Swallow Yachts Association
Swallow Yachts Forum => General Discussion => Topic started by: David Hudson on 20 Dec 2014, 17:11
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Twenty foot sailboat...capsize.
How many "Swallowers" have actually capsized?
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Not me. Barely had any water over the rails! ;D
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Here's one http://www.swallowyachtsassociation.org/smf/index.php/topic,414.msg3540.html#msg3540 and here's a passing reference to another http://www.swallowyachtsassociation.org/smf/index.php/topic,1034.msg6823.html#msg6823 both BR20's and both under racing conditions. I've been very close several times.
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Thanks for the reminder Graham! My top capsizing "tips" (pun intended) are:
a) Don't - unless you intend to.
b) A practice in a safe place at a safe time is a good idea
c) Don't put your fingers in the centerboard slot before the centerboard slams back into it. You've no idea how tempting this is when climbing onto an (upturned) hull. I didn't and so I still have four fingers and a thumb on each hand.
Have you any capsize experience David H?
Matthew
BR20 Gladys
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Yup, once. And the BR17 didn't self-right, but maybe I accidentally didn't have the tanks full. I was very glad of the step in the rudder to climb back in after hauling on the centreboard.
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My experience with near-capsize is that I've always been distracted by something else at the time (usually bits of string at the mast) and haven't been able to let go the mainsheet quickly enough.
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"it's the boater not the boat"! with apologies to the movie, "The singer not the song".
Very informative.
David H
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Our near capsize was down to under estimating the strength of the wind when changing course from a run to a beam reach when a gybe was in the equation as well. An opportune loss of footing by the helmsman and release of the tiller may have helped the recovery, i was only thankfull that i had a firm grip on something at the time and the ballast tanks were full. Lesson learnt remember to think about wind strength when running and dont let the lack of wind noise and the smooth ride of the boat lull you into a false sense of security.
Peter Cockerton
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I've written FAR too much already about my spill. Besides, as mine isn't a 'twenty foot sailboat', it doesn't count.
May we know why this info is being collected? - in a good cause and not for titillation, I trust.
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Hi Michael
Titillation is gybing a windsurfer in a '5'!
Just an innocent enquiry.
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I'm in favour of old-fashioned maritime titillation. Especially at this time of year when most of us (in the UK anyway) will not be getting back on the water for a while. It's like reading the best bits of Webb Chiles and his Drascombe exploits, while sitting next to the fire with a dog or two.
On the subject of Drascombes, they had an interesting insight on their forum a while back. Which is that if a buoyant boat capsizes in high winds, it is quite likely that the top of its mast will be lying slightly underwater and away from the wind. Before you know it, the windage on the buoyant hull has pushed the boat downwind and pressure of water on the sails has forced the mast underwater, causing complete inversion. I think that this is probably what happened to Matthew's 'Gladys' during Sail Caledonia in 2012. The encouraging thing is that after the shock of being dumped into the briny and turning turtle, the crew managed to get the boat upright and sailing again in double-quick time. They were aided by the BR20's asymmetric buoyancy and the safety boat, which was waiting nearby, wasn't needed.
If you know that inverting after capsize is a possibility, then you may just be able to prevent it. Something like this might help http://www.tridentuk.com/gb/secumar-anti-capsize-cushion-20lt-720.html. Or as Matthew tips (ho ho), you could try not to capsize in the first place.
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I can't speak for 'Gladys', but that describes exactly what happened to 'Cavatina' off Durdle Door. It all happened quite quickly and was unexpected (!) so I didn't survey the scene in a 'that's interesting, I wonder what will happen next' way: but I clearly recall that I was surprised at how high out of the water the boat on its side floated, because of her side buoyancy which is the full length of the hull. She was tipped over by a wave plus wind with the rig to leeward, and the windage on about 2/3 of her rather plump hull above water would have been considerable, and working to invert her. Like a properly RYA-trained sailor, my first action was to swim to the stern to try to turn the hull round: had I managed that, I'm pretty sure the wind would have righted her, or made it easy to do so. But she inverted almost immediately.
The masthead airbag is a most ingenious idea (now why didn't I think of that!?), and seems to be quite compact until inflated. A bit pricey, but worth thinking about.
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This is just like "In the psychiatrist's chair."
Happy Christmas to you all from an expectant Expedition owner.
David H
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Which is that if a buoyant boat capsizes in high winds, it is quite likely that the top of its mast will be lying slightly underwater and away from the wind. Before you know it, the windage on the buoyant hull has pushed the boat downwind and pressure of water on the sails has forced the mast underwater, causing complete inversion.
Complete inversion became a problem with Seafly racing dinghies (my "other boat"!) when, many years ago, they changed from wood to alloy masts. The Seafly is indeed very buoyant when capsized and the inversion happens much as described for the Drascombes. One suggested solution ( not recommended for a SB!) has been to cut down the buoyancy in the side tanks so the hull sinks more and the mast is parallel to the water. I have a masthead float on the alloy mast of my Seafly (permanently inflated and therefore cheaper than the secumar one - you don't need much buoyancy at that location to prevent inversion).
For Swallow Boats with their sealed, buoyant carbon fibre masts I would have hoped that the chances of complete inversion are much less. Indeed, you can see the effect of the mast buoyancy on the published gz curve. However gz curves are theoretical, I'm hoping not to do a verification the hard way using my BC20!
Peter
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Er well hands up here
But if Gladys and cavatina were capsizes then Ristie only managed a part capsize! Sail flat on the water, bit of swimming and some embarrassment much to the amusement of a moored boat we were close to at the time. However as Matthew found, the Bayraider does everything it is supposed to and we recovered ourselves without any help.
Tim
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Peter, I'm not sure what, or where, a gz curve is: and it might be different for the 'big' Swallow boats, though I rather doubt it. I have a CF mast, 15ft long (for a 12 ft hull) and weighing about 2 1/2 kilos. It should have been sealed but wasn't (now definitely is!), and after 2 hours of inversion was pretty full of water. However the leaks were very small, and the inversion happened within about 2 minutes of the capsize. I don't believe a significant amount of theoretical mast buoyancy could possibly have been lost in that time. (Once the boat was upside down, I suppose the extra pressure 15 ft down might have squirted water a bit more quickly into the mast cavity?)
So, whatever the theory, I'm sceptical that a CF mast would prevent, or even delay by very much, the inversion of a super buoyant and therefore inversion-prone boat.
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So, whatever the theory, I'm sceptical that a CF mast would prevent, or even delay by very much, the inversion of a super buoyant and therefore inversion-prone boat.
Which suggests that in unusually risky situations, having a Secumar or similar run up the mast or strapped to the top of the yard (on a gunter version of the BR20) could be quite a good idea.
Incidentally, although it was discussed on the Drascombe forum, I don't think the risks of inversion by buoyant boats was supposed to be a problem for Drascombes. From what I remember (and I can't find it any more), it was a dyspeptic reaction (one of many) to someone daring to suggest that the Swallow Boats deliberate capsize videos indicated that said boats were in any way superior to a Drascombe.
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Peter, I'm not sure what, or where, a gz curve is: and it might be different for the 'big' Swallow boats, though I rather doubt it.
The gz curve for the BC20 attached) was published in PBO's review (Practical Boat Owner, 526, p39-42, September 2010). A positive number means the boat tries to stay upright, negative means it likes it upside down! It shows that with the ballast tanks full the BC20 has a reasonable self-righting moment even if knocked down flat. With the tanks empty there might be enough righting moment as the mast dips under at 100 degrees to delay an inversion. But gz curves relate to flat water and calm conditions which is why I used the term "theoretical"! What I think the curves show is that for a BC20, if in doubt, have the tanks full!
With much smaller boats like my 15' Seafly dinghy, righting the boat from a complete inversion is not a problem if the water is deep. However where I sail, getting the mast stuck in the River Itchen mud would be an embarrassing problem! Thats why I fitted a masthead float. The same might be true for some of the smaller SB's in inland or inshore areas.
Peter
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I.14 Kirby v, upside down quicker than Reliant Robin?
Expectations or the Alan Clarke's "actualites"?
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Thanks, Peter. Now I can't plead ignorance!
I know Graham brought up that Secumar link for illustration purposes. I haven't looked all that exhaustively but have already found it elsewhere quite a bit cheaper (not sure if that's good grammar). So, as always, it's obviously worth shopping around.
(What an amazing thing this internet 'shopping' is! - applies just as much, if not more, to chandlery-type items.)
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Hobie cats often fit a blimp shaped mast float to the top of the mast. They rotate in the wind, so are meant to be aerodynamic. They look fairly daft, but on a catamaran they make sense.
Like Michael, I have found that my CF mast is not water tight and actually part fills with rain water on the mooring, which is a bit weird. I think you would need to fill it with foam if you wanted reliable buoyancy, but that would increase the mast weight significantly. I keep my tanks full. That plus a very large helping of cowardice has kept me upright for quite a few years so far.
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There's currently vigorous speculation on the Drascombe Forum about whether a lack of mainsail boom (or possibly having a mizzen set) contributed to a Lugger's accidental gybe and fatal capsize off Ireland last August. The official accident report is believed to be due shortly. See 'Sad news' in the general section of their forum http://www.drascombe-association.org.uk
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Hi, I purchased one of the smallest Hobie floats, a few years ago to put on top of of my boat/ 16' dingy. (Prior to my BayRaider). I was surprised at how heavy it was. I ended up not using it and just fitting a regular fender to the mast top with a loop around the mast at the bottom of the fender to keep it tidy on the mast. It looked a little strange without the bottom secured as the fender would flyout when heeling!
Good news was that I never "went turtle" again! Capsize yes, but never completely over again!
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Here's a photo of my Seafly with the masthead float I use with the alloy mast... it's a 9l Crewsaver one ( http://www.crewsaver.com/Leisure/p/98/mast-head-float-9l )
and worked on the one occasion I've tested it by accident. They do do a bulky 40l one which the sailing school uses on their Wayfarers, but 9l that high up on the mast is quite a lot of moment to prevent turtling.
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Thanks for the picture (nice one!), Peter. Very helpful to see what the smaller Crewsaver mast float looks like in action/situ. I think stretched along the yard up to the peak would be best on my boat.
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Old news (2007) but since you asked...... broached my unballasted Cardigan Bay Lugger off the top of a breaking wave. Next big wave rolled us over to 180. (Sails pushed under by wind on hull? Perhaps, but wave pressure enormous.) Pulled nearest bilge board back out, heaved a little and up she came - totally swamped as cabin hatches were open (!). Dropped main, sheeted in mizzen so sitting head to wind and waves and, if the lockers had been closed (!!) and the bailer tied on (!!!) could have sailed away without problems. (As it was, things got messy - but that's a much longer story.)
Things to remember.
1 Don't believe dinghy sailors that say they know what to do with a mizzen.
2 Don't trust 'more experienced' sailors who say "It'll be ok. Stop worrying!" It's your boat, not his!
3 At sea, stay with the capsized boat. (My "experienced" helm swam off after his shoulder bag, despite myself and the other crew shouting to him not to. He was out of sight in a minute as the boat blew downwind. He was picked up by a passing cruiser but I didn't find that out until 2hours after we got to shore. I thought he was a goner. )
4 if you are going to capsize in an F6 do it in the Ionian in August. The water's nice and warm.
When running in strong winds, furling the mizzen is a good option and in view of what has been discussed here, I will also consider running a fender up the jib halyard, whatever it looks like.
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There's currently vigorous speculation on the Drascombe Forum about whether a lack of mainsail boom (or possibly having a mizzen set) contributed to a Lugger's accidental gybe and fatal capsize off Ireland last August. The official accident report is believed to be due shortly. See 'Sad news' in the general section of their forum http://www.drascombe-association.org.uk
As far as I know, the Irish report hasn't been issued yet. Here's another incident at the weekend with a much happier outcome http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3105635/Pleased-getting-dry-land-Moment-pet-dog-rescued-lifeboat-crew-owner-s-boat-swamped-capsized-Poole-Harbour.html.
It would be interesting to know what caused this one, apart from the weather, obviously. The RNLI reported that their original salvage pump wasn't big enough to pump the boat out and they had to call for a larger one from another lifeboat that happened to be nearby. Something similar (without the dog) happened to Webb Chiles when he crossed the Pacific in his Lugger 'Chidiock Tichborne'. In the photo below the centreboard slot can clearly be seen well below the waterline. I think this may explain why the RNLI needed to call for a larger pump, to bail out the Poole boat faster than water gushed up through the slot.
It's currently gusting F8 straight up Lake Bala. Paperwork for me tomorrow.
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I think the photographs in that article tell me why I feels safer in a Swallow Boat than in a Drascombe. I used to have a Drascombe Dabber, which I loved, but I dreaded ever swamping it as I knew it could barely float and was impossible to bail out. Happily the event never happened.
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The dinghy sailor in me would class that boat as unseaworthy. If you can't bail it out in Poole Harbour, what would you do on the sea?
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I seem to remember an erstwhile prolific forum contributor had strong views, which he shared here and on the Drascombe forum, on Drascombes' buoyancy and he questioned the changes made to achieve RCD compliance. Unfortunately I think he had a good point and this incident and others support that.
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If my very old Lune Whammel had been swamped, it would have immediately sunk like a stone. This was one of the downsides of being built like a brick outhouse. The ballast was fertiliser bags filled with shingle, stored under the cockpit sole. The boat was used for towing excess luggage and supplies (including alcohol rations) on family holidays and was once so overladen that the trailer axle snapped. Happy days!
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There has been endless discussion over the years about how seaworthy some of the older Drascombes really were. Much has been made of Webb Chiles sailing across the Pacific to Australia in an open wooden Drascombe Lugger in 1979. I was not that impressed by the boat, because when it was swamped by a wave, he couldn't bail it out as the flotation was so poor and the centreboard slot was below the waterline. I think it stayed afloat primarily because it was made of wood. He spent the rest of that voyage in a 9ft inflatable that he was fortunate to have, whilst the lugger was little more than a barely floating sea anchor tied to it. A seaworthy boat is one that can survive a swamping.
My own Drascombe Dabber had a pitiful amount of polystyrene bits in bags under the decks. I don't think it would have sunk, but if flooded, it would have been so low in the water that the centreboard slot would again be the Achilles heel. I think these problems have been addressed in newer Drascombes, although I don't know how the centreboard has been dealt with.
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Webb Chiles is at it again! His 6th circumnavigation. I think he is 73 now!!! Wow.
http://my.yb.tl/gannet
each blue dot is 24 hours. Sent at noon gmt each day.
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The official Irish report into the fatal gybe, broach and capsize of a 1996 Drascombe Lugger has now been published here http://www.mcib.ie/download_stream/?id=acc74cc4aa9d33cd
The report does not answer the questions on the Drascombe Forum about whether a lack of mainsail boom (or possibly having a mizzen set) contributed to the accident. It is clearer about what would have made the consequences of the gybe and capsize more survivable.
Have a look at the (Irish?) Drascombe Association's response (at the back of the report) to the recommendation in paragraph 6.1 that some sort of retaining mechanism is retrofitted to old Luggers to prevent the centreboard retracting when the boat turns turtle. Is there something about older Luggers that would make this unfeasible or undesirable?
They are more enthusiastic about the recommendation in 6.3 that buoyancy is upgraded in pre-RCD boats to comply with Category C standards. As Jonathan pointed out earlier, not everyone agrees that this is a good idea.
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Apropos 'Durdle Door' (I really must stop dragging this into the conversation at any opportunity), boats turning turtle and centreboards retracting is liable to provoke an episode of PTSD in yours truly. NB - ONLY JOKING. But a ducking and then an upturned hull with nothing to provide righting leverage is more than a bit daunting. I am pleased to report that the mod I made to Cavatina's dagger board (described elsewhere) works a treat.
Michael
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From what I remember of the arguments of Jonathan's erstwhile "prolific contributor", post-RCD additional buoyancy in the Lugger makes it even more difficult to right the boat once it has turtled. Pre-RCD boats were already stable when inverted. With extra buoyancy, the upturned hull floats higher in the water and the amount of mass that needs to be righted is therefore greater.
Apparently, voluntary capsize experiments with Drascombes at a Sail Caledonia many years ago inspired Matt to develop his asymmetric capsize buoyancy system. At least one turtled BR20 owner has successfully deployed this in real world conditions, sailing away unaided from complete inversion in gusty winds in only a few minutes. In fact the whole incident was over so fast that most of us that were there didn't even know that it had happened. I remember wondering why his crew looked so damp.
If extra buoyancy in your Drascombe makes you even more stable when inverted, and in addition you have no leverage because your centreboard has retracted, then as Michael says, you have virtually no hope of righting your boat. Although the Irish authorities don't explicitly say so, the Drascombe skipper might have had a better chance of climbing back on the upturned hull if he and his crew had had something substantial like a centreboard to hold on to.
The report mentions the debate about whether a Drascombe can be successfully righted from inversion without concluding either way. One sensible person on the Drascombe Forum has suggested that the best solution for Drascombes is more buoyancy allied with a masthead float to prevent turtling. That won't solve the problem with swamping and the centreboard slot that Julian describes but it would be an improvement.
What's really sobering is that whatever boat you have been tipped out of, you can quickly succumb to hypothermia in water that is 17°C, especially if you are only wearing lightweight summer clothes. Bala at the moment is just over 10°C and Loch Ness is around 5°C.
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Going back to the more recent Poole Harbour Drascombe swamping, here's a screen grab from the harbour CCTV. Somewhat surreal but at least it's the right way up! I think the dark shapes amidships are probably the skipper and Leo the dog.
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With extra buoyancy, the upturned hull floats higher in the water and the amount of mass that needs to be righted is therefore greater.
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What's really sobering is that whatever boat you have been tipped out of, you can quickly succumb to hypothermia in water that is 17°C, especially if you are only wearing lightweight summer clothes. Bala at the moment is just over 10°C and Loch Ness is around 5°.
(the following is written with my dinghy sailing hat on - and experience from those days!)
Extra buoyancy is invaluable once the boat is back upright - it gives you a possible chance of bailing out despite waves sloshing into the hull; with a self-draining cockpit it allows it to self drain! However while the boat is capsized it has disadvantages: on its side the boat is higher out of the water, it blows down wind faster if you are detached from it, it is harder to get onto the centreboard, and the mast is angled down with much of the sail under water and acting to turtle the boat.
Once turtled, the extra buoyancy makes it harder to get your weight far enough outboard to get the centre of gravity outboard of the centre of buoyancy (see my library article on water ballast). Even if the centreboard has not retracted, holding on to it and leaning back probably won't work. And that's if you can actually managed to get on to the buoyant, slippery, inverted hull in the first place. We used to use a jib sheet thrown over the hull to be able to lean back far enough to get the boat to start to "de-invert". Of course that doesn't work if you have a continuous sheet. Many dinghy sailors nowadays appear to fit "righting lines" - a light knotted rope running around the outside of the hull just under the gunwhale from near the shroud plate, around the stern and forward to the other shroud plate held in place by bits of split tubing and/or a section of shock cord. This serves the same purpose as the jib sheet but is more readily available and helps a fast recovery.
With regard to water temperature, at 10°C or 5°C in Loch Ness, cold shock will kill you much faster than hypothermia - which is a good argument for having some sort of buoyancy aid or flotation clothing (as being discussed elsewhere on the forum) rather than a deflated manual lifejacket - the former give you time to get your breathing under control before starting to perform a recovery.
Peter
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The debate about turtling continues on the Drascombe forum - see the new thread "Lugger Buoyancy and Centerplate Safety Recommendations". I can't provide a link because the DA doesn't allow it, for reasons that are best known to themselves. See what happens when you follow this link http://www.drascombe-association.org.uk/vbforum/showthread.php?4516-Lugger-Buoyancy-and-Centerplate-Safety-Recommendations
The most sensible suggestion to date on that forum, to fit some sort of masthead buoyancy device to prevent turtling in the first place, appears to have been almost entirely ignored. I haven't seen any heated responses from Germany recently, which is disappointing as it usually provides good sport.
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Just use...
http://www.drascombe-association.org.uk/vbforum/showthread.php?4516
to view the thread,
Peter
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Peter,
I just tried that and got the same unfriendly message - see below.
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As sailors of a certain experience, as we all are, should we realy be talking of capsizing a 20 ft boat?
Upwind........jib sheet out'ish
Downwind... Main sheet in'ish
But keep it flat.
Whichever, you have to feel the boat and the sails as one:"balance". On a fetch you will "wizz" past unbalanced boats. KEEP IT FLAT!
And if you keep it flat, you won't capsize. (my connection to the thread).
ps Rustie has been getting a new gum shield fitted for the battle ahead at Mylor.
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Help please. I am confused, not a hard thing to do, I admit! :o
I see "Fetch" used to describe a heading and am having difficulty figuring out what the heading, or, tack direction is.
From my sailing terms dictionary.
Fetch
1. The distance across water which a wind or waves have traveled.
2. To reach a mark without tacking.
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I use the term fetch to describe a very fine reach.
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Peter,
I just tried that and got the same unfriendly message - see below.
Graham, try using a computer... I don't have an ipad but if i try to access it using my iphone I get an error (different to yours but not showing the thread. Either the iphone does not transmit the whole address or (more likely) the Drascombe web-site has detected that it is a mobile device and is trying to serve mobile formatted pages that don't work properly.
As sailors of a certain experience, as we all are, should we realy be talking of capsizing a 20 ft boat?
"Shit happens!"
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I am in awe of people who never make mistakes so I find the open discussion, including sharing mistakes and lessons on this forum, helpful to improve my ability.
At Mylor Andrew will not be with me so I’m leaving my gum shield at home and look forward to relaxed sailing in good company, learning a few things and having fun.
Matthew
BR20 Gladys
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It is certainly a sport where you never stop learning and every sail is different. I think that is part of the attraction.
It's easy to talk the perfect "yot" but much harder to walk the walk: if you will excuse the mixing of metaphors!
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Another recruit for the Honourable Society of Turtlers http://intheboatshed.net/2016/01/13/a-january-cruise-round-the-isle-of-wight-in-a-drascombe-and-how-it-all-went-wrong/
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This looks as good a place as any to discuss some of what happens when you recover from inversion in a GRP BR20. Better here than the locker seal demilitarised zone anyway!
When I turtled, unballasted and solo, in the Fal in 2015 and once I was the right way up again, I had a list to port and an enormous amount of water in the cockpit sole. I hadn't heard of Matthew's excellent tip of removing cockpit sole water double-quick by opening the inspection hatch into the empty ballast tank (and the tank being empty was why I capsized in the first place). I'll certainly try that trick if (when?) it happens to me next time. On that occasion I did lots of pumping with my transom-mounted Whale pump.
The list to port partly sorted itself out as the port ACB tank emptied itself into the outboard well but there was also a large amount of water in the port locker, which had come in over the unsealed locker rims fore and aft. Photo below, soon after righting, with the wind coming over the starboard side.
I think it might be worth installing a port locker drain in the vertical wall of that locker, at the point where it is just above the level of the cockpit sole. A non-return valve or flap might protrude into the locker, or the cockpit, or both and be another source of potential leaks into the locker in wet conditions. What about a simple and robust large diameter captive bung, as used in the sump at the back of the boat? https://www.ronstan.co.uk/marine5/product.asp?prodno=RF294. Just unscrew it and let most of the locker water drain away into the cockpit (and then into the ballast tank) while you attend to other matters, like stopping your oars from floating away. There would still be a bit of water left in the locker where it is lower than the cockpit sole but I don't think it would be enough to produce any sort of list. If you eventually sailed off on a port tack, the heel to starboard would get rid of more water. You would just need to remember to screw the bung back in when it had done its job.
I think this would be better than what I had to do on the Fal, which was to open my starboard locker to find my hand pump, then open the port locker to pump the water out. Luckily for me and for the other BR20 that turtled, the sudden stingjet, katabatic downdraft or whatever it was that flattened both of us quickly blew itself out. We could therefore sort ourselves out in weirdly benign conditions. It wouldn't have been a good idea to have been opening lockers in a high wind.