Swallow Yachts Association
Swallow Yachts Forum => Technical => Topic started by: Matthew P on 18 Mar 2016, 04:58
-
Has anyone got advice on cooking stoves?
Ideally it should be safe, effective, simple and quick to operate, stable (ie not a tottering tower) not bulky to stow and - cheap!
The convenience of gas bottle stoves (especially the cheap flat square type)appeals to me but I fear leaks causing gas to leak and collect in the bottom of the boat, especially the sump below the petrol driven outboard. Am I over-concerned?
Spirit stoves might be a solution? Trangia types have a good reputation but the cooking set models look a bit unstable and although light weight a bit dinky (crushable!).
I have a cherished old Primus which is fun to use but pressurised fuel and potential flare-ups are not acceptable on board.
Has anyone other ideas or recommendations?
Matthew
Gadys BR20
-
Matthew,
I have a complete set of kitchen units here in Ethiopia but for some reason it doesn't have a ring or cooker. Don't ask!
So I cook regularly on my Trangia using meths, which is available out here. It's slower than gas but still does the job and isn't nearly as risky to use in confined spaces. It all seems reasonably robust but of course it is designed for backpacking rather being trodden on by crewmates, so is light and a bit deformable.
This (or something like it) may be an answer to the Trangia stability problem http://www.swallowyachtsassociation.org/smf/index.php/topic,415.msg2221.html#msg2221
-
I've enjoyed using a Trangia when camping on land, but for a boat would strongly recommend one of the flat square type "butane" stoves. With regard to leaks make sure you get one certified for indoor use. I use the Brightspark BS100. These have a safety cut-off which stops the gas flow if the flame goes out. Similarly it prevents the gas flow if the gas cylinder is primed but the flame not lit and you knock the nob. These are more expensive than the "outdoor only" type... £30 to £40 depending on the finish (compared to less than £20 for an indoor model). By the way, note that the cheaper outdoor ones are often advertised as having a "safety cut-off" but this only refers to a device to prevent over pressure (which all the stoves have), not a cut-off for the flame being out.
On Seatern I've been using one of those expensive Origo spirit stoves using bio-ethanol to avoid the smell of meths. This has the advantage of working at low (near zero C and below) temperatures but is sometimes hard to light and is slower than the butane type... provided the butane cylinder is not too cold. I'm seriously thinking of swapping over to using a butane stove (which I presently use to power my Pan200 boat heater). For most conditions the much cheaper butane stove would be far superior. It boils faster and gives off much less CO in use.
With regard to using butane in cold weather, use a "Butane" cartridge containing a butane/propane mixture (e.g. Brightspark A4 Butane Battery) rather than a pure butane one. Most of the "butane" cartidges, particularly cheaper ones, are pure butane and you have to read the contents to see if propane is included. Also be prepared to sleep with it in your sleeping bag (make sure the valve protector is in place) and for faster cooking in cold weather used two cartridges, warming one while the other is in use (but not above 50C !).
More info on my own experiences in my Seatern blog, look for equipment pages under summary files.
Peter
-
Another fine debate you’ve got us into, Matthew.
I’ll use a Trangia. I fear meths less than gas. I intend to try to fit a cheap spill-proof meths burner in my Trangia (from www.speedsterstoves.co.uk ). I’m surprised by Matthew’s and Graham’s comments: dinky and deformable. Trangias seem robust to me. And I’m not overly concerned about stability. But maybe I’ll change my mind when I try it out in the boat.
If I was prepared to spend money, that Origo looks the part.
I’m more concerned about the proximity of the petrol outboard motor and the spare can of petrol. My preferred solution, learnt when back-packing, would be not to cook. No stove means no waiting around for food, no fears about the tent going up in flames or else freezing to death tending the stove outside the tent. It means no cooking paraphernalia, no washing up. It also means no crew: I’ve yet to convince anyone.
Lone John
-
Choice of stove on a BR20 or other open boat depends on how much cooking you do. If you just want a brew-up, go with the Trangia. The back packers cook set has a great, well shielded kettle but choose the gas burner or multi-fuel version, not the alcohol burner. (Meths burners are efficient but burn dry without warning and, if you spill any meths when re-filling, like as not you will set your trousers afire sooner or later. )
If you are cruising in a dinghy, not just day sailing from pub to pub, you will want to do some proper cooking ...and that means proper pans. Backpackers need ultra light gear so Trangia pans etc are thin aluminium. They heat up quickly (saving fuel) and cool down even quicker. The only thing that is good for is fresh mussels, a stir fry or maybe something in a tin. Baked beans, ready made stew, cook-in sauce and other abominations. Try anything more ambitious and it will stick and burn. Get some decent, heavy pans especially for the boat, don't pinch them from your kitchen but - most important, this - use them at home first to season them. Try out your recipes before you go sailing, too.You don't want to mess about when you're cold and hungry.
Serious pans need a serious burner. Paraffin pressure stoves churn out the most heat but who wants paraffin on a small boat? Everything aboard will reek of it inside 5 minutes! I use two of the stoves shown in the photo. The cheap one shown costs less than a tenner and a posh stainless steel model will set you back around £30. They are stable, give an easily controlled flame, have piezo-electric ignition and pack away in a neat case. You can't pack them away dangerously hot as you have to reverse the trivet to shut the case. The cartridges are relatively expensive but self-seal so no need for a vented gas locker. I never cook or eat in the cabin, always in the open cockpit. This avoids problems with condensation, carbon monoxide and spillages caused by passing ferries. Cook under the spray hood if it's raining. (The only serious fire I've seen on a dinghy was caused by an attempt at a fry-up in the rain. The rain sinks to the bottom of the cold oil and when it heats up and boils, oil is splattered everywhere.)
What to cook is down to personal taste and common sense ...and the limits imposed by your ability to clean your pans and dispose of waste without polluting the boat or the environment. e.g. Use rice, not potatoes. (No peelings to dispose of.) I have a score of well tried recipes which I'll post on my blog ...one day.
I have to agree with Jonno in one respect. There are plenty of waterside pubs serving food and good draught beer so don't cook if you dont have too!
-
I think I'm becoming a bit of an anorak with regard to butane stoves and "butane" cylinders but it took me a long time to realise they are not all the same! Beware if you are buying!
A quick look at Amazon suggests that the stove illustrated by Tony comes in two identical looking types. The "Campingaz Camp'Bistro Cooker" is available at £8-30 and another type - "Campingaz Camp'Bistro Cooker with Stopgas System" for £39... apparently its only available in France and Germany but you can buy on Amazon. The "stopgas" system stops the flow of gas if the flame is not lit. That is similar to the almost identical looking Brightspark BS100 which I use (price £30 or more for stainless steel).
I'd recommend the "stop-gas" feature on a boat since if you cook in the open the flame could blow out and there's a (slight?) chance that butane might accumulate somewhere. If you cook in the cabin (eg boil a kettle) then it would seem even more important to have that cut-off. (if you do cook in the cabin be aware that CO is produced... get a digital CO alarm!) .
All these square "butane" cookers look almost identical and it can be difficult to be sure which you are buying. You can tell if the stove has a cut-off device because when you light it you have to hold the gas control knob at full open for 5 to 10 seconds while the cut-off device warms up. See if the instructions tell you to do that!
The cylinders also come in different versions. The Campingaz CP250 "Butane" cartridge recommended for their Camp'Bistro Cooker is a propane/butane mix with 220g of gas in the cylinder. Again that is similar to the Brightspark A4 "Butane" Battery. Cheaper cylinders usually contain 200g of butane (no propane). In warm weather it won't make much difference (indeed the cheaper "butane only" might even be better). In cold weather butane/propane is better particularly if you have a fresh cartridge. In very cold weather use a fresh cartridge to warm up a part used one (with care!), then swap over. If it's below freezing either keep a cartridge intimately close to you before use, or use a spirit stove!
Sorry, I'll now retreat to my butane/propane warmed BC20!
Peter
-
I like Jonno's don't-cook solution but raw Mars bars lose appeal after a day so I prefer to deep fry them in batter and have hot chocolate sauce with my Kendal mint cake after. And Mrs Peacock expects the sort of fare that Tony has promised us recipes for. So I need a stove.
I had not realised, until Peter explained, the subtle but vital safety differences between cheap outdoor square stoves and indoor versions fitted with stop-gas systems. Although I have used them up until now I think there is an inherent risk with gas collecting in the bottom of the boat, so I am attracted by spirit stoves.
As Graham knows, but is kind enough not to mention, my 17 stone teetering about in size 12 boots will crush most things so Trangias are not an option. Meanness and bulk rule out Origos although I just missed a double burner version on Ebay for £80.
I had a look at Jonno's suggested www.speedsterstoves.co.uk which offers my sort of technology; simple, cheap and hopefully effective. So now I plan to gut my square gas stoves and fit (well, wedge-in) spirit burners instead. The square stove carcasses are robust, stable and as Tony points out pack down neatly and maybe I could use large spirit burners for rapid heat and smaller ones for simmering. I notice Speedster Stoves also offer efficient looking foldable heat shields that fit tightly around pans, so even with heavy pans favoured by Tony (and me, actually) spirit burners will be effective.
Although I'm not planning to cook in confined spaces, do spirit burners generate much condensation, or worse, noxious gas?
Thanks for your advice everyone and I look forward to Tony's recipes.
Matthew
BR20 Gladys
-
Although I'm not planning to cook in confined spaces, do spirit burners generate much condensation, or worse, noxious gas?
COMPLETE combustion of either ethanol (as in meths, or less smelly, bio-ethanol) or butane produces "harmless" carbon dioxide and water vapour and nothing else. The proportion of water vapour (compared to CO2) produced is greater for ethanol - resulting in more condensation if used in the boat. With complete combustion the flame should be pale blue in colour. However, neither my Origo stove nor my Brightspark "butane" stove achieve complete combustion as evidenced by dangerous carbon monoxide (CO) being detected by my digital alarm. Any yellow in the flame is also evidence of incomplete combustion and associated soot and CO formation.
In summer conditions the butane stove is being supplied with fuel at pressure so burns faster and produces more heat than a spirit stove. The spirit stove also burns less efficiently and needs to be burning longer Thus the spirit stove produces more water vapour and a (measurably) greater amount of carbon monoxide. A given weight of butane produces over twice as much heat as the same weight of ethanol - so you have to carry a greater weight of fuel in the boat. It is for all these reasons I'm thinking of replacing my expensive Origo spirit stove with a much cheaper Brightspark butane stove.
The snag is in winter things change. A butane cartridge contains butane (!) which (because it is under pressure) is liquid and must boil to provide the gas burnt by the stove. At atmospheric pressure the boiling point of butane is around zero. As the butane boils off it cools the cartridge significantly. So if the temperature is, say 8C, the cartridge may cool to near freezing and the butane supply to the stove is poor to non-existent. Cooking with butane will then take much longer and more CO and water vapour is produced. In these conditions a spirit stove is better.
The boiling point of propane is -42C hence the propane can act to keep a butane/propane cartridge at pressure and improve the cold weather performance. That is why propane is added to Campingaz and Brightspark "butane" cartridges. But, starting with a new cartridge, the propane will boil off faster and the proportion of butane in the cartridge will increase as the cartridge is used. If it's cold, always start with a new cartridge.
So in winter a spirit stove will work when a butane stove will not... unless you make sure you can start with a warm cartridge; e.g. keep it in your sleeping bag at night! And while using a new cartridge carefully warm up, and then swap to, a part used one. Placing a cartridge in warm water (into which you can put your fingers without scalding) should provide a safe amount of warmth.
Peter
-
Thank you Peter for your explanation in plain English but based on science.
Thank you too for your detailed and useful notes at http://www.seatern.org.uk/SeaternDiaries/diary_2015_may.php?year=-15
Matthew
BR20 Gladys
-
Chicken Tikka Masala (tinned from M&S) and rice cooking on my Trangia in Addis Ababa. What could be more English?
-
Tabasco and chilli sauce in the background. Says all you need to know about M&S curries!
Those pans look a little more substantial than the ones I got with my Trangia - my 30 year old Trangia, that is.
Still going strong but never on my boat.
Meths scares me !
-
I'll instruct my quartermaster to add M&S tinned Chicken Tikka Masala to Gladys's provisions list.
W H Tilman always took Tobasco sauce with him on his Mischief voyages but I'm not sure how well it goes with Mars bars deep fried in batter.
Matthew
BR20 Gladys
-
I shall as always be using my MSR with Coleman fuel. Have always cooked in a tent and never had a problem. Much prefer the power to heat water fast and the control of the flame for simmering. Much better than waiting for a guttering trangia or a gas stove that needs a new cartridge every few minutes. We tested it against a trangia at Christmas to settle an argument and it boiled 3 litres before the trangia did 1. I think a chicken tikka would be about a minute and a half ( although I guess in Addis the starting temp is different!)
Currently working on some sort of galley arrangement to mount it in one of the lockers but as yet despite various bits of ply cut the final version has not come into my head yet. Hopefully it will before all the wood gets too small ..
-
Like Tim I am a fan of my MSR Whisperlite - boils water very quickly and efficiently, fuel is readily available and it can be fully stripped down and serviced if there are ever any problems. My other favourite is a Coleman Alpine gas stove and that's the one I more often use on the boat. It disconnects from the gas cans when not in use so packs away very small and I've never known a self-sealing can to leak. Also means you can use cold weather fuel mixes if required. I note that MSR now makes a Whisperlite Universal that runs on upturned gas cylinders as well as liquid fuels so I would buy one if I could justify another stove...
My very simple galley arrangement is two blocks of wood that fit over the rowing thwart to make a larger table - see attached pic. Wood blocks are held together by webbing on the top and a line underneath (attached to one block and that runs to a clamcleat on the other block) which can be tensioned to hold the blocks in place.
-
I was reading the Jan/Feb issue of Water Craft the other day (it takes a while to get out here) and noticed that at the top of page 65 is a photo of Roger Barnes with his kettle and stove on board his 14ft cruising dinghy. The kettle is a Trangia and judging by the imperfect yellow combustion in the background, his burner is too.
Now Barnes, in addition to being President of the DCA, is a living god in the dinghy cruising world (his mostly female crewmates seem to think so anyway). So if Trangia is good enough for him, it's good enough for me. We could confirm this one way or another by seeing what he says in his book 'The Dinghy Cruising Companion' - but my copy is 4,000 miles away. I don't think boiling speed is of the essence, otherwise we would all be roaring around on pestilential jet skis, instead of sailing serenely in our Swallows.
-
Sorry to disappoint you Graham, almost a Trangia but not quite. In his book The Dinghy Cruising Companion, Roger Barnes describes his stove as a Swedish single-burner alcohol stove made of stainless steal and the accompanying photo looks like an Origo 1500.
Your mention of "Bully Barnes" success at attracting and retaining crew (despite exposing them to wave, wind, rain and confrontations with the SBS) to his cooking. Which is why I propose to start a thread "What to Cook" in the hope that it will inspire contributions to extend my culinary efforts between Mars bars, hot and cold and potentially, tins of curry.
Matthew
BR20 Gladys
-
Here's an interesting set of articles on stoves and their fuels from Ekofuel, a supplier of bio ethanol products, touted as a clean replacement for meths http://www.ekofuel.org/blog/
Quite a few of Ekofuel's products are out of stock. I'm not sure if this is because they are struggling to keep up with demand or just struggling. They have a marine range targeted at Origo owners that is not currently available. The range for Trangia-type burners is only available in 0.5l bottles.
Bio ethanol seems to have plenty in its favour compared to meths, except price - it is at least 50% more expensive per litre.
-
Jonathan Stuart said:
'...I've never known a self-sealing can to leak'
I read a saga in the last few months (I think in a UK yachting comic) about a chap with a disposable gas canister stove on a small yacht. He dutifully read the instructions (!), which said something like 'Remove gas canister when not in us for more than a short period'. He was about to leave his boat for a while, so he took the canister out to discover it then leaked. From memory, he reinstalled it, but it continued to leak round the connection point. At this stage he couldn't leave it in the cabin, he couldn't leave it in the cockpit (non self draining), and heaving it over the side was not an option for obvious reasons. I forget what he did with it, but even as an isolated event, it put me off disposable gas canisters. How do 'solid alcohol' tablets perform?
-
How do 'solid alcohol' tablets perform?
I haven't tried them but they seem to get a good press in terms of energy intensity, clean burn etc. Apparently they are used by the army, particularly on special ops. The bean-counter in me had to calculate relative costs of boiling a litre of water. I reckon that for the tablets it's in the region of 70p, while bio ethanol is about 12p. This probably explains why hexamine is more used in special situations than for everyday camping.
-
Deep within the Ekofuel blog (on page 2 near the bottom), they make this misleading marketing statement:
"As you may be aware methylated spirit, the traditionally used fuel for alcohol camping stoves in the UK has been outlawed by European legislation as at July 2013. It was deemed unsafe because of its high methanol content, which was in the recipe as the denaturant to ensure the alcohol was unfit for human consumption."
In fact what happened was a change in the formulation to a new pan-European standard, with methanol removed and other denaturants substituted. UK "Meths" still exists in its smelly purple-coloured form, is still cheap and still works in alcohol stoves. It is just different to how it used to be in a way that most people wouldn't notice.
-
I bought 20L of "Odourless bioethanol fuel" from http://www.contemporaryelements.co.uk/ (splitting the purchase with a neighbour) and it's so much better than meths I don't mind the extra cost. However I keep thinking of getting rid of my Origo stove and using a flat butane one (of the type designed for indoor use).
With regard to self-sealing butane canisters, I've used a huge number of them since I use them to heat Seatern during the winter. One can heats Seatern for the evening and for a short time the following morning. I'm constantly taking them in and out of the stove and I've never known one leak. I use A4 Butane Battery bought from JFA/Bright Spark in boxes of 28 because they contain a propane/butane mix - better for winter. But if one did leak you could empty it in the open air simply by pressing down the top nozzle (holding the can in a glove - it would get very cold!).
Peter
p.s. no, the fumes/water vapour from the butane don't enter the cabin - I use a pan2000 heater which vents through a chimney in the cabin roof!
-
My stove is a Dometic, Origo 1500. It is housed in a box which straddles the thwart with lugs so it cannot move but the cooker can swing on its gimbal. See picture. I used it for two weeks on our Scottish trip. The down side was that it impeded access to the lockers, especially if we neglected some essential ingredients or cooking implement. Stowage was awkward as I had to place it in the cabin when not in use. I now intend to fit the cooker into a locker but it will also still be removable if necessary. We also seemed to be shoving a lot of Meths into it, but at the end of the trip I had quite a few bottles left over: panic buying may been the cause of this. So I have not got a clue as to the consumption; therefore it wasn't that bad.
-
Here's a comprehensive website on stoves, with a bias towards the alcohol-fuelled type but including discussion of every other kind http://zenstoves.net. It includes instructions on how to make your own ultralight stoves out of drink cans. This may sound somewhat eccentric but apparently some types are more efficient at heating with alcohol fuel than the standard Trangia type. In particular the Penny Stove is nearly twice as fast at boiling water http://www.jureystudio.com/pennystove/.
-
If meths/ethanol is too slow as a fuel and you don't like gas, this stuff may be an alternative and is cheaper than Coleman Fuel http://www.swallowyachtsassociation.org/smf/index.php/topic,1377.msg10207.html#msg10207
-
I think that I have landed on the perfect stove/cookware combination for my BR20, based on Swedish Trangia in various flavours.
First the cookware. Until about 10 years ago, Trangia used to make some pans from aluminium and stainless steel pressed together at high pressure. The outside of the pans was aluminium for good heat conductivity, while the inside was stainless steel for ruggedness and scour resistance. Pans can still occasionally be found on eBay and there is one online store in France that is miraculously still selling full kits. Search for Trangia Duossal and/or Pyrene-Bushcraft. Trangia have replaced Duossal with hard anodised non-stick aluminium but it is quite easy to scratch and damage the pan surface, which doesn't last nearly as well.
For the heat source and if time is not important, the cheap Trangia spirit burner that comes with the full Trangia set is bombproof and works well, if slowly. Fuel for the burner should be bioethanol instead of meths, which is smellier, slightly slower and not so clean burning. If your time is important, get as an add-on a gas burner and self-sealing gas canister with a butane/propane mix. The robust Trangia version fits perfectly with the rest of the kit, burns cleanly and can boil water in about a third the time of the spirit burner. It is also easier to control the flame. There is a cheaper Go Systems gas burner that also fits with the Trangia kit.
For astonishing versatility at high cost, the Trangia X2 multifuel burner (based on the Primus Omnifuel) is hard to beat - it can burn canister gas and in addition a whole range of pressurised liquid fuels. However, it is quite noisy, even when running on canister gas. Worse, the priming process for pressurised liquid fuels is time-consuming, fiddly and can take your eyebrows off (or set fire to your boat). There are remedies for both problems: pour on a dose of bioethanol rather than releasing pressurised liquid fuel for priming; and get a metal silent cap for the burner. If you have the X2 (running on canister gas) and the spirit burner, you have all bases covered. With two Trangia sets, you can boil water or cook on the gas and simultaneously cook/simmer something else on the spirit burner.
One more thing with the X2 - if you run your outboard on Aspen alkylated petrol, which I will be doing from next season, it can also be used as a relatively clean pressurised liquid fuel in the stove. Useful if you run out of canister gas or it won't work properly because it is too cold.
-
Some stove measurements: a Trangia gas burner running on butane/propane takes about 3 minutes to boil a pint of water; a silenced Trangia X2 multifuel burner using pressurised Aspen 4 alkylate petrol takes slightly longer but when priming and other bits of faffing around are taken into account, takes much longer; and the simple spirit burner running on bioethanol takes about 8 minutes. All in perfect conditions - if it had been cold or windy, I'm sure that the times would have been different.
For reference, a fast electric kettle running on 240V takes about a minute and a half to boil. So the Trangia gas burner, which is clean and simple and doesn't need priming, performs well but with all the usual risks of having gas on board. The X2 burns just about anything but it's quite a performance to get it going, so won't be used much in future. And the spirit burner is safest and possibly the best choice for a boat if you're not in a hurry. I'll probably use a combination of the gas burner for fast boiling and a spirit burner for everything else.
The Aspen 4 petrol, in addition to being much cheaper than Coleman Fuel (white spirit), burns much cleaner, quite a bit faster and with less smell. If you have both a multifuel burner and a 4-stroke outboard (also running on Aspen 4), it's a useful back-up if all else fails but otherwise I wouldn't bother.
-
To follow on from Graham... some kettle measurements: about a year ago I tested a new kettle with with "heat transfer technology(!)" - basically an annular false bottom which is connected to the main kettle with heat exchange fins (on the left in the attached photo). I bought one from Angling Direct which was far cheaper than I'd previously seen them in Cotswold. The heat source was a flat butane cartridge stove with Brightspark "Butane Battery" cartridges (which are a butane/propane mix). For each test I used a new cartridge and measured the time to boil 0.5 litre of water (about 1 pint). The water was initially at 16C and this was done in my house - no wind, rain etc.
The whistling kettle (right in photo, base diameter 18.5cm, weight empty 417g) took 3 min 45 sec. The new kettle (15cm, 303g) took 3min 15sec. The little alloy kettle from my trusty Trangia camping set (12cm, 143g, 0.5l capacity) took 3min 50sec - almost as quick as the stainless steel kettle.
So the conclusion was that the new kettle was indeed faster despite being more compact. In fact for me its main advantage is not speed of boiling but that it is lighter and easier to store.
Peter
Before someone asks, no the new kettle does not whistle, but nor does the "whistling" kettle when used on a spirit stove or on a butane stove with a part used gas cartridge!
-
Following Bill's recommendation last spring I bought a Brukit from Alpkit. This comprises an insulated 1 ltr aluminium pot with a heat exchanger built into the base that locks onto a burner unit fuelled by a butane cylinder. It's not stable on it's own but is easy to wedge upright and packs down into its own pot.
Performance on my sheltered patio - so very light breeze
19 C air temp
1 Ltr tap water, temp not checked but guessing about 10 C
Primus Propane-Isobutane 450g cylinder (not recommended by Alpkit! - they recommend 250gm)
Used 25gm of gas - so 10 boils (8 boils to be cautious) out of a 250gm cylinder
It boiled in 5 mins, so slightly faster per ltr than Peter's kettle - although rate boiling speed versus volume of water may not be linear.
Camping on board with it last summer was a great success. I only used it to boil water, primarily for my tea-porridge-tea-porridge-breakfast and lunch regime, with the porridge being made in wide neck thermos, so the Brukit pot never needed cleaning. In the evening we used a square "pancake" style butane cartridge stove to heat alternatives to porridge.
I see that Alpkit no longer sell the Brukit but have replaced it with the very similar Brukit Wolf and a smaller version Brukit Jackal. See https://www.alpkit.com/products/brukit-wolf.
Matthew
BR20 Gladys
-
We have Jetboil flash, which appears to be similar to Mathews. Time of boil the "two cup" capacity is around 2 mins.
My use is similar to Mathews with tea, soup and freeze dried hiking food packets. Hits the spot for warmth and easy to use.
http://www.jetboil.com/
-
A final Trangia word: they sell a "winter attachment" for their spirit burner that is intended for priming said burner from underneath in harsh winter conditions, when the meths or bioethanol might otherwise not catch light readily. Primed underneath with a couple of drops of bioethanol (and that's all it needs at room temperature), the time that the burner takes to boil a pint of water drops from eight minutes to less than six, including priming time. Surprisingly fast for such an unsophisticated piece of equipment and faster than the Trangia X2 multifuel stove burning pressurised Coleman Fuel (at risk to life and limb).
Here is a summary of the boiling times in minutes for various permutations in ascending order:
Kenwood electric kettle (on the 240V mains) 1.3
Trangia gas burner, Coleman gas cartridge 3.0
Trangia X2 multifuel, Aspen 4, Omnidawg silent cap, 37mm jet 3.1*
Trangia X2 multifuel, Coleman gas cartridge, Omnidawg silent cap, 45mm jet 3.4
Trangia X2 multifuel, Coleman gas cartridge, Omnidawg silent cap, 37mm jet 3.5
Trangia X2 multifuel, Coleman gas cartridge, 32mm jet 3.8
Trangia X2 multifuel, Aspen 4, 32mm jet 4.9*
Trangia spirit burner bioethanol, winter attachment 5.9
Trangia X2 multifuel, Coleman Fuel, 32mm jet 6.5*
Trangia spirit burner, bioethanol 7.9
Trangia spirit burner, meths 8.0
Esbit spirit burner, bioethanol 8.5
Esbit spirit burner, meths 10.0
* Does not include priming or burning off time (to remove remaining fuel from the system and to depressurise it), both of which take about two minutes
-
solid fuel tablets (hexamine) are another good solution. always work, doesn't matter if they get wet. Used these a lot in the army (mainly for heating up compo in a mess tin, and boiling water) plus the added pleasure of hours of scrubbing the mess tin so you can see your face in it again! .. I am not selling this well am I?
With a bit of ingenuity you could probably fit a simple stove plus kettle or pan into a biscuit tin arrangement and hang it from the boom with chains. that would stop you burning through your deck and deal with the boat movement.
-
Forgive me Steve, but hexy blocks could never be a good solution to anything - apart from maybe starting bonfires..!
Just the mention of that word 'hexamine' takes me back too many years. Not to mention the smell!
There was a good reason why we carried a small calor gas burner in the water bottle pouch of 58 pattern webbing - fitted perfectly.. and so much cleaner and quicker for a brew - al fresco.
Got me yearning for tinned babies heads and dogs bo!!ocks again.. happy days!
-
Hexamine is also quite expensive compared to liquid and gas fuels - approximately 5 times more for the heat provided. If you're only using it on an occasional short trip the relative expense probably doesn't matter.
If you're not happy using liquid fuel on board, I read somewhere that it's possible to jellify bioethanol by combining it with calcium acetate. You end up with the sort of stuff that restaurants use to keep their chafing dishes warm. You can make your own calcium acetate by soaking eggshells in vinegar. I think that life is probably too short!
-
Until about 10 years ago, Trangia used to make some pans from aluminium and stainless steel pressed together at high pressure. The outside of the pans was aluminium for good heat conductivity, while the inside was stainless steel for ruggedness and scour resistance. Pans can still occasionally be found on eBay and there is one online store in France that is miraculously still selling full kits. Search for Trangia Duossal and/or Pyrene-Bushcraft. Trangia have replaced Duossal with hard anodised non-stick aluminium but it is quite easy to scratch and damage the pan surface, which doesn't last nearly as well.
It looks like Trangia have restarted production of their Duossal cooksets, both the smaller 27 series and the larger 25. In terms of weight, ruggedness, scratch resistance and the way they nest together to save space, the various pans, stove base and kettle are quite difficult to beat in a small boat.
The 27 has been available from Pyrene-Bushcraft in France for a while. Some enterprising Brits have been indulging in a bit of arbitrage, buying from France and then selling on eBay in the UK for two to three times more. The 25 is now available at Scandinavian stores and will probably turn up in the UK shortly, as will the 27. Photos of the 27 Duossal, packed and unpacked, below.
-
Sorry, "Re: Stoves", old chap.
I meant to congratulte you on your second birthday.
Still, better late than never! (A card is in the post, honest!)
By the way, I'm still using my flat, stable "Bistro" cooker with heavy pans for "serious" cooking and a second stove with a cheap whistling kettle for coffee. Very glad I don't have to worry about anything more efficient ...and I still NEVER cook or eat in the cabin, strictly a dry, spill-free zone for sleeping.
One advantage ( alright, the ONLY advantage) of "Four Sisters'" ' tiny cabin is that one, ordinary, "Boots" brand hot water bottle gives off enough heat to make it cosy when the night gets chilly. No smells, no carbon monoxide.
-
The Duossal has landed! https://www.outdooraction.co.uk/outdoor-travel-cooking-food-trangia/trangia/trangia-cooker-25-21-duosall-pans-with-spirit-burner-pd-13787.php?
A pretty hefty mark-up though. The same set in Sweden is about £80.
-
Dometic have ceased manufacture of their Origo spirit stoves, which means that if you want to use bioethanol or meths as a cooking fuel, you may be limited to Trangia-type burners.
Compass24 have a version of the Origo 3000 double burner that appears almost identical to the original. However, there have been complaints that they are poorly put together, so this is perhaps not such a good option.
-
Roger Barnes of Dinghy Cruising Companion fame has his own YouTube channel. His latest video (which he describes as geeky) is about his galley box, which contains an Origo 1500 stove https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LkjzXbbn1fA&feature=emb_logo.
-
As the Origo stove is no longer available, I got out my Trangia burners and reran the results that I first posted here https://www.swallowyachtsassociation.org/smf/index.php/topic,1305.msg10274.html#msg10274. In all cases, second time around was slower than the first time, possibly because I was using a pan instead of a kettle to boil the water.
Time in minutes to boil
2017 2020
Trangia gas burner, Coleman gas cartridge 3.0 3.1
Trangia X2 multifuel, Aspen 4,
Omnidawg silent cap, 37mm jet* 3.1 4.2
Trangia X2 multifuel, Coleman gas cartridge,
Omnidawg silent cap, 37mm jet 3.5 3.6
Trangia spirit burner bioethanol,
winter attachment 5.9 6.2
Trangia spirit burner bioethanol 7.9 8.7
* Does not include the significant time needed to prime or to turn off and burn excess fuel. Used a 32mm jet second time around
Conclusions? Leaking gas concerns apart, the Trangia gas burner is the safest, most convenient, hottest and most adjustable heat source. I'll be relying on that on future cruises and will get a second gas burner for when I'm aiming for grande cuisine. The cheap and cheerful Trangia spirit burners (bioethanol) will be kept in reserve. The Trangia X2 multifuel burner gives lots of flexibility when you run out of fuel and you can't get gas cartridges or bioethanol. However, its lengthy priming process with pressurised liquid fuels is quite scary, especially on a small boat, and the system will be going on eBay shortly.
-
Updating my small paragraph I wrote on 27th November 2016 about the Dometic , Origo 1500, placing it in a box and the pitfalls. Subsequently I fitted out my locker and made it into an ideal galley (see photos). This was ready at beginning spring 2017. As you may be able to see there is plenty room for stowage of food and pots etc. The end compartment next to the cubby contains the 12volt battery, charger and long lead hidden by a work surface. This work surface is supporting a nest of pans.
It’s a shame that this stove has been discontinued. I first discovered it from a demonstration by Dylan Winter (“Keep Turning Left”, YouTube). He demonstrated it could boil a kettle in 7 mins. The quantity of water used I just can’t remember. But it was true - it could boil water in the allotted time. But my MSR Dragon Fly was quicker, but I wouldn’t use this on the boat!! It’s like a blowlamp!
-
If you’re going to change your slow Trangia spirit burner for a speedy and easier to regulate gas burner, I recommend this, which is just as good as the Trangia original and half the price https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Genuine-Go-System-Adapt-Gas-Conversion-for-Trangia-stove-GS2000-CE-Approved/162388381341
-
Compass24 have a version of the Origo 3000 double burner that appears almost identical to the original. However, there have been complaints that they are poorly put together, so this is perhaps not such a good option.
It’s a bit worse than “poorly put together”, according to this account (at the bottom of the page) of the Compass24 stove causing a fire on board https://www.junkrigassociation.org/general_forum/8959664?tpg=2&mlpg=2#8959664. The main problem seems to be that the fuel tanks aren’t tall enough and therefore leak.
-
Now that Origo stoves are no longer made, the options for stoves with adjustable flames that run on meths or bioethanol are even more limited. However, HPV in Germany are still making these https://www.toplicht.de/en/shop/neu/neuigkeiten/spirituskocher-hpv?number=4323-002. The fuel is gravity-fed from a brass tank at the back of the stove (see below). The burner needs priming (a bit like the winter attachment for the Trangia) and if used on a boat, the stove should be located in a fireproof tray of some sort. It’s a lot cheaper to buy than a secondhand Origo (if you can find one).
-
More tests. The HPV Salsa mentioned above took a massive 12 minutes to boil a pint of water. In addition, it needed fairly substantial priming before it would work properly, by burning quite a lot of alcohol in a shallow pan that is fixed directly under the burner. This is OK on land but not such a good idea in a boat unless the whole stove is held in a fireproof tray of some sort - the lit primer fuel could easily spill out of the shallow primer pan.
The Origo 1500 took exactly six minutes to boil a pint of water without priming or any other complications. The Origo flame can easily be regulated - as it can on the Salsa but something that is more difficult to achieve on the alcohol Trangia. As for the cost of a secondhand Origo, Mark D and I have both found that it is possible to get lucky without paying a fortune. But you have to be quick if you find one as they are swiftly snapped up when reasonably priced.
-
There are currently two different Origo 1500’s being auctioned on eBay in the UK, including one that is gimballed inside a mahogany box.
-
This *looks* like an Origo 1500. Would others agree? It's £180 so not cheap but not 2nd hand.
https://www.compass24.com/comfort/pantry-grill-oven/stoves/203566/alcohol-pan-1500?number=414380_8
-
Paul,
This is almost certainly the single burner version of a stove that is alleged to have caused fires because the fuel container isn’t tall enough and leaks. See https://www.swallowyachtsassociation.org/smf/index.php/topic,1305.msg14082.html#msg14082. I’d treat both Compass24 lookalike versions with caution until they’re proved to be safe. I notice that there’s someone currently on eBay selling a used Compass24 as a “German-made” Origo, which it isn’t.
-
There are currently two different Origo 1500’s being auctioned on eBay in the UK, including one that is gimballed inside a mahogany box.
The stove in the rather fetching wooden box sold for £262!
Origo-Stove-on-a-Gimbal-in-a-Mahogany-Box-with-Carrying-Case
Condition:Used
Ended:21 Feb, 2021 19:53:19 GMT
Winning bid:£262.00[ 16 bids ]
Postage:Free collection in person
Item location:Midhurst, United Kingdom
-
And the one without the box or gimbals went for £201. There’s another one up for auction on eBay with six days to go. I think high prices are starting to flush out the sellers.
-
I think high prices are starting to flush out the sellers.
Certainly bringing out a warped view of the value of a second-hand stove...
I'm not saying my way is the right way but, as was pointed out on the first page of this thread, a new campingaz stove can be picked up for little more than a tenner. I use one of these along with a meths-fueled trangia (passed on free by a relative) and that has served me well for many years. The trangia works well for evening meals at anchor, when speed isn't important. The gas one great for boiling water quickly (except when the cartridge is low on gas). Combined, they provide two hobs for cooking a curry with rice. I doubt if I've spent the cost of one of those second hand Origos on both cooking hardware and fuel in over a decade of cruising about 7000 miles.
-
Another ‘new’ Origo 1500 without gimbals or potholders has just sold for £326 on eBay, which is well over twice the original retail price when they were still being made.