messages on that port needs to comply with message construct for that port. There are fixed pre-defined purposes for port numbers but also a range of number that are not fixed - I use 8829. You usually find a free one by scanning the ports on the computers you are using.
To come back nearer to the real world....
The problem here is to find a bridge ( yet another computer term - your internet router has a wifi bridge) that will take the point to point NMEA0183 messages based on serial comms ( 4800 baud) to a wifi/ethernet network. This is usually accomplished via a multiplexor of which some allow 2 way communication. The serial connections usually have an in and out connection which some devices can cope with. For example a wind sensor would have an 'out' port connection and the autopilot an 'in' connection. The multiplexor will be configured to receive NMEA messages from the wifi network and send those messages out on a pre-determined 'out' connection. It can also route messages from an 'in' port to an 'out' port. Not normally an issue as these are hardwired. I use the later to send wind information to the autopilot.
The Wi-Fi network can either be UDP or TCP. I prefer TCP as the wind displays seem more consistent than with UDP however I may be imagining things here. So you could broadcast on one UDP port and receive on another UDP port. However most apps don't seem to want to do this ( prefer a single port) and those with auto pilot functionality prefer TCP as the sequence of NMEA messages are important.
I have moved completely over to TCP and programmed the raspberry pi to handle multiple TCP connections. It would appear that Graham's multiplexor can send messages on both TCP and UDP and receive on TCP. So I would set that up to have one TCP connection to the app that is going to provide the autopilot data and the other apps ( such as Navionics) which only receive to a UDP connection.
The NMEA 2000 network is not point to point. That means many messages from many sensors, chart plotters etc are flying around it. There could as a result be a clash of messages ( 2 devices sending the same message such as GPS data) The NMEA 2000 message has a source id that allows the receiver to decide which takes priority. So the GPS unit rather than the phone GPS( coming through the wifi bridge) would be used unless the GPS unit stops sending. Most chart plotters have this priority functionality which is setup by the installer.
In the world of Android/IOS networks it is the individual apps that provide the messages. So I would see a clash if say the Android tablet provides a GPS signal along with the phone and you have apps that transmit both over the network. In this case you would need to decide which app takes priority and turn off the other. I do this with Navionics on the Sailproof Android device. I turn off the Sailproof GPS ( which saves a lot of power) and use the more accurate GPS unit which send the position over the multiplexor to the Wi-Fi network and then to Navionics.
So to summarise:
UDP comms is connectionless. You could use 2 ports to provide 2-way communication but it would be very difficult to synchronise the messages and why build it when there is one waiting to be used - TCP.
TCP comms is reliable and can perform 2-way comms. It is hard to programme. Most simple multiplexors constrain the usage to one TCP connection.
Part of the chartplotter installation is to determine the priority of messages should the same one come from different devices.
When using a tablet/phone/pc based chart plotter when setting up the software priority of message source has to be determined by the installer.
It is interesting to note that most installations of multiplexors assume the only interesting bit of information you get back from the wifi network is autopilot information but I suspect a lot will use it as a means to get back GPS data to obtain say true wind from a wind sensor....
Please let me know if this type of message is inappropriate. I do not want to offend people.
Best regards
Andy B
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All this talk of TCP etc leaves me feeling quite queasy. I can just manage to switch on my Sailproof tablet so, sadly, will not have an integrated NASA and Sailproof setup as discussed (I think) by Andy and Graham. But it is interesting to hear what is possible.
On a more prosaic level, Sailproof are offering 20% off tablets atm, so perhaps worth a look for anyone in the market for an Android Nav tablet. I've been very pleased with my SP10, despite the battery not lasting a day - perhaps I can tweak the settings to extend the power.
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I do apologise for getting all technical.
When you buy sensors and a commercial chart plotter and want them all joined together you generally also purchase an installation service. This is why they are so expensive....
The same can be said if you purchase sensors and join them up to to chart plotters based on tablets/ phones etc.
For years on my previous boat I had a depth sounder with its own display ( NASA) and a mobile phone with Navionics and used the phone's GPS and it all worked just fine. Then I purchased a Bluetooth wind instrument which connected to my phone and flipped between the map and the wind instruments. I often wished I stayed that way.
Then I got the Baycruiser 26 and it came with all these NMEA based sensors and to integrate them all is complicated and you need some knowledge to do it. There must be an installation service out there for those that need it.
But please stay with a tablet , Navionics and a separate depth sounder and use the tablet's GPS. It is all so much simpler.
You can extend the battery life by turning the display intensity down. I find at 75% it lasts more than a day and you can still see it in the sun. Screen intensity is the largest consumer closely followed by the GPS sensors.
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A revised model of the Sailproof 10” Android tablet is coming out next month https://sailproof.shop/product/sp10x-high-end-10-inch-android-rugged-tablet/.
The main improvements are a faster and more capable CPU (including a barometric pressure sensor), a screen that can be read with polarised sunglasses and a waterproof charge socket and lead. No change to battery capacity or to screen resolution or brightness, which are a bit on the low side compared to some competitors but still perfectly good enough for our sun-drenched sailing purposes.