Swallow Yachts Association
Swallow Yachts Forum => General Discussion => Topic started by: Simon Knight on 08 Dec 2008, 09:02
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I am thinking of changing from a Drascombe Coaster to a Swallow boats BayRaider/Cruiser and am interested in opinions on the advantages of having or not having a cabin. The cabin I have at present tends to get used as a place to dump everything, it blocks the view and adds weight in the wrong place. It also provides an excellent place to fall from while tending sails etc.
Does the Bayraider make a good sail/camper or should I be saving for the cruiser?
Your thoughts please.
best wishes
Simon
Coaster Carpe Diem
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Simon,
I had a Coaster and sold it after one season. It was as you say.
Worst for me was that it was unusable for Raids due to the small cockpit and the poor rowing. Also didn't work with the dog in the cockpit.
I recommend not to save up & wait the BayCruiser, better get the cheaper BayRaider straightaway and make that comfy for casual overnighting. The Raider has huge dry storage under the hinged side benches for tent, air mattresses, cooker and overnighting stuff, plus huge space under the foredeck. Do order the sprayhood, that alone is already half the rent. For overnighting, you bring the gaff yard down horizontally over the cockpit, it is long enough to bridge the gap between main mast and mizzen mast. Over that you can -simplest and cheapest solution) spread a simple ready-made rectangular tarpaulin from the DIY store, with four small sandbags in the corners (or tie the oars as weight) which hang outside the hull. For complete comfort and closing to aft you can cut a single slit in the tarpaulin for the mizzen mast, and that will close the tent to aft.
For inside, you just need to cut two short pieces of plywood to bridge the width between the side benches (These pieces too can be stored in the side compartments) and then you have more than ample beds for two adults. You sleep with the feet to forward.
Additionally, smaller children could sleep on the floor in the aft end of the cockpit, but for more comfort you would just need some more plywood slabs to make two more extra large beds there. Space is there enough.
But once all the overnighting stuff has been taken down again, and disappeared in the lockers, the BayRaider has again full standing headroom, and that is what we like best and use 99% of the time.
Hope this helps your decision.
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Simon,
sorry I forgot:
I read that the Cruiser will not have a self tacking jib. That again would be a very strong point to choose the Raider in stead. A self tacking boat -and one that does self-tack reliably within one to two boatlengths from the pier wall- is too good to be missed.
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Hi, Simon.
Cabin v. boat tent? On a boat the size of the BR –and even more so on my smaller CBL - a cabin is never going to be big enough to actually live in for any length of time but for a night or two it can be made quite cosy. However, Claus is quite correct in everything that he says about the disadvantages of a cabin. There is a general loss of sailing performance compared to the open boat and, added to the loss of a self tacking jib, don’t forget the difficulty of anchoring and mooring from the bow, especially when single handed, the extra weight, windage and the reduced size of the cockpit.
I spent many holidays in my youth backpacking and cycle camping and learned that the experience can be made intolerable if you do not have the right gear. Purpose built equipment makes every job easier and well designed double skinned tents no longer flap, leak or fall about your ears in a wind. I have nothing against boat tents if they are well built - and good, waterproof lockers will look after your gear when you are actually sailing. A well designed boat tent should offer more accommodation for a given size of hull than any cabin.
On the other hand………
· The cabin is always there when you need it, sailing, on the road or parked up at a camp site. No fighting with wet canvas in a wind.
· You can fit it out to suit your own needs whether day sailing, over-nighting or camping aboard for a week or two.
· When sailing it offers a place for small children to rest or even sleep, protected from excess sun or wind.
· You have a smaller cockpit to get swamped in big seas. (Not that anyone actually intends to take a small boat into big seas!)
· A boat with a cabin is not just a sailing machine. You can be in it as well as on it.
· A cabin is a great place for “goofing off” between sails. Leisured lunches what ever the weather, moments of reflection on a summer evening, and the knowledge that a dry sleeping bag is just arms length away when the stars turn cold and brittle.
No. I wouldn’t swap the Four Sisters for an open boat what ever the disadvantages might be.
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I have been through all these thoughts and did plump for the BayCruiser with a cabin. I like having a permanent room I can use at any time, even if it does get in the way. My wife calls it my play house...
One of the things Matt and I have been discussing is how to avoid having to clamber onto the cabin roof in order to do anything to the sail. The final solution is not fully decided, but it looks likely to be a conventional Bermudian sail rather than a sliding gunter. Dealing with the yard from the cockpit would always be a potential problem. For ease of reefing, a conventional boom, possibly on a boom strut, may also be the answer.
Matt is still looking to have some form of self tacking jib, but not the balanced club. Again, time will tell how well this works. Once we have a Bay Cruiser afloat, I will post the experiences here. I cannot wait to get my hands on it!
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Thanks Claus, Tony & Julian for your very prompt and in-depth replies.
I think that while I have not made a final decision I am tending more towards an open boat and a well made/fitting tent. I am aware that my thoughts are slightly coloured by my present boat which has quite a small cabin for her length and this space is dwarfed by the centreboard case. Getting in and out is a bit of a clamber and retrieving anything from the wrong side of the CB case is a complete pain.
Julian - Getting the gunter yard down and secured to the mast may be achieved in one of three ways on a Drascombe Coaster, plan A, the safest is to just drop everything down and stuff the bulk of the sail into the cabin and deal with it later, the snag is that at some point the yard will probably bash you on the head as it swings about in the swell. Plan B is to balance on the top of the CB case and lash the thrashing beast to the mast, this works except when one falls off the CB case into the cabin (ouch) and/or you get rolled into the sharp edge of the hatchway (more ouch). Plan C is to leap onto the cabin top and drop it while clinging on for dear life as the boat proceeds towards the breakers and the shallows, wrapping one arm around the mast while tying knots with your teeth. ;-)
Claus: is it possible to sail with the spray hood up on the BayRaider? (i.e. With Wife and Daughter protected from the elements as heroic husband/father battles the elements and plans where to run aground next)
Thanks again for your thoughts
Simon
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Hi Simon,
I think your description of handling a gunter yard at sea explains why we are trying to avoid it on the BayCruiser. We want it set up so that raising, lowering and reefing can all be carried out in the cockpit. The Bermudian rig does all of that because that is what it was designed for. It does mean a longer mast, but still no spreaders, so it should be OK. There is no problem on the open Bayraider because you can get to the foot of the mast easily and there is room in the cockpit to stow the yard.
I looked at Drascombe Coaster after many happy years with a Drascombe Dabber, but I thought the cabin was awful.
BTW I thought the whole reason for having wives and daughters in a boat was to shield the heroic helmsman from rain and spray. That's what I try to tell mine, but do they listen? (Pam says we are to have a spray hood or no boat...)
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... Claus: is it possible to sail with the spray hood up on the BayRaider? ...'
YES. Made for it. No interference with the mainsail. Completely dry underneath. C.
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These are the images I tried (and failed) to send in my last posting. Low res images this time so it should work!
They perhaps give some idea why the Four Sisters will not be traded in anytime soon for a "better" boat - like the BayCruiser for example.
Cheers!
Tony
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Simon,
Here are a some images from almost 2 years ago, sailing with Matt aboard the Bayraider. We had sailed most of the day with the dodger down,(first picture) but Matt had to take a call and could not be heard very well with the wind noise, so we simply flipped up the dodger and continued on. It is quite large and roomy and would be a good starting point for an extended cockpit tent if desired.
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Hi
Thanks again for the information and all the photographs. I now need to make a visit to see Matt to discuss the options (cabin or open, wood or plastic). I have to say that I have probably moved even further towards an open Bay Raider with a spray hood and a custom made tent following your posts. Not that I am not tempted by the pictures and life style of Four Sisters. She looks great and I have a bit of a soft spot for double enders having owned a Drascombe Peterboat for a short while in the past.
Julian, I laughed out loud re your comment about wives and spray, err do you sail much as a family ;-) ?
best wishes to all
Simon
PS does everyone have problems with quotes when posting? I end up with loads of slashes if I use them.
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"Yep!" he said.
"Back slashes everywhere!"
Call the IT crowd and let's get it sorted!
Also - Is there a way to stop hi res pics overflowing into the next county?
Tony
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"Oh Good" he said
"I thought it was just me!"
It would also be good to discover how to switch off the warnings that tell me that I should not be using Safari - it tells me I can but declines to tell me how! Doh!
Ah that's better.
Simon
How odd - it also ignores and removes anything inside angle brackets ?
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A cabin is a small and roughly built house usually with a wood exterior and typically found in rural areas. While tent is a shelter consisting of sheets of fabric or other material draped over or attached to a frame of poles or attached to a supporting rope. So, I would rather go using a tent.
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Sam,
A cabin is also a small shelter built into a boat designed to 1) block the helmsman's view forward and 2) provide a suitable point to fall overboard from when tending sails.
best wishes
Simon ;-)
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Hi, Jeff Curtis.
You say you have had problems rigging a cockpit tent on Rhiannon - surely the best looking BR of the fleet - so you may well have tried and rejected my down and dirty version. It is not very elegant but it is quick to rig and stow (stuffed into a carrier bag on the Four Sisters, I fear), cheap to buy and effective in the wettest weather. It makes the whole cockpit of the CBL into dry living space - but it is noticeably warmer in the cabin!
You need a (roughly) 4m x 4m tarp, some 4mm string (non-stretch and UV proof)a handful of plastic bull noses + screws ..... and a golf ball.
Drape the tarp over the spray hood and pull down tight each side using non-stretch string through the corner eyelets to bull noses fixed to the rubbing strip. Dont be tempted to use shock cord, the elasticity of the sprayhood frame will hold everything tight. Any more give and the tent will flap and allow drafts.
Pull the tarp aft towards the mizzen and use the golfball, pushed into a sort of pocket from the inside of the tent and held with a noose of some sort. This spreads the load on the tarp and prevents tearing. take the other end of the noose and fix it to the mizzen mast at an appropriate height with a couple of round turns and half hitches. If you roll the sail around the mast, use flat tape instead of string to avoid damaging the sail. Now use string and bull noses to hold down the edges of the tarp OUTSIDE the gunnels so that rain or condensation from cooking doesnt wet the side decks. Pull down tight and the elasticity of the sprayhood and mast will keep it all as taught as a drum skin. There should be plenty of spare tarp on the mast side of the golf ball hitch to close off the rear of the tent if you wish. You wont need to if anchored - the tent is as good as a riding sail and no rain will come through the back!
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Wrong Jeff Tony. My Bayraider is 'Spark'. Not nearly as smart as Jeff Henderson's 'Rhiannon'. I was using a bit of poetic licence about my tent problems. I haven't really tried that hard except to try to adapt the cheap tunnel tent I took to Seafair 2008; it blew away before I could get it pegged down. I went home and left the rain and gales to sturdier folk. I've registered for Seafair 2010 but for domestic reasons will have to make a final decision whether to go nearer the time. But thanks for the advice and I will try the tent thing again sometime.
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Sorry, Jeff.
Could do with ID photos on this Forum to help senile old buffers like me.
If I remember correctly from the Morbehan,(or was it Bala) Spark is QUITE smart enough, and certainly makes my poor old CBL look a bit battered in comparison. ....and she certainly "gets away from the lights" smartly enough!
Great boats, Bayraiders. I am saving up for one of Clauses cast offs if they ever hit the market! (Just kidding, Claus.)