Swallow Yachts Association
Swallow Yachts Forum => General Discussion => Topic started by: Peter Cockerton on 17 Sep 2013, 19:33
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Musing over the theoretical possibility of using the boom with the main rigged to lift a person out of the water and get them back into the boat.
Assuming a crew of two with one left in the boat after the incident and the water ballast tanks full is this at all realistic. I muse over this after reflecting back to several weeks ago when trying to get my 37 kg dog back on board using the handle on his life jacket. He voluntarily decided to go overboard for a swim back to the shore for a comfort break. The boat did heel over as you might expect when i lifted him back in but not excessively.
The second prompt came about with the small mod to the mainsheet fixing to the cockpit floor, i changed it from a D shackle to a hefty snap shackle so i could remove the complete mainsheet assembly when leaving the boat to stop it being removed by the light fingered brigade currently blighting Rutland Water north shore.
Standard figure of eight procedure to put the mob on lee side of boat, this would put the boat head to wind, get mob back on the boat by muscle power from crew and mob assistance by any means possible, or use rudder step or bathing ladder if fitted and mob able to do so. If mob unable to assist and a normal adult weight it is doubtful whether a single crew member could lift the mob back into the boat. So should we carry one of the commercial mob kits or can we use the boom and mainsheet to assist or will the boat heel over as the lift is executed and result in no practical assistance in the recovery or perhaps worse put the boat at risk of capsize.
If nothing else this posting will prompt thought and discussion on this very serious issue.
I have fitted the stainless telescopic ladder mod to the rudder assembly so this would be the first option for someone capable of using it.
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Peter,
I'm not sure how you would use the boom to assist. For it to be of any use in lifting a casualty, the boom would need to be both horizontal (more or less) and not waving about with the wind, which would mean dropping the mainsail and trying to secure it in one place. So you would need to rely on your topping lift and various other bits of string to keep the boom steady and to one side. Assuming that this was successful, trying to haul an unconscious adult out of the water over the side might then pull either the gooseneck or the topping lift fittings out of the mast.
Other than putting out an immediate Mayday, I don't know what the answer is. Maybe use the mainsheet to try to haul the casualty over the stern or at least half out of the water? But what would the mainsheet be attached to?
37kg is a big dog!
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Graham
All valid points you have raised and i agree without modification the concept would not work, however we still have a mob, we have raised a mayday and mob is not going to thrive in that environment for very long.
Most of the points you have raised are in the following process i found in the YBW forum and i wonder if some of the solutions could be applied to Swallow Boats to give us a chance of getting mob back on board.
Block and tackle off mast or boom (mainsheet should do it) and rope to keep MOB close to boat.
With boom we have simple arrangement from topping lift to boom end that means we can raise boom from cockpit first.
Caribiniers each end ensure quick inversion, one to boom and one to MOB so that mainsheet can be pulled downward to haul out, this way MOB can help too (we hope).
Main thing is three or more short pieces of rope with spliced eye to slip over end of boom and fastened to other side of cockpit to keep it from swinging outboard too far
Others for slipping over MOB leg, high up, to drag that one and then the other inboard (don't fasten danger here!) when he is being hauled up by the mainsheet, then haul like crazy on mainsheet while swearing vociferously!
MUST get him above waterline quickly before boat rolls back onto him and pull like hell when he's lying on the hull rolling out of the water.
Sounds complicated!
Get your MOB fastened to boat.
Takes 20 seconds to fasten boom to other side (after sails down), 10 seconds to invert mainsheet arrangement by caribiniers, 60 seconds to haul boom up to height that will drag MOB over side (must refine this)
Dedicated block and tackle may be better but have swung on mainsheet and bounced with no detrimental effects. Think it's a good idea, obviously requires more thought but does work.
A leg over the coaming, so to speak is a huge help in dragging them in to the boat.
Happy nightmares
Peter
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MOB situations are stuff of nightmares. My actual solution is generally to sail single handed, then if I fall overboard, that's it. Makes me concentrate on not falling overboard.
I really don't think you can use mast gear from light boats like most Swallowboats to pull sodden, scared people back on board. Even if the boom doesn't break (which I think it probably would), any topping lift block at the mast head is likely to rip out. What I do think is essential is a boarding ladder that can be deployed from the water. That gives a chance of getting back on board. If I sail with crew I am planning to get a life sling, which I could use to make contact with someone in the water, which is not easy otherwise.
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There was a long thread about this (actually, mainly in the context of single-handed sailing) on the Forum, some years ago in the 'good old days', which became as dismal as this one may. I believe the original trigger was a report on the Drascombe Forum about an appalling single-handed-sailing tragedy off the Irish coast. It was actually a useful discussion because, as direct results, various ladders were tried, and Swallowboats rudders were re-designed by Matt to incorporate a 'step' on the upper surface, in the hope that this would enable a MOB to climb back. I wonder whether anyone has tried this out, as a practice exercise or even in the fear and trembling of a real emergency?
At that time I had my tippy little double-ender Cadenza, and I knew, from my one capsize experience with her that, notwithstanding her low freeboard, getting back amidships was impossible. I cut a step in the rudder, but thankfully never had to use it. Even if I had balanced the boat to heave myself out of the water via the rudder step, I would have had 2 1/2 feet of narrow after deck to clamber across to reach the cockpit, and I think she would have tipped over again. I should have tested it out, but - ahem- never did, as one tends not to do.
With Cavatina, my Trouper 12, I have a low and short rudder stem to get up onto, in the middle of a reassuringly wide transom on an extraordinarily stable little boat, so I think I would be OK-ish. And I was brought up, sailing-wise, never to cleat the mainsheet (which is feasible on a boat as small as mine), so she would come up into the wind (no 'balance' because no mizen), and not sail away. But, like Julian, I try to be disciplined and severe with myself so that IT DOESN"T HAPPEN. 'All very well', I hear a mutter, 'but what about The Unforseeable?' There's no answer to that. This IS getting dismal.
Julian, excuse my ignorance, but what is a life sling? Should we all have one aboard?
Michael
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I have tried using my transom ladder. Quite a lot this last warm summer in fact. I can get up it quite easily when going for a voluntary swim. Climbing back up it in cold, thick, soggy clothing might be quite a different matter, and that I haven't tried. I have added an extra rope-ladder step at the bottom, because getting a foot on the bottom rung was the hardest part, even though it is a foot under water. It floated, which should have been obvious, which made it not very helpful. I have added a bit of chain under the step to make it sink, but won't be trying it for real until the next hot summer. I love the look of double ended boats, but I love the ability to get in over a transom even more.
Michael, a life sling is just a flexible, buoyant thingy on the end of a long floating rope, which you can use to get in touch with an MOB. If you are lucky you can chuck the sling to him/her, but more often you tow it behind the boat and circle around the MOB. They should be able to grab it and pull it on and then you can haul them in (I hasten to add, I have never actually done this!) No use to a single hander, but better than an unattached lifebuoy I think, if there are two or more of you.
Two things to remember about MOB situations, which might cheer us up:
1-Best way to avoid an MOB situation is not to go sailing (shudder)
2-You are far more likely to die in your car on the way to your boat than you are by falling overboard, so keep on sailing! (shuddering stops)
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I think the only real solution to an unconscious and heavy MOB, in the absence of external help, is to try to tow them to the shore (especially if on one of the lakes like Bala or Rutland Water). Obviously face up, which means that if they are not wearing a lifejacket, some sort of fairly heavy duty buoyancy device (like a Lifesling?) will have to be secured around them so that they stay head first and on their back.
I have used the notch in the rudder on my BR20 to get back on board after a swim. A rudder-mounted telescopic ladder is more comfortable to use but not essential. In the case of recovering an unconscious MOB, neither will be of much use.
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Hi Guys,
See folding/extending ladder on quarter.Works!
Please unsee temporary O/B bracket on side.Will go away.
Regards,
Johan
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Some interesting points here.. but the underlying theme seems to be that if there were a MOB situation and the victim is unable to help themselves back aboard for whatever reason then you are facing a very serious situation.
The practices that can be deployed when on a cruising yacht, ie using the winches, a folded sail, the tender etc are just not applicable to any kind of small boat.
Indeed, I would say that a lot of us frequently sail single handed - and there is not just the MOB situation to consider, but what about capsize and the boat does not right, or does right but sails away on it's own?
Outside help/rescue is the only alternative.
I have been considering this matter for some years - too many to be honest, without doing anything about. But a visit to the boat show minded me to get a grip and do something about it.
The Personal EPIRB or Personal Locator Beacon is, I feel, essential everytime we go out to sea, whether or not with able bodied crew.
It seems there are two types, the satellite locator that transmits an emergency signal, together with your GPS co ordinates to the MRC at Falmouth or the AIS locator beacon, that will transmit an emergency signal on the AIS VHF network within your immediate vicinity and show your exact position on their chart plotter - but remember VHF is line of sight and you are a very small object very, very low in the water. But the advantage of this is that any shipping (incl other yachts) in the immediate vicinity can come to your assistance very quickly, whereas the GPS/EPIRB system relies on the MRC organising the rescue - which would probably take several hours, time to get to you to take your corpse back to your nearest and dearest!...
Some research will help you make up your mind what system you think might be best for you..
Where I sail there is no commercial traffic and few yachts, so it seems the Personal EPIRB and wear a dry suit will be my best solution, and is what I shall be buying.
Either type can be worn on the body, affixed to your lifejacket. The prices I saw at the boat show this week were both types at under £200, battery life is a minimum of 6 years. Money very well spent? Your missus may (or may not!) think so...
And don't forget personal pen flares stuffed into your sailing jacket pocket and even a waterproof handheld vhf?
Food for thought .. and not very tasty food at that !
Andy
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Everyone has to make their own decisions about what makes them feel comfortable when taking part in any activity. I tend to be minimalist in my approach to precautions because that is what I like, but others will want to be far more proactive. Each to their own. It is a bit like mountain climbing where some love climbing in guided groups and others like to climb solo.
Johan, it is good to see you back. I still want to come a sail in the Baltic. Retirement isn't all that far off, and then I'll have time to get up there.
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We keep a sweet homemade rope ladder cleated to the side deck at all times. The rungs of the ladder are made of Ipe, a South American hardwood so dense that it doesn't float. It would be relatively easy to reach up and deploy it from the water, if not so easy to actually climb up, but this isn't of much use if your boat is sailing away without you. If single handing, this would be a near certain death situation in our home waters. For single handing on frigid Lake Superior, I wear a harness on all but the most gentle of days. When sailing with my son, the bar gets set a bit higher as to when the harness go on, but we wear them more often than not.
Jim Levang
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Thanks to all response from this posting and I’m sure it's been most useful to get us to think about some of the ideas voiced and perhaps equipment to consider purchasing.
Consider using a harness in all but the most benign conditions.
Consider keeping a life sling on board
Consider the purchase of a personal EPIRB
Consider fitting a folding telescopic ladder or similar
Have a method plan to tow an MOB back to shore/assistance using a life sling.
On the matter of getting an MOB back onto my Bayraider I have not totally given up on the idea of using the boom and mainsheet. When I look back on the video of forcing a Bayraider with full tanks to capsize it took two adults and one of them to climb the mast to gain leverage to achieve the task. I agree though that without stronger fixings on the boom/topping lift it will certainly fail. I also keep reflecting on the achievements of the Apollo 13 team back on terra firma that modified the scrubbers with string and sticky back plastic and saved three lives.
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On the subject of boarding ladders here is a picture of the one I use - the distaff side of my crew has used it as a swim ladder and she can climb in and out without problem, and without noticeably rocking the boat (full tanks) - but she only weighs 60 ish kilo's and was wearing next to nothing..
I got it from an ebay chandlers for about £12..
Thanks for raising this important subject Peter, but the question still remains - can you get 37 kilo's of wet dog back on board...?!
Andy
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Thought i would bring this idea to the readers of the forum just in case it's just me that hadn't seen it before.
http://www.jasonscradle.co.uk/frc_kit.php
Not suggesting that this commercial bit of kit would be viable for the Swallow Boat owner but the concept could surely be considered. The video is worth watching on how the kit works and appears that with the 2:1 mechanical advantage for the on board crew one man can carry out the rescue.
Hammock shape, cargo net like construction with one end secured to the main sheet floor fitting, a way of getting the net to sink so mob floats into loop, perhaps bar through netting to form a handle. Perhaps rig mainsheet tackle to a strain line stretched across the other side of the boat between two cleats and the cargo net.
It should all roll up into a small long bag if it works and hopefully never be used, if above construction idea worked it should only cost a few pounds.
Will have a go at making something on above lines, persuade Andy D to don his dry suit and give it a go, ideas very much appreciated.
Peter
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Ha! ... I don't think so!
A better idea would be for you to borrow my drysuit and YOU go overboard .. Or the dog?!!
The principle of the 'jason cradle' MOB recovery has been used for years by cruising sailors using a sail (jib is ideal) - afix the clew and tack to the toe rail - or other strong fixing points, drop the head into the water under the MOB and back up to the main halyard, winch like crazy and the unfortunate MOB 'rolls' up the side of the vessel in a horizontal position...
Andy D
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I would much appreciate a demonstration of a Jason-cradle-type solution, or any alternatives, at the Swallow Boats Rally Ullswater Rally, 10th May next year. In fact I'll volunteer as a 200Kg guinea pig, assuming reasonable chances of a successful rescue are assured. Yes, I will wear a dry-suit!
Matthew
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I would much appreciate a demonstration of a Jason-cradle-type solution, or any alternatives, at the Swallow Boats Rally Ullswater Rally, 10th May next year. In fact I'll volunteer as a 200Kg guinea pig, assuming reasonable chances of a successful rescue are assured. Yes, I will wear a dry-suit!
Matthew
Correction: make that a 100Kg guinea pig unless Christmas is unusually fattening this year.
Matthew
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Mathew
What a star you are, for volunteering I will buy you a couple of beers if we get you back in the boat, if it fails to get you out of the water, well, you won't be thirsty will you.
Seriously, the kit obviously works and manageable by one crew member, working on the assumption that the mob enters the loop horizontally and stays there whilst the loop is closed. The design is such that the loop does not flatten and I guess squash the mob, also the soft curves of the rib lend themselves to aiding the roll effect of the mob back into the boat. In our favour we have fairly short freeboard to consider but still enough to perhaps have enough to make a squeeze area when mob initially pulled out of the water especially if homemade design does not have the means to prevent the loop from closing. Will put some thought into making a bit of kit and trial it on the next mob on my boat (Scooby, here boy fancy a nice cool dip).
Peter
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Have a look at this ..
http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?373360-Yacht-aground-and-skipper-missing
Just a couple of days ago ... just a simple sail from Weymouth to Swanage.. yet his boat is found washed up in France..
A major air/sea search was launched by the French but apparently still no sign. Portland are co ordinating on our side of the channel
Perhaps with a Personal EPIRB there may have been a happier outcome.... My order for one goes in today.
It seems he was sailing single handed and the weather seems to have been pretty rough too.
There are some very interesting comments on autohelms (or tiller tamers in our case?) that would most definitely ensure your boat sailed sedately away after you had fallen in the water.. instead of rounding up into the wind and stopping? Mind you, leeward drift is certainly faster than a man in a lifejacket could swim. I recall my days of racing catamarans that would often tip over, the first rule was never, ever let go of the boat as she would be off downwind like the proverbial off a shovel.
Very sad. I am sure all our thoughts go out to his family and club members..
Andy
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It makes your blood run cold...Anyone for golf instead? (Actually, no thanks.)
The Ireland incident which sparked the previous thread I mentioned (which was called something like "anyone for a swim?') concerned an experienced sailor who went out singlehanded in his Drascombe in conditions of very little wind but quite a marked swell from bad weather elsewhere. He didn't return, and his boat was later found drifting empty, sails up, outboard in neutral, throttle partly open, tank empty. They thought he had given up on the windless conditions, started the engine, left it idling, went forward to drop the sails, and was knocked overboard by the sail swinging across in the heavy swell. And couldn't climb aboard..... (I think he was never found.) Which, of course, sparked the discussion about climbing back.
Michael
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While waiting for Matt to get my BC20 built, and intending to sail it single handed, I've had some time to think about this! I'll have a tiller-pilot so the boat would happily sail away from me if I went overboard, but even head to wind most boats drift faster than you can swim if there's any wind. So when at sea (as opposed to the river) I intend to be clipped on going forward or in the cockpit in poor weather.
As a dinghy sailor I already have a dry suit (although I'd only want to use it in bad weather). At the Boat Show I bought a PLB - the sort which transmits to satellite and has a homing signal. My lifejacket has a special pocket for it to live in. I also have a hand-held DSC enabled VHF which I can carry in a pouch on my lifejacket harness. I would use this rather than an AIS beacon. Indeed, for my local sailing area the VHF seems the best bet for rescue - using the distress button will send a mayday with my GPS position to all DSC equipped vessels within range. From the water, VHF range is very limited but in the Solent you are probably at more danger of being run over than from drowning! It's outside the Solent that the PLB may well be more use than the VHF.
However, despite these precautions the main thing has got to be... don't fall in!
Peter
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Hi, Peter.
Give the survival times in cold water - even with a Drysuit - and the difficulty of re-boarding most small boats, "Dont fall in" is definitely the best policy. The increasing availability of small and (relatively) cheap PLBs is a welcome trend and all single-handers and sailors in remote places should, out of consideration for family and friends, take a look at them. They will, at least, make it easier for the emergency services to find the body.
The sea is a hostile environment and we are all capable of errors of judgment and so I am quite happy to dress up like a StarWars extra (with my dry suit, life jacket, VHF, PLB, Iridium sat phone, whistle, pocket flares and safety knife) in the hope of increasing my chances of survival but only so long as I am NOT told I MUST do so, what ever the circumstances, by some career politician flying a desk in Whitehall..... and don't get me started on knee-jerk knife legislation!
BTW The old thread on this topic is : http://www.swallowyachtsassociation.org/?page_id=17