Swallow Yachts Association
Swallow Yachts Forum => General Discussion => Topic started by: Tony on 09 May 2007, 12:28
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Not all of us use our boats for roaring around at high speed in uncivilised weather conditions frightening Drascombe drivers - although it can be fun! We occasionally like to park up in a sheltered cove to sunbathe, read, hang bottles of Sauvignon Blanc over the side, etc. and would also like to swim.
Have you noted the difficulty that fit young boat builders have in re-boarding after performing RCD capsize tests? If you find that amusing you should see me (neither young nor fit) attempting to get back on board my Lugger after a refreshing dip! She's a double ender so no transom to pull on - and trying to get on over the gunnels results in enough heel to clear the side benches of unsuspecting crew and, worse, spills the drinks!
I thought a hook-on boarding ladder would do the trick but no - she just heels 'til the ladder is horizontal under the boat - along with the increasingly hypothermic swimmer.
Please. Has anyone out there perfected a re-boarding technique for tippy boats?
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Having been down to Swallowboats to try the BayRaider (and ordered one) I know it is something Matt is looking at. There has been pretty extensive discussion of this on the Drascombe forum with Claus R (regular contibutor on here) being part of the discussion. The best solution seems too be a small "V" fender, permanently attached which can be pulled down to provide a step, but high enough up not to go under the boat when stepped on.
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Tony and Guy:
I still love to go for a swim!!
But I would never again go unless I have prepared -and practised- for getting back aboard.
We had discussed this subject in much detail some time ago on the Drascombe Forum, the thread was called ' Best method of getting back on board? '.
Getting back in is really two different subjects, prepared or unprepared. If you go for a swim voluntarily, you best hang something rigid or semi-rigid over the side, floppy rope ladders are practically useless. A very good product for that is a 'fender ladder', depicted leaning against the stern of my Drascombe Longboat in the thread 'Self Tacking Jib' on the DA forum. It lets you climb in quite comfortably, and the rest of the time it serves as a superb big fender.
But the more severe case is when you fall overboard by accident. For that, there really really should be something permanently prepared on board which you can grab from outboard while you swim. For that, I always had that V-fender living in the outboarder well of my Drascombes, forward of the engine. Not as comfortable as the above 'Fender Ladder', but miles better than just a barrel fender or rope ladder.
Swallowboats are different from Drascombes. On the Bay- and SeaRaiders, the outboarder well is closed through the fairing flap, and besides you can no longer swim into the outboard well and grab a fender that would be stored there.
So the next best place would obviously be on the afterdeck behind the outboarder well, but to be honest, I did not yet try it out.
Tony, I do not know what the outboarder well on your Cardigan Bay Lugger looks like, but maybe it is accessible and roomy enough to store the V-fender somewhere in there. Try it out.
Good luck,
see you in Morbihan.
Claus
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Claus and Guy.
Thanks for the tips. I must check out the Drascombe site, too. I have actually tried the fender trick (in the Ionian, where the water is a little warmer) and found that when I applied my weight the boat came DOWN more that I went UP! If I hung on like grim death the boat stabilised at an angle of about 45 deg - to the detriment of picnic lunches and marital harmony alike. (My wife suggests that perhaps less picnic lunches would help reduce the heel. Not sure if she means the boat or me.)
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I have a Storm 17 and am quite concerned at my inability to climb aboard after an unplanned dunking - if I was solo at the time I would be in big trouble. A V fender is a bit bulky and won't fit in the outboard well without fouling the outboard so I have opted for a coiled bit of web strap, with a loop in the end, attached to an eye adjacent to the rowlock gudgeon - not sure I've got the terminology right for that? The coiled strap is held together with an elastic band so in the event of a wet capsize and me in the water - I can reach over, break the band and pull the strap over with loop ready to give me a step up. I agree it isn't easy as the strap tends to disappear under the boat if too long - but it's suprising what cold desperation can spur one on to! Because it is strapping, the coil is quite compact and small - therefore not protruding into ones back when leaning against the gunnal.
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'Lady Helen Tragedy'
A thread has been started on the Drascombe website about a case where a Drascomber had apparently fallen overboard from his Lugger, was apparently unable to reboard, and drowned.
A sad story, hopefully something can be learned from it.
Drascombe Luggers, Longboats and Coasters are particularly difficult to reboard, because they have no stern-hung rudders and the stern itself is caving in so much that no foothold can be gained there.
Come to think about it, Swallowboat Storms and Raiders with their stern-hung rudders and -in case of the Raiders with their full transoms- have some fundamental advantage there. Maybe some -hinged- footstep on the rudderhead could be fitted to all Swallowboats in future, to make reboarding them even more comfortable.
I will retrofit something like that on my SeaRaider.
Claus
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Terrible news, thoughts go to the family. Possibly of interest would be the solution local scow sailors use, many being well retired and knowing how difficult CE cerified high floating capsized dinghies are to climb back into.
They use a horse riding stirrup on a lanyard tied to the shroud base on each side. It is preferable to climb back in over the side rather than the stern, clinbing back over the stern makes the person in the water a sea anchor, lets the boat point down wind, the sails can then fill and off she sails. Regards, Brian
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Brian,
in the sad case you are referring to, actually no sails were left set, which could have filled according to your theory. So in the case you refer to, a step on the rudder or transom would have been very helpful.
Ever tried to board from the side using a 'soft' rope step? -Don't!
I maintain from own experience: better a permanent provision to re-board over the stern, than a soft rope hanging down one side.
C.
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Brian -and all- ,
I feel I should elaborate some more. I had been experimenting in practice with my previous Drascombes how to get back in.
In short, 'soft' rope solutions -that would include your stirrup recommendation as well as all 'rope ladders' from the chandlers- simply do not work with boats like Drascombes or Swallows, you better know that. As you step into them, your foot is pushing the thing under the boat, while the boat heels towards you so however much pressure you apply, you end up lying almost horizontally under the heeled boat, instead of standing upright in the water beside it.
What you need -as minimum- is something rigid enough so you do not push it completely under the boat with your foot.
On the other side, getting in over the stern unaided is a common practice on dinghies because there the boat cannot heel towards you, and usually the rudder blade or rudderhead give you some knee- or foothold below the deck or gunnel level.
You are wrong to fear a boat with set sails would speed up away as soon as someone climbs up the stern. On the contrary, because you get up by the stern you have some control over the rudder, and can thus control -i.e. stall- the movement of the boat.
While, even if you had a rigid thing attached to the side of the boat, a boat that has its sails set is sailing and moving completely uncontrolled, and will very likely tack over and on top of you as you try to climb up. Not nice.
In brief: A proper permanently fitted step on the transom or the rudder is infinitely better than a soft step which you very likely have forgotten to hang to the shroud that day, and which would not work anyway. Beware!
Claus Riepe
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Hi there, Claus,
You're dead right about the heeling thing. The same thing happens whether you use a rope ladder or one of the fixed, solid variety. I’ve tried both on the CBL. I’ve also tried getting in over the stern but she’s double ended and so I get tangled up in mizzen booms and sheets, spiked by the outboard leg and gouged by the mooring cleats. Not at all the easy, elegant re-board I’d hoped for. (You’d manage better on the Sea Raider with its nice wide transom.)
The only thing that worked for us was a rope ladder fixed to the port side grab rail, draped over the cabin top and down the starboard side on a knotted, large diameter rope. The trick is to brace the bottom step against the (lowered) bilge board, get the foot on as high a step as you could reach without causing permanent injury and start hauling the boat down to meet you. By progressing hand over hand, up the side and over the cabin top, employing a sort of lay-back rock climbing technique, it is possible to get the trailing leg up and on to the side decking. After that it’s easy! The vicious roll back that follows is quite likely to tip your crew in - so they can have a go, too! It’s much easier to re-board by commandeering a passing sail board or sit-on-top canoe. (Pedalos are not recommended as they usually have a crew of two and can put up more of a fight.) but most of the time I’m afraid we are reduced to anchoring in waist deep water for our swims.
Last summer, after a bit of prime seamanship (which I’d rather not talk about, thanks) we managed to roll her right over - 180° - with the all washboards out and the hatches wide open. When we (quickly!) got her back upright, the cabin and cockpit were both full of water and with about 6” freeboard left we got back in VERY easily. Perhaps this is the answer- extreme water ballast!
At the moment I am seriously unprepared for a real emergency re-boarding. Without the rope ladder being deployed I will have to rely on the adrenalin that fear produces. Best to get on board quickly, though, as it soon wears off leaving you and your dilated blood vessels wide open to rapid heat loss and an early demise from hypothermia.
I should really wear the life jacket, carry a couple of flares in the pocket and clip the VHF to my belt as recommended by the RNLI – but I don’t. Especially not when picnicking off an Ionian beach. Insisting on life jackets tends to put a damper on the proceedings when surrounded by those in normal beach attire for the area. (i.e. not alot.) It feels rather like asking people to wear hiking boots, cagoule and ski poles to nip out to the corner shop for some milk.. and even those who would never dream of driving without a seatbelt can be reluctant.
Whatever. A life jacket won’t help you get back on board after a dip so this is still a serious problem for single handed sailors. The next thing I’m going to try is a large fender fixed to the end of a ladder. If it supports even a little of the swimmers weight it will be a help. The trick (as you mentioned earlier) is to make sure the swimmer can actually reach it!
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Hello.
If you try to google: ROCA lifesaver; you will find a nice little device. When mounted on the stern you can flip it down and you have a step to help you up. It's only one step, but you will get your hipsw high enough to reach inside and slide to the cockpit.
It will still be depending on your shape and clothes. If you can't get there on a warm summers day, you probably won't fully dressed on a windy day.
Personaly i prefer modern fleece and sports underwear, it's warmer and less water get stuck.
Hope you will never use it for real, but only when swimming and training capsizing.
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Hmmm...
Couldn't find the ROCA device with Google (became an expert on sweets and bathroom tiles though...)
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Hmmm...
Couldn't find the ROCA device with Google (became an expert on sweets and bathroom tiles though...)
Well, sorry for my laziness. Now I've found a propper link for you:
http://www.rocaindustry.com/
click marine
and then search for lifesaver and they show the boarding step.
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Thanks Christian
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ROCA Lifesaver.:
Great idea, many thanks. I got me one. Fits the transom of the SR very nicely, both with regards to length (folded up) and to hinge angle with the arm folded down. Well done piece of stainless steel, the arm can be taken off through a simple single bolt.
The man in the chandlery told me that it was developed by the Swedes because there they have a fairly high mortality of anglers who fall overboard, and cannot make it back in before hypothermia strikes, the waters in Scandinavia are generally much colder than further south, and the number of anglers is always high troughout all seasons.
A very good tip.
Claus
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We are going to try and encorporate a step, a bit like an aeroplane winglet, in the trailing edge of the rudder, so as to form a step. In shallow water sailing it will be out of the water as the rudder floats reasonably high.
This will allow re boarding by climbing up the rudder.
I will post some photos as soon as I have tried and tested it.
Regards,
Matt
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With reference to Matt's last post about the "aeroplane tail" step on the rudder - I am now the very proud owner of BR3 where he has tried it out, so I have tried to post a picture of it, in the up, raised out of the water position (Apologies if it doesn't work - my first attempt at attaching a photo!). It seems to me to be a very practical solution, it is fixed in position so you cant forget it or move it out of reach, etc. It is stable and solid, with the handhold of the mizzen base it gives good leverage, interested in your thoughts.
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This is how I have tried to cope with the problem of getting back into my Storm 15: a couple of small steps epoxied to the stern post. This might interfere with the hydrodynamics, but that is not an issue for me. As you see, this was done before painting - the final coat will have to wait till Spring now. The theory is that one grabs the rudder, gets a foot onto one step, and with the other on its mate, stands up grasping the gunwales; after which it should be a doddle to get a leg in. Great theory; my widow will post a mail if it doesn’t work.
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Sorry, this is a second attempt to show the steps on the primed hull.
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Leo,
great idea, well carried out. Hope it'll work just as well.
This is a great thread, very practical ideas popping up.
I have another idea to offer: Bolting a ready-made hinged mast-step (http://www.awn-shop.de/MAST-STEP_-_Maststufe/0310257/produktdetails.html) to the rudder / rudderhead. Costs around GBP 17.00 .
I have done that for 'Craic' now, as an additional second step, because her transom is so high. It's bolted to the stainless steel rudderhead about 5" above the waterline level. It's made from sturdy plastic, and has a tight fit when hinged up, so doesn't rattle when under engine. When folded up, it is so small it goes practically unnoticed.
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My first post to this forum, so I hope it works. This is an old but good thread. A couple of points I have once raised on the Drascombe forum. It is possible to climb up a small rope ladder if you really have to, but it is not comfortable. Cave explorers climb vertical rope ladders by putting a leg round the back of the ladder and pushing a heel back onto a rung. This means the lower end of the ladder hangs down between your thighs. Then put your other leg round the other side and push that heel into the next rung. A bit like climbing a rope. Not fun, not elegant, and really tricky next to a boat hull, but it does work. There is no real solution to tipping the boat towards you if you try to climb up the side, so you really need to get in over the back.
My Winkle Brig has a small narrow transom ladder permanently bolted to the stern and it is really simple. I get in and out with it all the time.
I do not currently have a Swallow boat, but I had a sail in a Bayraider at Beal Park and I am now drooling over the Baycruiser. Just have to convince my wife...
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Hi, Julian.
I envy you your little ladder! Im the proud owner of the Cardigan Bay Lugger, Four Sisters. Being a double ender, getting in over the stern is a bit problematic. Ive tried most things but am reluctant to put my full 12 stones (...er...perhaps with a leetle bit more for luck...) on the rudder pintles. My wife and I are towing her out to Greece again this summer so I will try out a few other ideas once in warmer water. I will keep you posted.
Yes. The Bay Cruiser! Probably have a lot more room inside than the CBL and with the Bay Raider sail plan, variable water ballast ...and, of course, transom, will be a very desirable package. A real alternative to ageing Drascombe longboat cruisers or over-weight trailer-sailers. I have a friend with a Parker 21 who wouldnt dream of towing it far -much too heavy- but is getting bored with the same old cruising grounds every year. Should suit him very well.
Point of interest:- Ive towed the CBL across Europe for the last two years using my 2litre Subaru Impreza Sport. Strange thing is the petrol consumption doesnt seem to go up much when Im towing. The Scooby doesnt seem to notice that the boat is there at all! Is it that motorway cruising is that much more efficient?.... that double ended boats are just as slippy in air as in water? (in comparison the car is as streamlined as a house brick)...or just that I dont lead-foot it as much when Im towing? All very strange.
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Hi Tony,
I would think that the rudder pintles are probably strong enough even for 12 stone... I think the Bayraider now has built in steps on the leading edge of the rudder so it can be used as a ladder. I have seen a dutch yacht, with a huge barn door rudder, which actually had steps up the rudder blade to act as ladder, which I thought was quite neat (picture below I hope).
I have got a Subaru Forester, which makes an Impreza seem really streamlined. What I have noticed over the last few weeks is that now I am driving up and down to Poole at low speeds to save expensive fuel, I get there in the same time and my fuel costs have actually gone down despite the hike in fuel prices. As you say, all very strange.
PS I have nearly convinced my wife about the Bay Cruiser...
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Below is another idea for what I think is a rather refined home-made set of steps for a Winkle Brig in France, posted on the Winkle Brig Forum. Again, it works on a transome. Getting back into a double ender is really quite a problem still looking for a good solution.
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Hi Julian.
Glad to see you are fitting a ladder to the BCs stern - vital safety precaution, let alone a swimming aid. I wouldnt trust a telescopic job myself....no evidence or experience of them, just predudiced against something that possibly MIGHT jamb when most needed.
Have any other double-enders out there solved the re-boarding problem yet?
I have reverted to the old rope ladder (hard treads) tied to the cabin top grab handles. It works better now I have lashed a large fender to the step that is normally about 6 inches below the waterline. the boat still heels alarmingly but the extra bouyancy - and clearance from the hull - is just enough to enable a really determined/scared person to wriggle and grunt their way back on board. This, obviously, takes time to dig out of a locker and set up so is only useful for deliberate swims. No use at all for emergency single-hander overboard stuff.
Thinking of cobbling up something using an inflatable life jacket mechanism and a drogue, arranged to pull overboard from a trailing line. The idea being to give you a step up AND stop the boat sailing on. The Four Sisters CBL will track for miles if I stiffen up the tiller with shock cord - as I tend to when single handed, for ease of rolling cigarettes, making coffee, etc.
Anyone have a better idea? (Apart from giving up Fags and Coffee, of course.)
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1:17 am? Don't you ever go to bed? Or are your posts delayed?
Have you tried rigging your rope ladder right at the stern on one side? You would be nearer the centreline of the boat so it might not heel so much.
I have my doubts about telescopic ladders, but I saw them in use on powerboats at the London boat show. Several boats had them mounted right at the bow. They were stowed flat on the foredeck, hinges forward. When needed they were slid foward, flipped over the bow and extended. They seemed surprisingly strong. I think they were meant to be used to get off onto a pontoon rather than right down into the water.
I also thought on looking at my boat that it would actually be easier to fit a ladder on the side at the stern. The overwhelming problem is that it would look really weird. Still puzzling it out.
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I have decided to fit a telescopic ladder and have just ordered the four step version. I have a cunning plan for propping it out at the right angle from the transom. If it works I will publish the result here. If it doesn't, I shall deny authorship of this post...
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I have got the ladder and am very pleased with the quality. Very solid. I am going to mount it on a small raised platform on the stern deck, so it can be stowed on the deck and flipped over to project down into the water. Will have to experiment to see if that can be done from the water, or if a heaving rope of some sort will be needed. I have suggested to Matt that for new boats, such a ladder could be offered as an option, with the top of the transom being lowered where the ladder is, so that it can just be stowed on the rear deck. The photos show a dummy platform in MDF. I will build a final one in ply, screwed to the rear coaming, so no holes are needed in the transom.
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Hi, Julian.
Replying at..um.. 9:45pm... Maybe I should wait a little longer to maintain my reputation for insomnia?
Yes. I like your stern ladder arrangement. Looks very tidy... and if can be made to deploy from overboard would be a great comfort to the more amphibious sailor.
I have two questions - not especially aimed at your good self:
1.
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Sorry. My over-affectionate cat just trod on the keyboard again.
I'll have another go.
Ahem!
I have two questions:
1. What happened to the 'step built into the rudder' idea?
2. Would my idea of a sort of mini sugarscoop stern for the Bay Cruiser solve more problems than it creates - or is it just too ugly?
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Hi Tony
Glad you are getting a proper night's sleep.
I don't know yet if the ladder can be deployed from the water. I hope I can just reach up and heave it over, but that may not be easy, especially in wet clothes. If it isn't. I'll experiment to see if I can arrange a rope to pull it over.
I needed a new rudder blade on Daisy G. as the original was sticky. Matt left the single step off the new one as it was barely practical. The step on its own didn't get you high enough to get over the transom. You had to stand on top of the rudder, which was difficult and you were hanging off the mizzen like an orangutang to do it. Again not really doable in a seaway in wet clothes. I shall experiment fully when the wtaer gets warm enough.
The ladder itself I am very impressed with. It is much more solid than I have anitcipated. I have climbed up it get on board in the barn and it does the job.
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Hi Julian.
How about a bathing platform or sugar scoop with a flip-down ladder? You see this kind of thing on AWBs, usually in conjunction with a boarding ladder and a freshwater shower (for posing in port). It need not be as ugly as the drawing I made below, would definitely make re-boarding easier on a small, tippy boat and, if designed properly, could reduce wake turbulence and so increase performance. (Huh? A First in Hydro-dynamics? Wheel, not exactly. A Bronze Survival Award, actually.) Dont think it would retro-fit on a BayRaider, though, even with a split in the middle for tilting up the rudder.
Would such a thing increase waterline length and therefore speed ....or just mess up the water flow and look damnable?
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Hi Tony,
I have seriously toyed with the idea of a bathing platform on the transom. You could even fit a full width one if there was a slot for the rudder blade to tilt up. There is room above the rudder head to take it (see piccy below). The problems with it are:
a- it costs money :(
b- I think it could look awful, but maybe not
c- I am not sure the transom is built strongly enough to take the loads
Plastimo do a little bathing platform and ladder which I considered, but again, I think it could look ugly (piccy 2 below)
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Here (below) is my temporary solution to the swim ladder issue, involving more Chipperfield-style woodwork. I have put this in place before trailing my BR to Greece this summer.
The Meccano-reinforced owl box on the top of the rudder stays in place the whole time and the platform is hinged so that the rudder can be raised. The mezzanine floor slides on to the bottom of the stainless rudder fabrication and is braced internally in all sorts of complicated ways so that it stays in place when put under stress by full-sized adults. It acts as a steadying platform for the rope ladder, which can be collapsed and stowed on top of the owl box, or taken off altogether. The rope ladder is attached by a carbine hook to a long M10 eye bolt on one side (replacing the original rudder pivot bolt) and to a matching eye nut on the other side.
The solution is temporary because I wanted a stronger and more permanent stainless solution but no-one was available to do it in time. The Swallow Boats contractor is too busy with SB work and the local fabricators here in Shropshire all seem to have gone out of business, or at least gone into hiding.
I will see how this stands up to real world use this summer and then try again with the stainless solution later in the year.
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These photos show the solution I have used for the last two season. No alteration to the boat. The only fixings are three bolts securing the plywood platform over the rear deck. I should think something similar could be done on a BayRaider. When I am single handed I leave the retracted ladder just hanging over the transom, where I could reach it if needed. I use it for swimming whenever the water is warm enough and it is very strong
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Julian
I would have gone for a solution like yours but unless you have the arms of an orangutan (and then some), there is not enough access to the underside of the GRP BR rear deck to do the necessary bolting, plywood backing etc.
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Hi, Julian, Graham,
I think your ladder is about as neat a solution as could reasonably be expected. Having no transom, the Storms, CBLs etc. cant use the same idea. Ive solved the swimming problem – more or less – with a rope ladder tied to the cabin top, using a couple of large fenders to reduce the amount of heel produced when I hang my 13st off the end of it. It's OK when you KNOW you are going in for a swim but useless for a man overboard situation.
When I was a kid I spent weeks making a Keil-Kraft slope soarer from a balsa and tissue paper kit only to lose it one day when I forgot to light the dethermaliser fuse. She just circled up into a cloud and I never saw her again. Four Sisters, on the right point of sail, will steer herself for hours in a steady wind . Fall off and its the slope soarer all over again!
I experimented with trailing a knotted rope - makes more drag than you would imagine and has to be quite long ( 5 knots = 2.6 m/s - at only 3 knots the boat will have travelled 15 meters in ten seconds). How many seconds would elapse after a dunking before we knew which way was up, let alone where the rope was at!
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The trailing rope idea is really a non-starter.As Tony says, it will be long out of your reach before you resurface unless the boat is becalmed. If the boat is moving and you did manage to grab it, it would pull your arm out.
My transom platform is bolted to the cockpit coaming, not through the rear deck, but I don't know if the Bayraider rear deck layout is suited to this. The platform has a down-stand at the fore edge and three bolts go through that. You can see their heads on the photo below.The ladder is just bolted to the platform. You can also see the tent hoop I have fitted for a cockpit tent. I have never used it in practice. If it is raining, I don't want to get wet fitting it. If it is not raining, I don't want it at all. The sprayhood covers nearly half the cockpit anyway and that is usually enough.
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I used my Heath Robinson rope ladder arrangement (see above) to rescue someone quite large from Lake Bala last month and decided that while it was OK in an emergency, it would not stand up to the rigours of life as a swim ladder in the Ionian. I finally tracked down a stainless fabricator who also does work for dairies and cheese factories. He made me a sturdy rudder bracket with winglets either side on to which I could bolt a collapsible ladder. The ladder is easily demountable but can also be kept stowed in an upright position (see photo below) without interfering with the play or uphaul of the rudder. When deployed, the ladder stands clear of the rudder (see second photo) and should make getting out of the water much easier.
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I can't see how the ladder is fixed to the boat. Is it fixed to th rudder head or to the transom?
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I can't see how the ladder is fixed to the boat. Is it fixed to th rudder head or to the transom?
It slides over the buttresses on the rudder head and is secured with an extended bolt where the roller for the rudder uphaul and downhaul lines go, plus another bolt around the back, like so....
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Hi, Graham.
That bit of kit looks the business. If rudder hangings of different styles can be beefed up to take the weight of an 18 stone rugby player in a flooded drysuit (they nearly always are in my experience. people dont close the zips properly) then something similar should be standard equipment on all Swallow boats.
Looks ugly? Thats a design problem. Remember how bad European cars looked when they were first fitted with American spec. fenders?
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Hi, Graham.
That bit of kit looks the business. If rudder hangings of different styles can be beefed up to take the weight of an 18 stone rugby player in a flooded drysuit (they nearly always are in my experience. people dont close the zips properly) then something similar should be standard equipment on all Swallow boats.
Looks ugly? Thats a design problem. Remember how bad European cars looked when they were first fitted with American spec. fenders?
It is moderately ugly but can be completely demounted when not needed for warm seas. I will report back if I have any rudder hanging problems.
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Hi folks,may I remind you that I´m an actual,sharp-end,Swallow-Boat solo MOB?But while I could steer the boat ashore with a foot on the rudder,climbing back in was a hopeless proposition.So,no half-arsed solutions here-Great Poseidon will likely give one warning only.
Options:
A)Have Matt rebuild to a transom stern(what he wanted in the first place,overruled by me)
B)What I wanted in the first place,overtalked by Matt,namely horizontal quarter brackets for Tq driveshaft one side,ready-use stern anchor the other,protected by "fins" fairing forward.These could have ROCA steps mounted under.
Your esteemed views,please?
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Johan,
Do you have a notch in your rudder as an emergency step, as on the Bayraider? I have not tried it yet as I have not been MOB, involuntary or otherwise, but in the Australian MOB video, it looked fairly easy to use in an emergency. I have installed a ladder because my crew will be in and out of the water all of the time in the next few weeks and some of them are less agile than others.
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Hi folks,may I remind you that I´m an actual,sharp-end,Swallow-Boat solo MOB?But while I could steer the boat ashore with a foot on the rudder,climbing back in was a hopeless proposition.So,no half-arsed solutions here-Great Poseidon will likely give one warning only.
Hi Johan.
I know JUST how you feel....
Seems this thread is going around in circles. If you start at PostNo. 1 you will soon get giddy.
Are bolt-on bits the answer or is it down to basic design?
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Graham
Your latest bracket looks the best solution so far and i'm going to get one made up locally. Did you produce drawings for it which i could poach. When the ladder is in the parked position it seems to touch the gunnel is this a problem when moving the tiller. If the timber blocks were a little further back that would keep the ladder away from the gunnel would it not. Must thank you as i was about to purchase one of these ladders and stick mounting timber mouldings to the rear deck on my Bayraider which i was not looking forward to.
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Peter
No drawings I'm afraid. I just asked the fabricator to stick to the following brief and then left it to him:
Whole thing must be removable - not welded to rudder fabrication
Bracket slides over buttresses either side
Fastened at the back using a long bolt
Braced using the roller bolt with additional eyenuts
Wings at an angle either side on the upper surface of the bracket to support ladder struts - not too far back so as not to hit transom when rudder hard over, and so that ladder stands clear of the rudder when it is down
Must allow rudder to be hauled up in dead ahead position
Needs some means of fastening ladder in up position that does not foul transom when rudder hard over (or hauled up)
Although it is not clear from the photos, when the ladder is in the up position, it is braced against the wooden blocks so that it does not interfere with the transom when the rudder is hard over - there is about 1cm clearance.
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Graham
Thanks for reply and i want to implement this idea ASAP as i'm off with family to Cardigan Bay area for holiday in 4 weeks time.. Spoke to Matt and he likes the idea but can't help until later in the year. Would your fabricator be interested in making another bracket for me do you think.
Just a question but with 1cm clearence betwee the ladder and the transom when tiller central the ladder still clears the transom when tiller hard over (sorry just can't visualise it) but it must be so.
Many Thanks
Peter
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Peter
If you let me have your contact details, I will put you in touch with him. He is not on email.
Graham
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Graham
Many Thanks
07774111112
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Looking at Graham's ladder-on-the-rudder there is one concern I would have. I had thought of fitting my ladder right in the middle, where it would project down over the rudder quite well. But if the rudder blade was tilted up, the ladder couldn't be deployed. Touch wood, I haven't fallen in yet, but the nearest I came to it was at anchor, when the rudder was tilted up. Similarly when I leave her on her mooring, the rudder blade is up, and getting into the dinghy is the time you are most likely to fall in and need a ladder to get out again. I always leave the ladder hanging over the stern when I moor her.
I hate to say it Tony and Johan, but one reason I didn't consider a CBL when I wanted a cabin boat was because I wanted a transom for a boarding ladder. Is it not possible to bolt on a ladder on one side just in front of the stern post? Or have a flip over telescopic one there, which could lie across the stern deck when not in use?
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Just a question but with 1cm clearence betwee the ladder and the transom when tiller central the ladder still clears the transom when tiller hard over (sorry just can't visualise it) but it must be so.
I have spoken to Peter but just to clarify, there is 1 cm of clearance from the transom with the rudder hard over and quite a lot more clearance when amidships. The positioning of the wooden blocks stops the ladder from moving any further forwards and getting in the way when stowed in the upright position.
Concerning Julian's point about what happens during an MOB with the rudder in the uphauled position, I think I would cut the rudder uphaul line with the knife that I usually have about me, whether or not the ladder was installed. Exceptional circumstances demand exceptional responses and hang the cost......
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Hi Tony,
Let´s go to "Not all Swallowboats,etc" so we don´t clutter up the boarding ladders
Johan
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Here is a photo of the bracket without the ladder on. I am thinking of leaving it permanently mounted, with maybe some non-slip pads bolted on to the winglets, as an aid to getting back on board if the ladder is not there.
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Graham
Nice to meet you again at Bala. All of us thought your boarding ladder was brilliant.
Could you contact me on 01270522251 or terrycross@martexmarine.com re.Bags
Terry Cross "IONA"
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Great thread. I saw a home made self-rescue ladder being tested on a Drascombe Rally.
I think it was Douglas Hopwood who designed the boarding ladder being used in the picture. It is made of ply and stows flat on the rear deck. The MOB swims to the boat extracts and fits the ladder and boards. Douglas has drawings and can be contacted through the Drascombe forums.
best wishes
Simon
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I have seen several solutions like this where the MOB "reaches inside the boat, gets out the folded up device, hooks it over the side and then happily climbs back on board." When you have been for an intentional swim from an anchored boat on a nice sunny calm day, I am sure all of this can be done. I have done it myself. If you have just slipped, fallen headfirst into the sea in all your clothes and come up to see your boat moving away, I just don't think it will work. For a swim ladder, OK, but for emergency re-boarding I think the ladder has got to be in place and ready to use, not stowed away somewhere on board.
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I agree with you Julian, but include it as better than nothing.
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The new ladder works really well. When leaving the boat at night (diving over the side), I drape an extra long rudder uphaul line over the gunnel. Next morning, I swim up to the boat, give the uphaul a swift tug to detach it from its clamcleat and then pull the rudder and ladder down ready for boarding. My son can climb in over the side but those sort of manoeuvres are now well past my capabilities.
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I just read an unrelated comment on the Wooden Boat forum and thought, what a simple idea. Fit a rope between each corner of the stern (this was a transom boat) which is loose enough to hang down into the water over the back, so you can put a foot into it to heave yourself up out of the water. When not in use, it can be used as a towing bridle for a dinghy, or just bunched up loose above the tiller. The same thing could be done on a double-ender, just fitting the rope ends a bit further forward of the stern.
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Sorry, Julian.
Doesn’t work on a double ender like the Storms and the CBL, I’ve tried it.
Fixed a rope to the two stern cleats, threw it over the stern and, ever hopeful, dived over the side. Action and reaction being equal and opposite, surfaced to a tirade of extremely un-ladylike language and a bottle of sun-cream hurled at my head. (It was factor 50 so quite heavy) The violent rocking I caused during take-off had dumped my wife onto the bottom boards, a situation up with which she would not put. Anyway, found rope, inserted foot, grabbed gunnel either side of the rudder and heaved.
The rope promptly disappeared under the boat propelled by my legs, which were carefully positioned either side of the rudder to avoid the tipping problem. I leave the rest to your imagination. Luckily, I have all the children I need already. Oh, Yes. I cut my shin on the propeller, too. (NB In a seaway that motor is going up and down like a meat cleaver. No way I’d even attempt to board over the stern of a double ender.)
Ideally you really need something at shoulder height to pull on as well as two steps, one a foot or 18 inches below the surface and another at the surface. That way you can get your weight inboard asap to reduce the heeling moment.
My best answer with the CBL is a knotted 25mm rope tied to the grab rail on the far side of the cabin top, tied to a rope ladder on the near side. The ladder has two large fenders attached which seems enough added buoyancy to reduce the heeling and stops your legs going under the boat. You can then, after giving wife due warning, crawl up over the cabin top from knot to knot like the Monster from the Black Lagoon. Hope the crude sketch gives you the idea.
This is obviously useless in an emergency – the only time I have been overboard involuntarily I took the precaution of swamping the boat by rolling it over first. Only had about 6inches of freeboard to worry about!
All this is such a faff that we usually run the boat into a foot or so of water off a nice quiet beach and swim from there. Two methods are employed.
1. Head straight for the beach, drop anchor and feed it over the stern until wife thinks its shallow enough to wade to shore. She will get her eye in after a couple of mistakes. Fix a shore line so you can pull the boat closer in or further out at will. Abuse wife on inability to tie a round turn and two half hitches successfully. This completes the process.
2. If wind roughly parallel to shore (rare but it can happen), drop anchor 10m from shore, let out 20m of anchor warp. To re-board, tow boat to shore, hop on and the wind swings you off again.
N.B. A well kept wife in reasonable physical trim and wearing flippers can tow the CBL at about 1.5 knots, as measured by GPS...until she realises whats going on, of course. Small petrol savings all add up, though.
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Tony
You really have excelled yourself. I think I laugh a fair amount (why? - a topic for discussion some other time, and probably place as we are supposed to confine ourselves to sailing topics here -aren't we?), but this (your post above) had me bellowing with laughter when I first read it, and chortling most of the time since. J K Jerome, eat your heart out (that's a funny [peculiar] expression, come to think of it). and that's another pint on me when we meet. My respects to your lady wife - I hope she finds you amusing at least sometimes.
On the topic, from this point of view I look forward to a boat with a wide (and elegantly curved, by the way) transom with a low rudder head (because the tiller goes through, not over, the transom) on which to get a knee or foothold should one need it. I'm referring to my in-build Trouper.The inherent difficulty of getting back aboard a double ender, especially in an emergency is, I have to admit a big negative, much as I love the type otherwise. The only time I have so far had to re-board my Storm Petrel from the water was when, like Tony, I filled the boat with water first by capsising - a rather humiliating re-entry, but not difficult.
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My respects to your lady wife - I hope she finds you amusing at least sometimes.
Hello, Michael. "Lady Wife" here.
I am afraid I must dash your hopes. No, I do not find him amusing. Not in the slightest. Have you any idea what it is like to be married to someone like that? He cant even go out and buy cat food without something weird happening.
With a bit of luck the batteries on his pacemaker will run out soon and we will all get a bit of peace, not to mention the insurance money.
Any offers for the Four Sisters, by the way? Its cluttering up the front garden at the moment and I have told him if it doesnt go soon I will put it on e-bay.
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Well,M`dear,your gain(?)would be our loss..for myself,a kindred spirit in various,self-inflicted forms of wet-phase adversity is a great consolation..I think,totally out of order of course,that my own wife is quite content to have hubristic misadventures and episodes of pre-senile marine disorientation take place in periods of what she calls,if you please,pub-crawls afloat.What she gets is a low-profile,
apologetic,eager-to-please house-husband,trying to hide his bruises..
until Original Sin kicks in again!
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...until Original Sin kicks in...!
Lady Wife here. (I hate that,but I refuse to use my real name. Its unlikely, I know, but someone who knows me might read this.)
Johan - I've managed to get to the computer first again and hope I am not too late. You appear to be a gentleman of some education, or at least to have swallowed a ruddy dictionary, and your attitude to you wife does you credit, so I am assuming you additionally possess enough Emotional Intelligence to understand my feelings.
Would you please NOT mention any original sins to my (it must be said) easily led husband. He already causes enough problems with just the everyday un-original ones.
A woman can only take so much and my nerves have been on edge since the incident with the laminated tiller.
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Well..speaking of sins,I have indeed been accused of Deadly Sin #8(?),
Locquacitas,she of the superfluous words,before!
Might we possibly try to edge from the Maelstrom of brimming frustrations,to the Blessed Calm of matters technical?
What did happen with the laminated tiller?
My wife also accuses me of this:when overpressed with argument,divert to another topic!Namely,best workplace one-liner so far this autumn:
Patient half awake on table.Theater Nurse X drops metal instrument tray,causing fearsome racket.Patient:Izzat waddeycall Death Metal?
Best/Johan
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Speaking of sins,again,may I suggest that to a Christian,without Sin,there is no Grace..
Or,Julian,DAISY Grace perhaps,could you expand on that?
For myself,the most profound spiritual moment,a libation to Great Poseidon on Cape Sounion.
On the subject of libations..cheers!
/Johan
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For myself,the most profound spiritual moment,a libation to Great Poseidon on Cape Sounion.
/Johan
Kap Sounion, eh?
It may be a Pagan taste but I, too, enjoy a drink with an ancient monument. That reminds me. There's an OGA Trailer section meeting at Ullswater soon.........
(P.S. Trust my wife to bring up the laminated tiller incedent. I would rather not discuss the matter, thanks all the same.)
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Hi Johna
Daisy Grace is simply my mother's name. Nothing spiritual about her! It's a good boaty name and I named my Mirror Dinghy after her, when I got it just after she died. My daughter said that my current boat really ought to be Daisy Grace 2, but being pedantic in response I said it should really e Daisy Grarce 3, counting my Mum as 1. But Daisy Grace she is.
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I have posted to the library an article on 'Boarding ladder for a Bayraider'.
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Thank you for the article in the library. I would like to get one made. Please could you give us some more detailed measurements and drawings. Although the photos are good it is not easy to see some details.
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Thank you for the article in the library. I would like to get one made. Please could you give us some more detailed measurements and drawings. Although the photos are good it is not easy to see some details.
No drawings, I'm afraid. I showed the fabricator what I wanted and he just did it, first time. I can give you his phone number if you want.
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Thanks the details of the person who made it for you would be very useful.
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Sent by email.
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Can someone please clarify whether the step built into the rudder on recent Bayraiders works? Johan and Graham touch on it, but I'm not clear what the conclusion is... and thus whether to rely on it.
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Can someone please clarify whether the step built into the rudder on recent Bayraiders works? Johan and Graham touch on it, but I'm not clear what the conclusion is... and thus whether to rely on it.
Rob,
It definitely works but it's just not as easy to use as a proper ladder with several rungs. On some of the BR deliberate capsize videos, you can see people using it to get back in the boat over the stern and I have used it myself twice.
Unless he's changed it, Johan has a modified CBL (I think without a rudder notch), not a BR.