Swallow Yachts Association
Swallow Yachts Forum => General Discussion => Topic started by: Edwin Davies 2 on 30 Aug 2009, 09:54
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Good to see Matt mentioning the BR17 in the News. I am really looking forward to getting back to sailing with this boat.
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If anyone goes to the Swallow stand at the boatshow please raise the subject of the BR17. So far I have two anchors some chain and lots of bits of rope. News of this boat is long overdue :).
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Denham Marine seem to know a bit more. kits available in November!
http://www.denmanmarine.com.au/id66.html
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Denman asked me what information I had on the BR17? It seems they have 15 to 20 people interested in Aus.
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Edwin, I emailed Matt about the BR17. He told me that they hope to start production of kits in Jan/Feb of 2010. and the possible price of a full kit might be around £4900 plus VAT. Neither price or date, I presume, is fixed in stone. Hope that helps. If you have more info yourself, I be interested to here it as I am interested in the BR17 myself. Regards DaveD.
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Hi Dave thanks for the info. I have put a deposit on a complete BR17. I think that was in June. Have you seen the flyer for the BR17 Matt handed out at the Southhampton Boat Show? If not I can email you a copy. Find my email at www.lincsa7.co.uk Hopefully that means that Matt will start building BR17s in the new year. I have been looking at alternatives but nothing stands out. Quite liked the look of the Deben Lugger. My lovely wife keeps looking at my boat money, I think she has other uses for it. Our last boat was 16ft Orkney Longliner! fishing boat. At the moment I sail model racing yachts. Ed
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Dear Edwin and co
The best way to get your new BR17 on time is to keep the pressure on, and you certainly know how to do that...
If your wife is eyeing up your "boat money" then I really had better make a start soon!
Seriously, the plan is still to start work on the first BR17s early in the new year (2010). I have deposits now for 3 boats, plus my own demo boat and I am confident that with the BR20 design to work from, the design process should not take too long. However, we have to get the design 100% right and that can take time, so I am deliberately not giving a firm completion date am afraid. We will do our best, but with a brand new design like this we can never be sure until she hits the water.
Thanks for all those showing interest. Some basic images attached. Keep badgering...
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I liked the look of the Deben Lugger too. Then I looked at the video of the Deben Lugger capsize test, and the Bay Raider capsize test.... and now I own a Bay Raider
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It is Christmas!
Ed
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See On The Drawing Board!
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With “only” £1,000 between the Storm 19 (a very good boat) and the BayRaider 20 (a brilliant one) could a well priced BayRaider 17 kill off the delightful Storm 17?
Let's hope not....but I know which one I would choose.
For Info:-
Storm 17 £9,995
Storm 19 £11,995
BayRaider 17 £........... ?
BayRaider 20 GRP £12,995
SeaRaider £16,995
Any BR20 owners looking to down-size to a BR17?
I'll take the old thing off your hands if you like...or failing that... put a "For Sale" Ad. in CHASSE MAREE and see how long it takes for your cell phone to melt!
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Do not forget to add VAT!
Ed
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Which VAT?
This years? Next? Dutch? US (if any)? All?
The point Tony makes -I think- is that it is difficult to see a pricing slot for the BR 17 (WE, Wood+Epoxy) between the other boats.
I myself think it is difficult to find a slot for it at all. It is becoming a very large and somewhat puzzling range of different hulls, rigs, parts and boats. Must be difficult to explain to a prospect customer.
If you say the BR 20 ist The ALL-rounder for all sea areas and crew sizes (which it is), then what is the BR 17 to be called? Three-quarter?
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Just to put in my bit on this. I suspect the BR 17 will prove enormously popular and probably will eventually oust the Storm 17. Double-enders are popular for their romantic, Norse-viking connotations, but I think a transom-ender will always prove more popular for general sailing. It gives more cockpit space and storage space. It probably allows an easier tiller/rudder arrangement. You can get in or out over the back without capsizing the boat. (That will always be popular with families and anyone who likes to jump in for a swim, like me.)
Having the choice of rigs and numbers of masts is sort of good, but I suspect that as Claus suggests, you want clearly defined products for marketing. Everyone knows what a Drascombe Lugger is, because they are all built the same. You either love them or hate them. If the BayRaiders have one mast or two, gunter or bermudian or lug sails, it could make it hard to estblish a clear brand.
I think within the next five years the Swallowboats line up will be:
Trouper 12
BayRaiders 15, 17 and 20
SeaRaider
Baycruisers 20 and 23
Storm 15, 17 and 19 as kits on request
Winsome pedal boat (I really want one of those on the Thames!)
What I think is lacking is a really small pram tender kit. I want to build one in the next year or so and would love to build a Swallow Pram, but at the moment the only thing I like is the Eastport Pram
http://www.fyneboatkits.com/trolleyed/4/122/125/index.htm
Matt is probably planning to go into GRP speed boats over the next 5 years.
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Claus, I was just pointing out that the bare boat price is only part of the total cost of acquiring a new boat. Especially for new owners without all the bits to transfer between boats. Even the anchor I have is too big at 26 pounds.
Having decided to get back into sailing again I first started looking at a Drascombe Lugger! Then refined my choice to a BayRaider 20. Unfortunately it was a little larger than I would like and outside my personal price range. The 17 may be yet, we have only a vague idea of the price £10000 +.
My first approach to Matt was to buy a Storm 17, he gently pointed me in the direction of a BR 17. Assuming the increase in price is not too much, the benefits of the BayRaider specification make it a much more attractive boat. The water ballast and self draining cockpit are a big plus, as I expect to be sailing solo most of the time.
Why would I not want a Bayraider 20? I am 66 years old and prefer the idea of a smaller lighter boat and trailer.
I assume many of the fittings and gear from other Swallow boats will also be used on the BR 17. I do agree with Julian about the transom.
I think the BayRaider specification is very strong part of the Swallow Boat brand and the 17 will, in my honest opinion, compliment the range, not complicate it. I just hope I end up with one. If not I will look for a second hand Dabber and make the best of it.
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Edwin,
if price is an issue, I would rather see a 100% performing BayRaider 20 GRP kit than an 80% BR 17, assuming both would be offered for the same price.
Imagine a Wood-Epoxy BR 17 would turn out dearer than a GRP BR 20, which one would you yourself then choose? Few people would go for a samller but nore exoensive boat.
I do hope that things work out for you finally so you wil not have to resort to a used Dabber.
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I have to disagree here. I think size is really critical and can outweigh price difference, up to a point. My first proper boat was a Drascombe Dabber. I looked at the Lugger, which is only couple of feet longer, but thought that it was just too big. I had small children and knew that I would have to do all the manhandling (dad-handling?), launching, dumping the sails in a squall, etc myself, and decided the Dabber offered all the Lugger offered for family sailing, but in a smaller lighter package. For single handed sailing I would make the same choice again.
For a young family day sailing, I think the BR 17 or even a BR 15 will outsell the BR 20. For camping/sailing it is different and the BR 20 has the necessary room. It would also give more confidence for sailing on the open sea. I used to be scared witless in the Dabber out in the open Channel, which is one reason I sold her. My wife did not forgive me for selling her until I bought the BayCruiser, which has got a lot of Dabber characteristics and is light enou8gh for easy single handed sailing.
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I have to disagree here. ... My first proper boat was a Drascombe Dabber. I looked at the Lugger, which is only couple of feet longer, but thought that it was just too big. ... For single handed sailing I would make the same choice again...
Julian,
I cannot see your point at all. The BR20 IS designed and prepared for safe single handing, that's key element of it's brief, purpose and fit-out. A boat big enough to go far out safely, and yet small and lightweight enough to handle and control by a singlehander in every respect, ashore and at sea.
You do NOT NEED a smaller BR 17 for single handing. On the contrary, the BR 20 should be your choice for single handing because it is more substantial and robust. When going out alone to sea, smaller is not automatically easier or safer, but it is notoriously less seaworthy.
Your analogy with the Drascombe Lugger and Dabber goes astray, because the BR 20 was specifically designed to do away with all the Lugger handling problems you describe. The BR 20 DOES NOT HAVE THE LUGGER PROBLEMS, so why should there be the argument "we need a smaller BR because the Lugger had such problems it needed a smaller Dabber"?
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But having said the above,
I am not altogether opposed to a BR17, though for another reason:
There will come a time when new sold cars are much lighter in weight than today, limiting their capacity for towing boats.
Then, the issue will not be what the best possible boat size is, but what is the maximum boat size you will still be able to tow. Then, because of the light build and the waterballast, a BR 17 may well be the most capable boat, among those one can still tow behind a private car.
Anyway, both BR 20 and future BR 17 are both better positioned for that future than any other boat I know today.
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It boils down to personal choice, and depth of pocket. I do not have the t1me to become an experienced sea sailor, so do not expect to be out at sea in difficult conditions. I hope I am experienced enough to know when to go out and when to stay home, based on the capabilities of me and my boat.
Thanks for the input, now I just wait to see what Matt comes up with.
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I think it all boils down to perception and experience rather than sailing reality. I wouldn't hesitate to take out a 20ft BayRaider single handed now, after 20 years of single handed sailing. I'm out in a 20 ft Baycruiser all the time and it's a joy. But when I first bought a boat, a 20 footer just looked enormous. The three boats that took my eye were the Dabber, the Cornish Coble and the Bass Boat, all 15-16 ft. So as a first boat, I think the BR17 and even a BR15 will find ready buyers. After a few years they will all upgrade to BR20s and there will at last be a few second hand Swallowboats on the market!
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Claus
As a current Storm 17 owner, I can agree with quite a lot of what you say. I'm sure the extra weight and stability of a BR20 is a boon single handing in more "challenging" conditions, but then isn't that exactly what the concept of BR's is about?.
Unfortunately it is never just about the sailing. Matt made the point about launching in less than ideal conditions, where less weight and easier handling is going to open up lots more possibilities. I would add to that ease of handling on land,less storage space needed, less use of finite materials in construction, lower cost and, exactly as you mentioned, easier towing with small vehicles. If the BR17 is big enough, and that is the crux of the matter, for the type of sailing which a person is comfortable with, such as river/estuary sailing (and here might be an opprtunity for a subtle distinction in the name!),then it is better than the BR20 for that person. The added stability of water ballast compared to alternative craft of a similar size/weight/cost, is going to be a real bonus and a clear distinguishing factor.
As regards the storm17/19, well it might not be totally relevant, but to be complimented frequently about the style and looks of one's craft is always nice.
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That all makes sense to me Richard. Incidentally I felt confident going out into the open sea from Blakeney in a 16 foot Orkney Longliner open fishing boat with the family along. Made sure it was a good day and made sure I knew where I was in relation to the coast.
I hope I end up with the BR17. It does tick all my boxes. Do we need another, more atmospheric name? Cove R. Loch R. River R. I am happy with BayRaider 17.
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Gentlemen,
different boats for different people, fine with me. Loads of boats out there to choose from.
Many different BayRaiders for different skills or different sea areas, there I have reservations. Loss of focus, difficult economy.
LakeRaider, LochRaider, BeachRaider? A distinct name would help to keep the BayRaider image focussed.
The difficult economy of a range of different boats will persist though.
The economy of the Drascombe range was based on that the mainstream boats Lugger, Longboat and Longboat Cruiser were all originally based on a single hull (that of the Lugger) and on sharing key components between them.
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BeachRaider sounds good Claus.
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Been thinking, to be easy to move on sand the BR17/BeachRaider trailer will need largish wheels with nice fat tyres.
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BR16? Could I ask others about the BR17 and my long term request for a BR16. One foot might not sound much but around here it is important. All of our local dinghy parks are restricted to maximum 16'. At 16' I can keep a boat reasonably cheaply in the dinghy park, dry sail her off a combi trolley and enjoy her easily and quickly and be sailing in the Solent in minutes.
At 17' where do I keep her? On a mooring with all the risks of damage and being constantly hit by learning dinghy sailors. ( This happens all the time at Keyhaven)
If I keep her at home then going sailing is a much greater task. Equally so for other sailors who have dinghy spaces at their sailing waters.
So, for me, 16' seems to give a much larger commercial market, although it would be head to head with the Wayfarer, the boats are different enough for it not to be a problem.
There must be good reasons to not wish to meet this market? Is my local 16' restriction unique?
16' would also better differentiate it from the BR20.
I guess it just did not work at 16'?
Brian
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My sailing club allow up 20ft. Personally I would be a lot less interested in a 16 ft boat. I do intend to trail, and store the combination on my drive. I hope to be sailing all over the country once I have mastered the art. Contacted an old friend today who lives and sails near Plymouth. Could be good for a holiday. He has a wooden Wayfarer.
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... All of our local dinghy parks are restricted to maximum 16'. At 16' I can keep a boat reasonably cheaply in the dinghy park, dry sail her off a combi trolley and enjoy her easily and quickly and be sailing in the Solent in minutes. At 17' where do I keep her?
Brian
Brian, I am pretty sure there must be a misunderstanding in your club. If limited depth in the dinghy park is an issue, then surely it does not make sense to limit the length of the boat. Because only important is not the nominal boat length but the actual length of the complete combined package of boat + protruding trailer hitchbar + stern rudderblade protrusion, isn't that so?
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Claus, as you know,most dinghies such as Wayfarers, are kept on a the trolley of a combi trailer, rudder in the boat, so the 16' length is the length when stored.
So a BR16 would be on its trolley only, the road base kept at home. Different style of sailing, but very easy and quick and hassle free.
If most sailing is done from this spot, then it is much easier. Then just slide onto the road base, drop the mast and trail to an event.
I was just making the point that there is a huge dinghy market that a BR16 would qualify for, where as a BR17 only qualifies for the trailer sailor market, which the BR20 meets anyway?
Brian
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Re B17 market, our freshwater lake sailing club has a size limit of 15' with no road trailer allowed on site. Moreover the club has a list of classes which are allowed on site, so the BR17 would fail on both counts. I suspect such strict rules become more relaxed for dinghy clubs with access to the sea. I suspect clubs with very keen racing fleets may also restrict the classes which they allow to use their facilities.
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Alistair, I never imaged there was a dinghy club in the UK which banned the Wayfarer dinghy!
Brian
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Re B17 market, our freshwater lake sailing club has a size limit of 15' with no road trailer allowed on site. Moreover the club has a list of classes which are allowed on site, so the BR17 would fail on both counts. I suspect such strict rules become more relaxed for dinghy clubs with access to the sea. I suspect clubs with very keen racing fleets may also restrict the classes which they allow to use their facilities.
Hi, Alistair.
Unfortunately sailing clubs reflect life. YOU may hope a sailing club is a group of people working together to enable each to enjoy their leisure in their own way – racing, cruising or just messing about in boats, but you can guarantee that some joker may see it as a vehicle to enable the exercise of power over others denied them at home or in their place of work. Hence all the dress codes, size limits, parking restrictions and other petty-fogging bureaucracies that Committee-Man will inflict on us if we allow it. The only answer is to become Committee-Man yourself and make sure that the place is run along sensible lines, doing away with all the nonsense and......er.....hang about...must be a flaw in my logic somewhere.
Must I become the thing I hate most?
Cant I just, um, sort of, you know, step in from time to time when they look like they are about to do something stupid – like invade the sailing club down the road, for example?
Seems Ive heard this all before somewhere.
Alistair – If you dont like their rules, fight em! – or vote with your feet.
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I think the point I was trying to make is that it might not be safe to assume that that every sailing club is a potential site for boats such as the BR17, not that I was unhappy with our much loved sailing club which is democratically run with all members voting on which boats we will host. We have lease restrictions on size as well.
I would think that the market for the BR17 would be similar to that which the Crabber 17 aims at.
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I don't think the BayRaider concepts (ketch rig, water ballast, developing design with options) is what dinghy sailors are looking for. They want an established, restricted class which they can race with minimum of handicap calculations. Alistair I think is right, that the BR17/20 is a day sailer in the Crabber/Drascombe market, but with a new level of performance and versatility. I don't expect to see any in racing fleets around the country, but I do expect to see many cruising around the coast on sunny summer weekends.
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Julian sums the differences up admirably. When I race at my sailing club I do so in my Laser with many capsizes throughout the year. When I sail in the Outer Hebrides where you have to get yourself out of any trouble, have other people in the boat and are probably fishing for mackerel, I do so in my brother's Crabber 17. The attractive qualities of the BR20 (and BR17) lie in it's thoughtful design, safety and relative simplicity coupled with performance.
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It's interesting that the concept of sailing from a dinghy park implies racing only. It was the same for me when I lived in the Pennines.
However it's very different on the coast. I can cycle down to my dinghy, launch in minutes and have the whole western Solent to potter in. Yes I race on Sundays, about 12 Scows might be out, but there are 157 Scows in our dinghy park, all potterering, fishing, teaching the kids, relaxing on Hurst beach.
Just to clarify, since you are ganging up on me! I never suggested class racing but no reason why not on the coast.
As lovely as the Cornish Crabber 17 is, they are very rare and expensive and kept on moorings around here.
I give in - happy Christmas
Brian
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In our Hykeham (Lincoln) sailing club they even welcome model yacht sailers! I am one. I think the limit on boats is 20 feet. The boat park has several boats that could not be mistaken for racing boats. Hopefully they will soon see a BR(BeachRaider)17. They are even talking about getting into sailing for the handicapped. Well done the committee. I am really looking forward to next year.
I do remember that one year it was thought that some people could infiltrate the club to exploit the mineral righs under the lake. Common sense prevailed.
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I went to the boat show on Tuesday, had several chats with Matt. It was nice to meet him at last. "O you are Edwin!" he said. I am looking forward to being involved in the details of my BR17, Apart from not having the side decks of the BR20 the other specification looks similar.
Mast on a tabernackle etc. Matt thinks the water ballast will need to be pumped out not sucked out, we will have to see. Both options can be built in. At least I have had plenty of time to plan all the other bits and pieces, life jackets, sounder etc. Delivery is looking like early summer now! I did have a good look at the Original Devon Lugger while at the show. It is the boat that I have always had in mind for when my boat came in. Things have moved on now though, water ballast sounds good to me.
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I think Matt was having his ear bent off by many people at the show, and still is presumably.
The Drascombe/Devon lugger was the great boat of its day, but I really do think the Swallow Boat design has moved things way beyond it. As Claus Riepe said on another thread, if you want a good Lugger, there is no need to buy a new one, they don't offer anything extra over a good second hand one. Drascombe themselves have realised this in the design of the Drifter 22, which has the rudder in the right place, on the back and not under the bottom. The Drifter, and Swallow Boats, also makes much better use of the internal spaces than any of the Luggers or Long boat derivatives (I shall probably get shot by Drascombe lovers for saying this.) I always felt that the Dabber was the best Drascombe design and I loved mine for 13 years until I wanted a cabin boat. The Drascombe Coaster offers amazingly little accommodation for a boat of its size, and then you have to yank the rudder out in shallow water. I tried one out at a Drascombe Rally and thought it was horrible. The little 16ft Winkle Brig I did buy then was like a palace by comparison, even though it was 5ft shorter. When I saw the BayRaider at Beale I thought it ideal, and what the Lugger could have developed to, if only it had a cabin...
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... As Claus Riepe said on another thread, if you want a good Lugger, there is no need to buy a new one, they don't offer anything extra over a good second hand one. ...
On the contrary, the new ones are worse and possibly even more dangerous than the old ones. Let me explain: The Drascombes were designed in the sixties. Then the RCD / ISO came into effect in 1997 which made it mandatory that -at minimum- boats to be sold henceforth have enough buoyancy to keep their crew well above water if the boat is swamped. The old Drascombes would not do that, and with the designer dead by then, they could not do a proper new redesign. So they started filling up the former stowage areas solid with two component foam. There went the stowage, and in came a big increase in hullweight, plus the uncertainty what the the foam inside the inaccessible compartments really does, if it soaks up water slowly. The new post-RCD Drascombes sail like wet sponges in comparison with the lighter older ones. I must continue below, for some reason my cursor disappears if the posting gets too long. ...
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And why may the new boats be even more dangerous: I am convinced they can no longer be righted from an inversion at all by any small crew. With the increased foam buoyancy of the new boats they are more stable when swamped, but also more stable when inverted.
Dinghies typically capsize to lee and in some high wind. With more buoyancy under the side decks the knocked down hull floats higher and gives more windage , so the wind pushes the capsized boat to lee. There lies the masttop with the mainsail up already under the water surface, pointing down steeper into the water the more buoyancy is under the side deck, and the wind then pushes to lee and practically spears the mast and mainsail under water, thus inverting the boat fully. And there you are sitting on the inverted hull and all you have to right the boat is your weight and very little lever. The old boats floated fairly low and could be 'rolled' back through the water by two crew, on a good day. But with the increased foam buoyancy of the new boats under the sides, much more of the hull mass would have to be raised even higher above the water during the process of righting. I doubt even four full size crew could do it today. Ever wondered why there is no video of a new Drascombe being righted from inversion on the web? -I don't. The problem is all that is being hushed, they jump at you when you mention that Drascombes do capsize and invert, and cannot be brought back then. I had several Drascombes over the years, because I thought they were the best boats on the market for my requirements then, but not any more today.
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I've righted my 1976 Lugger from totally inverted. I think you were there, Claus! Sail Caledonia 2007. It was very calm conditions, though. And deliberately capsized, I should add...
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I've righted my 1976 Lugger from totally inverted. I think you were there, Claus! Sail Caledonia 2007. It was very calm conditions, though. And deliberately capsized, I should add...
Right, Rich, I was watching then, also took a lot of photos. Even you as an exceptionally tall and athletic young man (2007 :) ) had a hard time to get an old pre-RCD Lugger finally back up, and that was in calm and preprared conditions, and you also had the two guys in the water to help you. Actually, your capsizing drill and that of Lovely Lady (also an old pre-RCD Lugger) in the year before had triggered Matt to design the ACB system and put it into the BayRaiders.
In both capsizing cases the initial attempts to right the turtled boats had failed. Only after a while -and several attempts- the boats came round, but then they were very deep in the water. In your case the sealed compartments under the benches had filled to some degree, and with Lovely Lady also the sealed bow compartment had filled while the boat had lain turtled.
So we figured that what had finally made the righting possible was that the boats had sunk in and shed some of their initial buoyancy. Which then had made it easier to roll the hull back as less of it had to be levered out of and above the water surface in the process. So the trick was to have less capsized buoyancy, not more.
continued below...
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... continued from previous post:
... And exactly there is where the new Luggers have gone wrong. They can no longer sink in like the old original boats as they now have all that extra fixed foam buoyancy under the side benches. The extra foam was put in to remedy the formerly poor stability of the swamped boat, but -in my opinion- has never been properly tested and assessed with regards to what it does to bringing back up the turtled boat.
There was a lot to be learned from watching your old Lugger capsize drills. The Swallowboats difference is that Matt has watched closely (he was there in 2007 too), and that he has done something clever about it, while the Drascombes didn't.
He designs for the worst case scenario right from the start and personally and openly tests his designs using the toughest Option No. 7 of the ISO standard (righting a turtled boat in practice through a single crew in under 5 minutes). And shows his testing on the Internet. That is what all boatbuilders should be forced to do, IMHO.
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I found the capsize videos for the BayRaider hugely reassuring. The BayCruiser hasn't had a full inversion test that I know of, but from a complete 90 degree knock down it just pops back up (there is a link to the video on my blog.) Fully loaded she would obviously float lower, but not much I think. The foam core cabin structure should also help to make her unstable in total inversion, again helping her to flip back upright.
The Deben lugger is another interesting boat that has published capsize Youtube videos. This comes upright too, but with great quantities of water on board. I always knew with my old Dabber that if she swamped there was no way she could be bailed out. The centreboard slot would have been below the water level. I sailed her defensively because of that and felt very exposed on the open sea.