Swallow Yachts Association
Swallow Yachts Forum => Technical => Topic started by: Graham W on 05 Mar 2021, 13:29
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The rudder of older BR20’s and BRe’s is attached to the angled transom, which cants the leading edge of the rudder quite far forward (photo below). This can potentially give rise to significant weather helm, especially in strong winds.
Newer versions of both boats now have a different configuration. This involves a new moulding inset into the stern, allowing the rudder to be hung vertically. Those who have sailed both versions say that it lightens the helm considerably and allows for much faster tacking. And presumably if you’re not fighting weather helm, it also provides faster progress to windward.
Older boats can now undergo drastic surgery to the transom at the yard (described by one owner as ‘cut and shut’) at hefty cost, giving instant improvement to handling. I think that when I win the lottery tonight, I’ll just buy a new model. Plus a BC23 of course, which also has this vertical arrangement.
In the unlikely event that I fail to win the lottery, what would be the effect on the helm of preventing the old-style rudder from dropping beyond the vertical? Using a wedge or something, so that the leading edge would no longer be canted forward. I’m hoping that some clever engineer on here can say why this seemingly simple solution doesn’t work.
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Isn't the issue the area of the rudder fore and aft of the axis of rotation of the rudder, not the angle of the axis? It's the horizontal distance of the centre of effort of the rudder to its axis of rotation which says how much weather/lee helm you'll have. (oops, but see clarification below)
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Paul,
You’ll have to excuse my ignorance, but if the rudder is fixed straight down instead of being allowed to cant forward, doesn’t that place more of its area behind the axis of rotation, which I assume is the set of pintles attached to the transom? As I keep being overlooked by the lottery I’m trying to find a seriously cheapskate way of achieving some of the benefits of ‘cut and shut’.
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I'm very far from having any good relevant expertise when it comes to boat design and I was wrong to write: "It's the horizontal distance of the centre of effort of the rudder to its axis of rotation which says how much weather/lee helm you'll have." No, that dictates how hard must one must pull on the tiller to steer e.g. to correct for weather helm.
But given some weather helm is generally considered a good thing, that the tiller doesn't require a very strong pull to correct for it is also a good thing. If, on the other hand (so to speak), what is required is a better balanced boat, less weather helm, then that's where the centre of sail effort vs the centre of water resistance is important: sail balance, mizzen sail, main mast rake, etc. And reefing to prevent heeling as when heeling the centre of forward push of the sails is well off to the lee side pushing the bow to windward i.e. heeling causes significant extra weather helm. Swinging the keel aft a bit will reduce weather helm too.
I'm only recently back into sailing so I'm probably exhibiting the Dunning-Kruger effect, and teaching grandma etc etc, so excuse me. But I think when people talk about weather helm often people are talking about how hard must the pull be on the tiller to correct for it, rather than the oft-considered desirable tendency of the boat to weathercock into wind given e.g. a strong gust.
How hard one must pull on the tiller is not weather helm but rudder balance. And that is all to do with "the horizontal distance of the centre of effort of the rudder to its axis of rotation". Draw a line thru the rudder pins to find the axis of rotation. Adjust the rudder blade more forward of that line to reduce tiller effort. Adjusting that axis more vertical will have little effect on tiller effort. The primary adjustment to tiller effort is the position of the rudder blade relative the rudder axis, not the angle of the rudder axis relative the boat.
I think :-)
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I think PB, above, probably has the right basis. "Boat balance" (related to coe of ALL foils, above and below water) v "rudder balance"?
Perception of loads, "feedback", can also be an issue. I've regularly sailed a 1937 international 6m (sort of 40ft, mini J class style double ender) where anything more than the lightest touch of the tiller with one hand was an indication of something seriously wrong with sail trim.
Not necessarily a technical issue, in that these boats were built to be helmed by gentlemen who would not enjoy too much physical effort... they had chaps for that sort of thing!
The Supernova class had an issue, with a similar configuration of transom hung, pivoted rudder. May be interesting?See
https://www.supernovadinghy.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=979&sid=f9b1e8188e9c67cdf9606c15955124ca
GW. Your"modified stop" arrangement has to be worth a try,if only on a temporary/experimental basis?
You'd better get a yard slot booked ready for that lottery win. Regardless of cash, there seems to be increasing difficulties with supply of materials, and available men/machines ????
Last week's shortage here was steel rebar (nowt available) even ordinary timber is getting difficult at times.
I was in a large agricultural merchant's this week...they had ONE yard broom in stock!
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Paul, Simon
Thank you, I now understand that I have been confusing two separate issues - weather helm and the effort that needs to be expended through the tiller to correct weather helm. So it requires less force to steer when I have my flying jib hanging off the front because I’m on the cusp of lee helm. Without the flying jib, I’m fighting increased weather helm more than I need to because of imperfectly placed rudder pintles.
So you should draw a line through the rudder pintles to find the axis of rotation and then move the rudder blade more forward of that line to reduce tiller effort. With the old-style placement of the pintles, part of the rudder would need to be further forward than it is already, no doubt causing all sorts of other problems. Crude diagrams below, showing current set up on old BayRaiders (1), new set up (2) and possible ways of modifying the rudder rather than the pintles (3 and 4), neither of which are very practical.
Is the problem with the old-style pintle arrangement not only associated with the placement of the rudder relative to its axis of rotation but also with what the rudder is doing when the boat is heeled, or is that an entirely separate issue?
For example, you’re on a starboard tack and the boat is heeled to port. To counteract weather helm, you need to steer to port, pulling the tiller towards you as you sit on the starboard gunwale. This pivots the rudder blade towards port, which not only alters the boat’s course towards port but also tries to lift the stern out of the water. Is that lifting effect exacerbating the axis of rotation problem? And the greater the boat’s heel, the worse the attempted lifting effect gets, which is a reason for keeping the boat flat? Would the new pintle arrangement (2) also reduce the rudder’s attempt to lift the stern when heeled? Those are probably GCSE-level geometry questions but I did latin at school, and not from choice.
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That's a very good point, Graham, which I had not considered. With a non-vertical rudder axis then depending on the forward/backward angle turning the rudder will also tend to bury or lift the stern, and this problem will be worsened when heeled.
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Graham,
Have you considered the effect of the 'wings' on the Bayraider rudder where the step is halfway up. Increasing the forward angle of the rudder is likely to increase drag, I doubt if it would increase lift like a winged keel ! Heeling the boat also compounds the forces on the rudder and lee/weather helm.
I think the geometry of the existing rudder is probably best suited to have the leading edge vertical and the 'wings' horizontal. The rudder blade on 'CraiC' is elliptical and can be tilted forward and back with very noticeable effect on the 'weight' of the helm and maintaining a neutral feel on a steady course with the rig balanced. I am still not quite sure where is best, and have used 'stops' on the stock to prevent the rudder tilting too far forward.
A forward angled rudder acts as a very effective weed collector , and also acts as a much better brake if impaled on a mud or sandbank as it is more reluctant to rotate and lift .
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Andrew,
I can imagine a forward-angled rudder bursting off its pintles if it contacted a sandbank. And the existing rudder already has a passion for collecting bladder wrack without making things worse.
Winning the lottery it is, then.
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Graham,
When I bought "Pippin" (wooden Bayraider 20) she had the earlier forward hung rudder. As she needed considerable cosmetic work and all her hull fittings etc. were tired, when Matt suggested we cut the transom off and give her the new arrangement, I quickly agreed. As far as I know she is the only wooden Bayraider 20 to have been retrofitted. Two fingers on the helm in all conditions now. I highly recommend the change.
I will let you know if I ever put her up for sale. It probably won't be until after I have done another Sail Caledonia Raid with brothers and beaten Andrew in Craic, so don't hold your breathe!
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Mark,
When giving me the bad news on price, the yard told me that one wooden BR and one GRP BRe had been converted so far. Now I know who both of you are and it’s good to know that both are very satisfied with the modification.
I’ve never had a problem with quite fast tacking but I understand that the mod makes it even quicker. If fighting weather helm is to do with the rudder’s problematic axis of rotation rather than with the weather helm being excessive, then is progress to windward any faster? And a cruising question, does the mod’s lighter steering mean that it’s easier or harder to keep a hands-free fixed course relative to the wind using a tiller tamer? I managed to get it to work well on my heavy old style set up, out at sea and with a steady wind.
Once I’ve won the lottery (any day now) I’ll be able to start assembling a kettle of my own swallows.
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"For example, you’re on a starboard tack and the boat is heeled to port. To counteract weather helm, you need to steer to port, pulling the tiller towards you as you sit on the starboard gunwale. This pivots the rudder blade towards port, which not only alters the boat’s course towards port but also tries to lift the stern out of the water. Is that lifting effect exacerbating the axis of rotation problem? And the greater the boat’s heel, the worse the attempted lifting effect gets, which is a reason for keeping the boat flat? Would the new pintle arrangement (2) also reduce the rudder’s attempt to lift the stern when heeled? Those are probably GCSE-level geometry questions but I did latin at school, and not from choice."
Steve Cockerill of Rooster Sailing used to have a very good talk on this topic in his "boat whisperer" series of talks and videos. Using a Laser dinghy as an example.
I think youre right GW. The essence seemed to me to be...keep the boat flat!
Just did a quick search, but unable to find this video now.
Not sure if he still tours doing his Whisperer talks (covid aside, of course) but I've been to two of his events and they are excellent.
Good mid-winter fund raisers for any SC too!
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I am following this thread with great interest.
when I bought my BC20, one of the features I disliked was the rudder as discussed above.
I could find no reference to altering it so I sketched out a design idea that I propose to set in motion
attached should be three sketches.
one is a sketch of a stainless fabricated / bent bracket that should bolt to the existing pintle and gudgen bolt holes. This bracket then provides the vertical orientation I am seeking.
I would need to alter the angle of the tiller and I propose to have made, by Mat, a shallower balanced rudder blade i.e. with some blade in front of the vertical pivot line.
I would b very interested in your thoughts.
Another issue that I would like improved is the horizontal angle through which the tiller moves. It seems to hit the cockpit seats before getting a decent angle. I am planning to work on this...
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Just for the record.: Since 2005, I never saw a problem with the forward tilted rudderblade of my Swallowboats. On the contrary, I love it, it makes the boat turn quicker. In one regatta in the Netherlands I -almost- crashed the boat because of friction in the rudderhead I could not get the rudderblade full down and forward, so the boat was sluggish going through the tacks at tacking up a narrow canal. -I will not modify my rudder for vertical hanging.
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The underwater photo below seems to show that my BR20’s rudder is canted forward, while the centreboard is perpendicular. It might explain why my steering is not quite so heavy as has been reported by some others.
Presumably it would be possible to lighten the steering still further by canting the rudder even further forward. This could be achieved by grinding it down by a small amount where the top of the rudder abuts the front of the stainless stock - the arrowed straight bit between the two pintles, as in the second photo. Unlike major surgery on the transom, this modification would be easy to reverse with epoxy if it was found to be a step too far.
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Hi Graham, Graham here....
Interesting to see your experience with slightly less weather helm ....from the increase in forward inclination, over and above the angle of the transom.
This is my experience from years setting up other dinghy's
i.e. Try to get some blade forward of the pintle/ gudgeon line if you can.
Somewhat disappointing that the "step" is no longer horizontal...
Matt gets a lot right.
On the other issue being discussed.
It has always been my view that the pintle/gudgeon line should be vertical from an engineering fluid dynamics point of view. I therefore assume the sloping transom is purely for aesthetics
Cheers
Graham B
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Graham,
I’ve got an industrial-sized belt sander on my new (very old) Shopsmith that would make short work of changing the canting angle at the top of the rudder. I wouldn’t make a radical change, so I wouldn’t change the step angle by much either. And I also have additional steps built in to the top of my stainless rudder stock.
What I don’t know is how to recoat the bit that has been sanded down, which I assume needs doing. White gelcoat?
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Hi, recoating the sanded part? I too would be thinking gel coat...but... it depends what / or if you break through into something else. Foam or Ply presumably.
Let us know !
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it depends what / or if you break through into something else. Foam or Ply presumably.
I hope not! I had thought from its substantial weight that it must be solid GRP.
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No Graham, not solid GRP, but a wooden core. How do I know? Well, driving a couple of miles with the tip of the rudder dragging on the road, some idiot ( moi ! ) having failed to make sure it was properly secured in the fully up position before setting off, nicely exposed the cross section, losing about 6" off the rudder tip. I gouged out some of the core, enough to put in a new piece, then covered that in a few layers of glass fibre, and finally a layer of white gelcoat, which I then laboriously sanded down. You can hardly see the join, but the rudder tip is not quite standard shape!
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Mmmm. In which case, I might take a rain check on this. Thanks for the warning.
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To my insensitive touch I've always felt the rudder balance and the turning circle on my BR20 is just fine and needs no modification.
Altering the rudder angle-of-dangle might have knock-on effects:
a) loss of area in front of the pivot line will change the balance and increase tiller forces - tiring and less sensitive feedback
b) the combined centreboard and rudder centre of area might move aft and this could mean less natural weather helm, in other words the natural tendency for the boat to head into wind if the tiller is let go. This is a generally considered a desirable safety feature. For more on this see https://www.nauticed.org/sailing-blog/weather-helm-vs-lee-helm-%E2%80%93-what-is-it-how-to-use-it/
I accept that mast rake, sail setting, centre board angle and many other factors come into play and so moving the rudder centre of area may not be very significant.
It's good to experiment but Graham's right to be cautious before making difficult-to-reverse changes.
Matthew
BR20
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Newer versions of both boats now have a different configuration. This involves a new moulding inset into the stern, allowing the rudder to be hung vertically. Those who have sailed both versions say that it lightens the helm considerably and allows for much faster tacking. And presumably if you’re not fighting weather helm, it also provides faster progress to windward. ...
I very much doubt the above claims "lightens the helm" and " faster tacking". Could this be a marketing stunt to make customers believe they need to upgrade to the new BR20 Mk. 2 boats in order to stay competitive? Like previously the "USA rig" replacing the Gunter Rig?
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Silly me! I had thought that this thread was harmless lockdown speculation on rudder pintle angles. Something to ponder and entertain until sailing was allowed again, based on empirical observation and engineering expertise among several contributors.
It now appears that we were the unwitting dupes of a conspiracy by evil capitalists to make us upgrade our boats. Even worse, they’ve tried it on before with the USA rig, clearly named after an industrial-military complex bent on world domination.
Luckily we have forum contributors who are not susceptible to mind games. They have tested in real life either or both of these modifications. They may even have been sober when they did so, which was a bonus. They then reported back on the good and not so good. Setting aside the pain in the wallet, it was mostly the former.
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Matthew P provided a link to a Nauticed post, which suggested the lift from a rudder being used to counteract weather helm would help the boat to get further upwind. I am afraid I don't understand that as surely the rudder lift will only affect the stern of the boat and turn it toward the wind rather than lift the whole hull up to windward? What am I missing? Also , the increase in drag from the rudder will slow the boat, and allow more leeway. My own preference is to go for enough weather helm to be safe, but as little as possible beyond that.
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I sailed Skylark for many years before having the 'cut and shut' and my only complaints about the handling were the curved path it took through the tack and having to fight the tiller in strong winds. When I had the opportunity to sail a new version BRe I noticed the difference immediately.
Since having the surgery done on Skylark, I can report that it now turns sharply in the tack and has retained all the required weather helm to weathercock if I let go of the tiller. In stronger winds, I used to have to hold the tiller directly (rather than the tiller extension) due to the weight on the helm - which further increased the boat's desire to turn into the wind as I could no longer sit out to keep the boat flat. Now, as the wind increases, I can continue to perch on the side deck (never a comfortable experience) holding the tiller extension lightly between my finger tips.
All I need to do now is persuade Matt to shave the coaming off around the cockpit to make sitting out more comfy ;D ;D
Helen
BRe #15 Skylark
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After 14 years of BR20s, there may be reasons to come out with a Mk. II version. But they better be good and compelling because they broadly diminish the resale value of the "Mk.1" boats.
To change the hull for a new rudder arrangement just to aid people who struggle with weatherhelm is -on its own- not a good enough reason. Rudders cannot make miracles. Mastrake and centreboard angle are there for managing weatherhelm. As is timely reefing btw.
Just a handful of people know about the depth of my involvement with Swallowboats at the time. I started the "Raiders". I not just gave them their name.
The project was started about a perfect "Raidboat". A boat to excel -safely- in tough competition, through thick and thin, offshore and inshore, using sail, oars, and every seamanly trick in the book. Part of raiding is to be able to strike down the masts in a jiffy to proceed under oars into a headwind, through under bridges and overhanging trees, if required. The original Gunter Rig of the BRs could do that, the Bermudan rig that SwY introduced later, to better attract a U.S. clientele who do not know how to use or care for a Gunter, cannot.
Yeah, why not collect more suggestions and ideas from experienced BR sailors for a really improved BR20 Mk II version?
-The new vertical rudder arrangement may well be part of that.
C.
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At the risk of adding to the confusion, some of you will remember I had two BayCruiser 23's Vagabond (#10) and Riff Raff (#54). Vagabond had the rudder pivots following the line of the transom and, as originally rigged, had vicious weather helm and a terrible tendency to wander off course under power in marinas, leading to a number of narrow escapes. She was also very slow in the tack, particularly in light airs. After a year of so, I retrofitted the spreader rig and also reduced the rake of the mast. The result was a much more docile vessel as far as weather helm was concerned but the turning circle and tacking were no better. By raking the mast forward I found i coudl introduce lee helm and don't recommend it!
Riff Raff had the vertical rudder (as well as the spreader rig) and was a different vessel. The turning circle was much reduced and she was nimble across the wind - I can't remember getting into irons with her. I didn't have her long enough to experiment with mast rake.
So my vote is for the vertical rudder!
Helen, try a thich foam cushion - you can buy sheets of closed cell foam on Ebay. This foam, having closed cells doesn't act like a sponge. You can cut it into rectangles (using a old fashioned carving knife) and glue them (copydex) together to make up a thick, solid cushion to take the pain out of the cockpit edge. If you drill a hole at one end of the rectangle, you can put a rope through it so that (a) you don't lose the cushion and (b) you can use it as a fender!
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At the risk of adding to the confusion, some of you will remember I had two BayCruiser 23's Vagabond (#10) and Riff Raff (#54). Vagabond had the rudder pivots....
Yes that adds to the confusion talking about a BayCRUISER 23 in a thread about the BayRAIDER (20).
I personally don't know the first thing about the BayCruiser 23, but I know some about the BayRaider and SeaRaider, which I -both- sailed and raced for 14 years. IMO and experience, both seaRaider and BayRaider do not require a vertical hung rudder, and if used as Raidboats should not have a Bermudan rig which prohibits striking down the mast in mid race in a jiffy.
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One of the joys of a mizzen is it can easily be adjusted to correct weather or lee helm or to extract the boat from irons. I never had weather or lee helm problems on my BR20. Mizzens can also be used as an "aerial" rudder, a vital feature on a scary trimaran I owned that lacked rudder power, unlike my friendly BR20, .
My BR20 is gunter rigged. I just wonder if the fat-head Bermudan rig has a centre of pressure aft of the gunter rig and is therefore susceptible to weather helm - or needs looser mizzen sheeting to compensate?
Matthew
BR20 Gladys
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Or more sail at the pointy end?
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My BR20 is gunter rigged. I just wonder if the fat-head Bermudan rig has a centre of pressure aft of the gunter rig and is therefore susceptible to weather helm ....
Good point. Mine is Gunter rigged too. And never a sail balance problem with that, except that it had to be modified from the original to become usable, of course. C.
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Why 'of course'?
Thanks
John
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"There be three things which are too wonderful for me, yea, four which I know not:
The way of an eagle in the air; the way of a serpent upon a rock; the way of a ship in the midst of the sea; and the way of a man with a maid."
Proverbs 30
While science attempts to answer these (Froud and Reynolds numbers anyone ??? ?) I sometimes prefer a more mysterious, poetic explanation. To me boats have personality and that's why I like them.
Matthew
BR20 Gladys
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Why 'of course'?
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Hi John.
The original BR Gunter rig on the early boats was practically unusable. It was derived from the Drascombes, where it worked, but there were specific problems for the SR and the BR which were not addressed and solved by the yard for a considerable time. I am not sure they have ever.
: The Gunter yard jaws twisted sideways to windward when the boat sailed close hauled. Likewise, in connection with the square mast, the jaws jammed going up and down.
The carbon yard was not drilled through for the halyard as it was feared the hollow yard could be flooded through the holes during an inversion. Then, the carbon yard material was too whippy for its length. The luff could not be tensioned enough with the mast foot fitting supplied. Then, the yard was geared to be top-heavy, so went up and came down in a messy way. And, worst, the reefing was not prepared for properly.
And btw, the boats came without a boat manual for a considerable time, which may have offered solutions.
All this needed to be fixed of course, and could be fixed with very little effort. Only, the boatyard was slow to adopt what was needed. I think they brought the USA (Bermudan) rig out instead of perfecting the Gunter rig which would have been easier and less costly. Sadly, the USA rig has done away with two keywords for the BR: "Classic looks" - which the fat top Bermudan doesn't have, and "Raider", because the tall mast Bermudan rig cannot be struck down quickly as is required in many proper raids.
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Ah now Science has been catching up of late and yes Froud and Reynolds certainly have their place, I recommend the AC75 as an example. But poetry and beauty have much more sway with me. Hence a Gaff rig - addresses the 'Classic Looks' 2 foresails - addresses the balance, upwind ability and of course red sails.
I also had heavier weather helm than I was used to on skiffs and single handed dinghies. This we addressed by lifting the center board a touch with increased wind speed and marked the board accordingly.
The BRe has the setting of its' center board angle by tying a knot in the lifting rope which runs up against an eye. This is far to vague a measure (although the yard do measure this very carefully) but to prone to rope stretch and fiberglass panel deformation etc..
I careened Papagena and measured the angle of the centerboard and found it to be 80 degrees from the runners. By sailing her in light airs I found the right angle and tied a knot in the uphaul. Well twas another variable and 10 20 who knows how many iterations later spot on. Now I lift a little for medium wind strengths and more when strong. But of course it is a a bit of trial and error each time but I didn't have to adjust mast rake each time or rudder pintle or cant angles - seriously easier and more immediate. Perhaps the original knot variability might account for different experiences with these boats?
So no 'American' rig for me but Gaff for beauty and much more Eagle, Serpent, Seas and Maids for me ..... :D
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I careened Papagena and measured the angle of the centerboard and found it to be 80 degrees from the runners. ...
Tim:
Thanks for that detail. I had found the same angle on my BRE and thus far thought it was just an oversight by the boatyard. But it now seems to be done deliberately, possibly to compensate for the weatherhelm induced by the USA rig.
: My BRE came with the standard USA rig. I took that off and put a BR Gunter rig on her, with the usual BR mast rake approx. equalling the mizzen mast rake. But then I had leehelm in light wind, with the board all down, and found that odd, because I did not ever have leehelm on the BR.
Because I also had too much friction in the c/board uphaul (caused by a mismatch between uphaul diameter and through-deck eye fitting), I opened the c/board case and found a stopper knot in there preventing the c/board from going down full vertical, instead keeping it at approx. 80 degrees from the runners. I fixed that, allowing the board to go down vertically, and that gave the boat back a light weatherhelm in light wind. Perfect. As you do, I manage the weatherhelm by adjusting the board, and then by reefing to the 1st. reef.
So for me the issue is becoming clearer: The BR was designed and balanced for the original Gunter rig sailplan. With that, the boat sailed OK. But the practicability of the Gunter rig was neglected and when it came to exporting to the U.S. the prospective US buyers (resp. the US importer) did not relish the unrefined Gunter. Up came the USA (Bermudan) rig, but which puts the point of sail effort a bit further aft, for which the hull was not designed originally, and so causing the boat to be become windwardly, which was first controlled by a standard c/board tilting to aft, but for which now that new hull and rudder angle modification is being introduced, which makes us old BayRaider owners from now on owners of "the OLD BayRaider".
:-\
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Aha that makes sense. By the same logic "the old BayRaider" has become the ancient BayRaider sailed by the ancient mariner ;D
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Other than a bit of lightening of the tiller (but the cut and shut operation is too expensive for me) and perhaps slab reefing at the aft end of the mainsail (easy and cheap), I think that I may have run out of ways that I could improve Turaco. Like Matthew’s Gladys, she’s gunter-rigged and a lady of a certain age. With her twin masts and tan-coloured sails, she draws attention wherever she goes. She’s been modified in numerous subtle ways, most of them inspired by postings on this forum. Her more radical improvements (long plank bowsprit with a choice of foresails, mizzen staysail, electric propulsion, beautiful long wooden oars) are fittings rather than fixtures and could be used on any BR20. Like her skipper, I think she’s becoming less interested in competitive raiding and will be cruising more in the future. Also like her skipper, she dislikes being described as “old”. In any case as she is definitely not for sale, any such designation is irrelevant.
Thanks for the discussion on centreboard angles. I’ve never really tried anything other than up for downwind, down for upwind and down a bit for rowing/motoring, so there’s something new to try this season.
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An amusing thread to tide us over during lockdown with all sorts of speculations!
Classic Folkboats and Contessas have enjoyed sloping rudders for donkey's years and they don't have the luxury of centreplates to further adjust trim. I have the original sloping rudder on my BRe and unlike some reports above I actually had lee helm in light weather making the boat slow to tack. On my second Falmouth Raid a sailmaker pointed out that two of the BRe masts were sloping slightly forward compared to the others in the marina. Sure enough one of them was ours; the other was much worse! On correcting the rake to just slightly aft of vertical the problem was fixed to just a nice small amount of weather helm for the boat to be responsive. That slight rake aft suits the boat and just looks right on the water - any slight forward rake looks odd once aware of the issue. Looking back at my notes: take a tape up to the top of the mast with the main halyard and cleat the halyard so that the tape measures 21' 2" (6450mm) to the gooseneck. Then take the cleated tape back to the top of the transom - my original - as supplied - measurement was 28' 1" (8560mm). I adjusted the mast back so that the distance became 27' 10" (8484mm) . Not a huge change needed but made all the difference. I'll check all these again!
The other big issue mentioned above is the angle of dangle of the centreplate which is controlled by the block system under the Sikoflexed-down (crazy idea!) timber top plate. First job with any BRe is to tease of the top-plate off and check the settings are at least to the factory drawings - there is a critical 510mm block to block measurement on the BRe. I've just replaced the main rope into the head of the centreboard so as I don't know how close my c/b was originally to this critical measurement, I'll go back to 510mm and make adjustments if weather helm not correct in light weather. (We put top plate back on with a self-adhesive rubber seal strip to make further adjustments and routine maintenance easier.)
So really, whatever rudder type you have, there is sufficient range of adjustment in mast rake and centreplate to get the weather helm to your liking. I've been to four Falmouth Raids and have never noticed any difference in boat speeds between the two rudder types - any differences I'm sure would be easily swamped by crew skill factor, boat trim, crew energy(!).
Ray S
BRe 047 'Whimbrel'
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Here is image of the BRe centreboard drawing with the critical 510mm measurement.
Warning - if CB allowed to go down too far down and past 90 degrees to a forward pointing position and then you hit something hard the CB pin can be pushed upward through its supporting timber battens! It has happened on a BRe 'as supplied'. So all measurements should be checked - even on new boats!
Ray S
BRe 047 'Whimbrel'
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any differences I'm sure would be easily swamped by crew skill factor, boat trim, crew energy(!)
Willing crew members slaving over long oars are hard to beat!
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... So really, whatever rudder type you have, there is sufficient range of adjustment in mast rake and centreplate to get the weather helm to your liking. I've been to four Falmouth Raids and have never noticed any difference in boat speeds between the two rudder types - any differences I'm sure would be easily swamped by crew skill factor, boat trim, crew energy(!).
Ray S
BRe 047 'Whimbrel'
Exactly. So why did they introduce the new transom and rudder at all?
Again, bringing out the new Mk. 2 BR affects / diminishes the resale value of the original BRs.
C.
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Having got my BRe in Spring 2016 it was a bit of a surprise to see the modified rudder at the Southampton Boat Show later that year. (Might have been 2017). On the stand they told me it was to produce a tighter turning circle especially under engine, but that in practice it made little difference. I checked today with my trusty Breton Plotter and confirmed that you can indeed push the tiller over an additional 9 degrees on a newer Bre as compared with the older boats. So that is the reason for the change which really has little effect on anything, after all you can steer with the engine as well as the tiller for a tighter turn. The new rudder has potentially more braking effect when tacking though!
Ray S
BRe Whimbrel 047
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... I checked today with my trusty Breton Plotter and confirmed that you can indeed push the tiller over an additional 9 degrees as compared with the older boats. So that is the reason for the change which really has little effect on anything, after all you can steer with the engine as well as the tiller for a tighter turn. The new rudder has potentially more braking effect when tacking though!
Ray S
BRe Whimbrel 047
Correct. The rudder is not what propels the boat, and a bigger rudder angle will have a bigger braking effect if used inexpertly.
So they are doing this since 2016 / 2017? -Well, I never .. ::)
C.
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Since making my post regarding the surgery to ‘Pippin’, in which I mentioned that the yard had cut into her stern and fitted the more recent rudder hanging, I have bought a second Bayraider 20 which is GRP, and which I shipped to California.
‘Kelpie’ is a 10 year old GRP boat in good condition but with her original Dolphin sails. In contrast to the wood boat she has no hard chine, so is a very different hull shape, and is also considerably heavier. (328kg to 550kg).
‘Pippin’ has the very slightest weather helm which never increases as she heels over; two finger steering in all conditions. Perfect!
In contrast ‘Kelpie’ develops considerable weather helm as soon as she is not flat. Whether this is the difference in hull shape, or the difference in rudders, I have no idea. I suspect it is some of both.
Both boats have near identical rigs although the previous owner slightly reduced the length of the gunter yard on “Kelpie” so that it clears the mizzen when dropped. The loss of mainsail sail area forward of the centre of resistance of the board is absolutely minimal as the main was recut with a top batten and a slight roach, so I don’t think this is a factor.
Here in Northern California, on Tomales Bay, GRP ‘Kelpie’ sometimes sails in company with “Dancing Otter”, Bayraider hull number 2, and wood. She was fortunately bought from her original owner in Oregon by close my friends, Jim and Ashley. They sailed on “Pippin” at Mylor some years ago and were determined to track down a wood Bayraider and got lucky.
There is no doubt that the wood boat, even with the old rudder arrangement, points higher and goes faster than the GRP boat. (At least that’s what I tell Jim every time he beats me to windward!). And she is light on the helm, which tends to suggest that the hull shape, at least when heeled to windward, has a lot to do with the weather helm.
To throw in a bit of a curve ball; my new Baycruiser 23, with a hull more similar to the wood Baycruiser in that it has a chine, and the newer more vertical hung rudder, is perfectly balanced.
So, if I too win the lottery, I would modify the stern of ‘Kelpie’ but would still expect to have to sail her flat to avoid weather helm due to her rounder sections amidship.
Every boat that I have ever owned or sailed with a bit of a belly amidships, has needed to be sailed flat to avoid weather helm and track straight. The IOR ‘rule beaters’ of the 70s and 80s were classic fatties; they rounded up in a gust and, terrifyingly, rounded down when leaning to windward with blooper, often dumping a few crew in the process!
These boats are worth the constructive criticism. As you can tell, I think they are great!
Fair Winds,
Mark
P.S. “Pippin” might come on the market after the Caledonia Raid, but only if we are successful in sailing with 3 brothers on board, an aim we have just missed in the past three entries due to life (and pandemic) getting in the way.