Swallow Yachts Association
Swallow Yachts Forum => Home Builders' Area => Topic started by: Michael Rogers on 10 Jan 2011, 14:16
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A bit of thinking ahead here, because I haven't even started my (second) build. However, whiling away the time until my kit is ready....
Two questions (I think it's two) - 1) does anyone have experience of two-pot finishes they wouldn't mind sharing? I know they are more expensive, and I believe can be tricky to apply. For my present boat I used International Toplac, with appropriate primer and undercoat. It went on beautifully, has lasted well in most respects, and is easy to touch up. The latter is a good thing, because its abrasion resistance seems to be negligible, and normal/unavoidable contact with trailer parts, slipway surfaces, innocuous-looking pebbles etc leaves marks or scrapes. It would be worth a lot of effort in applying, and I could probably save some beer money to pay for, a more robust finish from this point of view.
2) Googling away re paints, I came across Jotun Marine. A new name to me. Does anyone know anything about them? ... used their paint?? A Norwegian company, they claim to be big internationally. Several things impressed me about the website. They give lots of easily accessed and coherent information, in marked contrast to other leading makes. They actually show you their range of colours (again in contrast...), which seems to be much bigger than the competition. And their paints are relatively remarkably cheap. Provided the quality is comparable, they would be an attractive proposition.
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Looking at paint for my Storm 15 in build, going for 2 pack international paint would be fairly expensive particularly if you want the top panel in another colour.
Enamels are quite a bit cheaper, but not as durable. I have used these on a canal boat. Ok I won't be hitting any locks in "Robin" my soon to be completed (I hope) Storm 15, and it won't rust, as long as I have pulled out all of the plain steel screws, but I think a 2 pack would be better.
I have bit the bullet and ordered some Jotun paint. I have gone for a litre of hardtop HB (satin finish) for the decks/insides, and hardtop flex, 1Lt white and 1Lt sapphire blue for the outside. The penguard HB primer is suitable for both (2.5L). As well as splashing out on a disposable repirator, came to about £150.
SML marine paints were very helpful in confirming that this was the best combination and delivered the following day (free).
I will let you know how I get on.
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Will be interested to know how you get on. I'll be needing paint soon but was thinking of going with standard paints rather than 2pk. I'm concerned about the fumes from 2pk and also wastage, by mixing twice as much as I need and having to throw it away or not mixing quite enough. Could be I just worry to much.
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Obviously, given my starter for this thread, i'll be interested in your progress too, Steve: particularly as you have chosen the paints I am minded to use, except I shall only use one outside hull colour, and I haven't decided on that yet. For a combination of reasons, I am lagging a bit behind with my build, and I won't be painting before October at the earliest. I'll have to set myself up to be painting indoors in the autumn/winter (which means heating bills etc, not to mention ventilation issues).
One comment/query - I had thought about adding non-slip granules to the paint for the decks and cockpit sole. Claus Riepe, somewhere else in this forum, had commented on how slippery the decks of his BR can become. Anyone any comments on this?
When you 'report back', Steve, could you deal with the fumes issue in your experience, and the effectiveness (or otherwise) of the respirator you've bought.
I hope it goes well. Andrew Denman, on the 'GRP or Ply?' thread, had some cunning-sounding professional tips on improving the final finish. You've probably seen them.
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Re the non-slip granules. I have used International non-slip additive on my cabin top and side decks and it works very well. Not so much granules more like very fine sand, and surprisingly cheap for once. I just use ordinary one coat Toplac paint, which is what the yard used originally. It seems perfectly durable and very easy to touch up. I usually give it a new coat each winter, and you can often get the paint cheaply at a boat jumble. Bent tins don't sell for full price, but the paint is still the same colour inside.
The non-slip additive gives a slightly rough surface which is much better than the plain paint finish for grip underfoot, without being rough on bare knees or feet. It is virtually invisible except under very close inspection. I also followed the yard's original scheme of mixing matting agent 50/50 with the ivory superstucture paint. This gives a very nice eggshell finish to the cabin, which contrasts nicely with the hull's high gloss and also looks much less plasticky.
Regarding worries about scratching pristine gelcoats. The best course of action is to go out and scratch it and then stop worrying about it and enjoy your sailing! All boats that are sailed are scratched and scraped.
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This is probably not going to be a very helpful tack (a purely unintentional metaphor which I'm quite pleased with) for this topic because choice of colours is very subjective and personal. Having said which.....
1) Is there any rationale to the widespread, almost universal use of white paint for decks and 'insides' of small sailing craft? And is there an 'acceptable' alternative?
2) Is white a practicable main colour for the outside of the hull, in terms of 'showing the dirt' etc?
3) Are there any practical issues (eg getting hot, or not, in the sun) in the choice between light and dark colours for the hull?
4) I won't need antifouling on my trailer/sailer dinghy but, particularly if I choose a lightish main hull colour, might it be both practical and smart to use a dark colour as faux antifouling (scrapes etc not showing so much)? I like a boat to look workmanlike rather than 'posh'.
5) How on earth do you mark out a waterline on a boat? I've often wondered but have assumed there is an obvious way (stupid), and haven't liked to ask because I have no idea!
In case I give the impression that an unknown rich benefactor has left me a fortune, I would just add that I'm aware of the cost implications of a variegated colour scheme, the cost of paint being what it is and the absence of small tins being a universal ploy to get us to have to buy more than we need.
(SP Cadenza + T12 in build)
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Regarding marking out the waterline, I can think of 2 options.
1) Put it in water and draw round with a waterproof marker.
2) Use one of the laser levels that spin and then mark from that.
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Re the non-slip granules. I have used International non-slip additive on my cabin top and side decks and it works very well. Not so much granules more like very fine sand, and surprisingly cheap for once. I just use ordinary one coat Toplac paint, which is what the yard used originally. It seems perfectly durable and very easy to touch up. I usually give it a new coat each winter, and you can often get the paint cheaply at a boat jumble. Bent tins don't sell for full price, but the paint is still the same colour inside.
The non-slip additive gives a slightly rough surface which is much better than the plain paint finish for grip underfoot, without being rough on bare knees or feet. It is virtually invisible except under very close inspection. I also followed the yard's original scheme of mixing matting agent 50/50 with the ivory superstucture paint. This gives a very nice eggshell finish to the cabin, which contrasts nicely with the hull's high gloss and also looks much less plasticky.
Regarding worries about scratching pristine gelcoats. The best course of action is to go out and scratch it and then stop worrying about it and enjoy your sailing! All boats that are sailed are scratched and scraped.
I have heard of Sugar being added to paint to give anti slip properties, not tried it myself but it may work!
Best to test theory on a cheap pot of paint I think first.
Personaly ,I used Exterior masonary paint on the decks of one of my boats,a perfect colour match for the cabin sides.
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Just painted the inside of my Storm15 with Jotun Penguard HB as a primer.
Initial appearance is deceptive. The main component is very runny, and hardener about the same as epoxy. Thinking this would spread out quite well I mixed up 375ml. However although it is fairly cold "up north", it gelled almost immediately when brushing which initially made a right mess. Pity I started on the fore deck.
The mixture also tends to dissolve foam paint brushes. They don't disintegrate but go very floppy. Had to trash one of my good paint brushes as an emergency measure.
Although the instructions say not to use a roller for first coat, I found that doing about 2 sq ft with roller then finishing off with the foam brush was the way to go, giving a nice smooth finish. Ended up using another 375ml to finish the first coat.
You will a respirator, even if painting outdoors at the main paint produces very strong fumes. The one from SML marine paints worked just fine. This is a 3M one and have seen the same elsewhere for over £25 (theirs is £11.95).
I will let you know how the top coats go.
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I feel I'm letting the side down here. I'm building a little plywood dinghy (not a Swallow Boat) and I've just painted most of it with Dulux Weathershield. Seems to have gone on very easily and you can wash the brush out with water...
Not entirely naive (but largely). I fitted a wooden bracket to the outisde of the washboards on my BayCruiser to hold GPS and compass. For want of any other paint I gave the wood two coats of said Dulux. I have just packed the boat up, ready for haul out, and I honestly couldn't see any difference between the dulux finish and the Toplac on the rest of the topsides after six months on a swinging mooring in Poole Harbour. I am seriously tempted just to use Dulux to overcoat the topsides over the winter. It will save me a fotune in ruined paintbrushes, if nothing else. Has anyone else used ordinary household paint on their boat?
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No,but I once inherited,from my mother-in-law,a rusty VW Beetle,-54 model.
We painted this bright blue with the sort of paint you use in the kitchen.This lasted perfectly well(in our climate,too!)for four years,until the car died of old age.
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Clem
Displaying my ignorance, what are 'laser levels that spin'? My look at such as Screwfix doesn't tell me. I see prices for laser levellers are, so to speak, various; these aren't the £500+ jobs, are they?
I put my waterline question to the UK HBBR forum (readily accessible) as well, and got an interesting reply involving nails and string and things, which I think I understand and might try as and when (not there yet) - unless 'spinning lasers' are a reasonable price and otherwise useful (acquiring tools for a particular boat-build application is often beguiling, but does add up: lets have a tool jumble).
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Think I mislead you with the spin. I've had a look and the ones I was thinking about and they are the laser levels that draw a line (think they use some sort of spinning mirror in them), they are the expensive ones though. Don't see why you couldn't use the cheaper rotary ones but you would have to mark the level, rotate the laser mark again etc. Might be able to hire one for a day which would work out cheaper.
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I would say that it's your boat and you can use what you like on it.
Maybe using a good oil based paint rather than water based would be a better idea though.
Living in North Yorkshire, my topsides could be considered to be below the waterline, so I'm using some decent marine paint to hopefully keep the wood underneath dry.
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Just given the inside of my storm 15 a coat of the Jotun Hardtop HB. When mixed this is a very runny consistency, but goes on quite well with a short pile roller. I think the coverage (8 sqM per ltr.) is based on spray application as I used the whole litre for one coat. It really needs another coat. Inside I left it as it was straight from the roller. This flattened down reasonably well to leave a slightly dimpled "hammerite" sort of finish. On the decks I tipped if off with a paintbrush. Overall I think it looks alright. Spraying would almost certainly be better but I am not geared up for this and I quite the the "homemade" look.
It will be interesting to see how it stands up to wear and tear. Watch for an update next October.
One suggestion, the Coast White which I went for has a slight blueish tint. This is fine for me as I went for Sapphire blue for the main colour. I couldn't differentiate between the whites on the web, so getting their colour chart may be a good idea.
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Steve,
Looks good to me.
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Did you spot the dead flies? I think they were dying when they flew into the fumes. Fortunately they just brushed off when the paint was dry. Having turned it over to start on the bottom I can now see all of the bits I missed when sitting underneath. I think I will paint round the undersides of the coamings etc whilst it is still upside down.
Hopefully not far away now.
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Don't gas yourself whilst underneath!
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Regarding the level of the waterline, the advice in one of Matt's Appendices for the BR is to allow the line to go up a bit towards the stern, otherwise it looks wrong.
I think you can see how that looks in this picture. http://www.swallowboats.co.uk/images/stories/swallowboats/bayraider/newport_bs_2011.jpg
The waterline is actually part way up the bottom panel, but the paint line has been lifted to meet the first chine line at the transom. Something similar may be necessary on the T12.
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Many people say you should raise the waterline towards the bow and stern. It does look good, but it has to be done well and is not easy. It needs to be a curve, not a straight line. Couple that with the changing shape of the hull, whose sides are fairly vertical at the front, rounded in the middle and possibly close to horizontal at the stern, and it is really hard. That's why I have always stuck to a pretty straight line, which doesn't look so good, but doesn't draw attention to itself either.
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Hmmm, thank you, Anthony and Julian. It all sounds a bit complicated to me, and because I don't actually NEED a waterline on my little boat, I'll put the idea on a back burner and revisit it nearer The Time, whatever and whenever that is. My build has stalled anyway (for reasons explained elsewhere, but I can't remember now which thread), so I have plenty of time to think about it. I asked for ideas about marking a waterline on the HBBR forum (that sentence is open to mildly comic interpretation and may not be as grammatically correct as I intended) as well, and got a helpful reply - boat dead level, pins, string, swapping strings across etc. It's all there, but under the 'eco' section of the HBBR forum because I got slightly lost (their webmaster may move it to the 'builds in progress' section at some point).
[Talking of webmasters, and knowing what my use of inverted commas will look like on this post, I wonder if there is ANY chance of this forum being rid of the plague of ////////s which disfigure all our attempts to write elegantly and fluently?! Just a thought, with a tinge of exasperation.]
Your comments about your (= Daisy Grace's) waterline, Julian, had me searching elsewhere for pictures of your lovely boat. I think I see what you mean. The eye does funny things, doesn't it. Did you know (said he boringly) that the centres of the 'horizontal' lines at the top of the columns on the long sides of the Parthenon are actually about 9 ins above horizontal, otherwise they would appear to sag in the middle. (Clever lot, those Greeks, perhaps they were good at waterlines on their triremes etc as well). Matt advises tapering the T12's gunwale slightly at both ends, which he says greatly improves the appearance - presumably a similar sort of effect. Actually, I won't be doing that because I plan a rope fender round the gunwale which I obviously can't taper. Which brings me back to my faux antifouling, which is where I came in (and which I think would go well with the rope fender) ... and so on, round the mulberry bush.
Michael
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Ahem. PS The offending thingies on the forum are of course s, not ///////s. Apologies for the error.
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Thanks Clem, fortunately I have survived. Think I have stumbled on a better way to paint the inside though, so much easier than trying to do it with the boat upright and apart from an un-intended contact between head and centreboard case, much more comfortable.
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I'm reviving this thread because - having started it way before any wisdom in it could be of immediate relevance to my build, and having been held up since by non-fitting parts - the time is not far off when I will need to buy in my paint etc. I am a great believer in learning from others' experience, and even mistakes if they are willing to share them!
Have any of you who have two-pack painted any comments to pass on? Steve, on balance how would you summarise your experience? And, incidentally, what about this painting-the-inside discovery of yours?! - does it work, and how did you do it?
I've come across a smallish paint company called HMG, based in Liverpool. Has anyone out there used any of their paints? They have a website like Fort Knox with passwords, which they dish out, needed just to look. They have a HUGE range of finishes, including marine stuff, which they rate highly ("It must be good, even the adverts speak highly of it", as an old lady remarked in years gone by). They combine lots of incomprehensible technical terminology with an apparent reluctance to provide handy info such as who stocks their paint and how much it costs. Their so-called "On-line Shop", reached via Facebook (whither I have never ventured before) is a joke. Funny (peculiar) way to try to sell paint, but I might look further into it just in case it's good value.
Incidentally I have ditched two ideas for my boat, which came to me when I had too much time to think rather than get on, and which I aired on this thread. One is a rope fender (too fiddly, and surprisingly expensive); the other my faux antifouling - effectively two-colour painting involving establishing a waterline, which you have collectively persuaded me is not easy to do on a small boat, and which would have worked out more expensive. However I am developing some ideas on rubbing strips which I can outline if anyone's interested.
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Hi Michael, sounds like the build is progressing now. Hope all of your parts are fitting together well.
HMG paints in Liverpool.. hmmm. I wonder if its a case of "any colour you like as long as it's matt green or battleship grey"?
re two pack paints, mixing even small amounts wasnt a problem. They are a bit smelly but that soon wears off. Applying with a brush was at best difficult. The paint is very thin in the pot but very quickly gels making it hard to keep a wet line. If you have to brush it, applying with a roller and quickly going over lightly with a brush gives a reasonable finish although you can see it is brush painted. Doing it again I think I would hire some spray equipment. Having used enamels on a canal boat before it was much easier to get a very smooth finish with a brush so if I was doing it again I think I would stick to these.
As for painting the inside I just found it easier to sit under the boat supported on stands rather than stretching to paint the bottom planks. the main advantage was being able to ensure that the parts you cant normally see get some paint. I imagine that the bigger the boat, the greater the back pain saved.
Have you got any pictures on your Trooper?
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Michael and Steve,
You can get really good results with two pack rolling and tipping. Most two pack paints are designed for spraying and , as you have found out, they set up really fast and it is hard or nigh on impossible to maintain a wet edge.
A lot of two packs can be rolled/tipped successfuly if you use a thinner that will retard or slow the cure so the paint will flow out. Talk with your paint supplier or manufacturer about this. Some two packs are specifically designed for brushing and this is how they achieve it.
for some techniques have a look at http://youtu.be/ZgttasrdEvc
If you have enough paint on the boat, you can always wet sand with 1500grit/2000 grit wet and dry paper and follow up with a cut and polish compound to get rid of the brush marks. Bit more work but a spray like finish.
regards,
Andrew
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Thanks Andrew, I think I just need more practice.
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Andrew, your comments, as always, are helpful. A logical extension of the approach outlined in your final paragraph might be to roll an extra top coat on, without bothering too much about tipping with a brush (for any of the top coats?), and then finish off as you suggest. Drawbacks would be extra time and extra cost (a bit more than the traditional ha'p'orth of tar), arguably both worth it in the long term. However I'm not really in a position to comment further until I've actually had a go at this two-pot stuff! A few weeks down the line still, but I'm getting there. I was reflecting the other day that, with at least some of the 'skills' involved in kit boat building, you don't get more than one (sometimes two) goes at it, and you'd do it better the next time which won't happen, at least with this particular boat. This being my second build, some of the learning curves haven't been as steep as they would otherwise have been.
Steve, your very reasonable request for pics of my build was bound to come from someone! It fills me with a kind of panic because I haven't mastered the electronic faffing involved, which makes me feel a bit silly compared with all you younger-sters. However, I'll try: don't hold your breath, but watch this space.I MUCH prefer boat-building to IT.
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Youngster? Thanks Michael, not been called that for a long time.
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I started this thread way back, when in some ways I had no real reason to. For various reasons my build (Trouper 12) has taken much longer than I had planned or hoped. However I am now painting - at last.
Like Steve I'm using Jotun two pot paints, and it's been interesting. Using information I picked up from the (very helpful) people at Shepherd Marine (who sell Jotun), this forum and the HBBR forum, I've worked on the principle of adding 10% thinners and putting lots of coats on, mainly with rollers, without too much concern for the smoothness of the finish; and then taking back with fine sandpaper to get a smooth finish. With the Penguard epoxy primer that was 4 coats on the bottom and decks, 3 inside the hull, and using mainly 600 grade paper. It's worked a treat.
The Hardtop AS (high gloss) on the bottom and HB (semigloss) on decks and inside is in progress. There are 5 coats of AS on the outside of the hull, and I'm doing the decks etc now (probable three coats planned0, before getting down to the final finishing. Alternating between the two, as one must with turning the boat over, means that each stage when finished has a week or so to cure before being finally finished off (see below). Quantities, in case this helps others to work this out - for my beamy 12 footer, 5 litres of primer and 2 1/2 litres of each of the colours, plus the relevant primers (which are different), has been just enough, including doing the rudder, dagger board etc. Colours - I chose green for the hull (which has turned out a bit 'brighter' than the British Racing Green of my Storm Petrel, but I think will be OK): and 'light sand' for the semigloss (as I hoped, this turns out to be a rather pleasant cream colour). There is also some hardwood to be clear-coated - I'm going to use Seacoat.
One reason for reporting back is because I'd be grateful for some detailed advice about grades of wet-and-dry for the final stage. This is following Andrew Denman's advice (reinforced by someone on the HBBR forum with experience of it) to wet-and-dry smooth, and finally polish with T-Cut. I've never used wet-and-dry (I have had to use T-Cut on various cars over the years!). What grades should I use? - I know it comes in grit grades in the 1000s. Presumably one works with a bucket of water to hand, and frequent dipping? Any other tips from Andrew and other experts would be VERY gratefully received.
Just out of interest (or dis-interest, more likely), I abandoned my (rather silly) idea, floated somewhere earlier in this thread, of a waterline and faux-antifouling. Daft, that was.
Last year, somewhere in the Forum, I reported on problems arising from sharing my boat-building space with nesting swallows. They're back, and the first brood (four, same as last year) have just fledged. Prior to their arrival this Spring, I suspended a tarp as a false ceiling for them to function above, and me below. I managed access arrangements and flight paths which the swallows adapted to without complaining (to me), and we've co-existed very amicably. There were also long-eared bats last year using part of the building as a communal nursery: I haven't seen them so far this year (no, I did nothing to discourage them, which would be illegal and against all my instincts).
The rain has been something else.....
Michael
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sounds like you are doing an exceptional job Michael.