Swallow Yachts Association
Swallow Yachts Forum => General Discussion => Topic started by: Llafurio on 26 Jul 2017, 21:07
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Sorry, I did not want to, but this is serious, I just have to speak up.:
In heavy sea and wind conditions, the leeward BR20 stowage compartment can -will- flood. The considerable extra water then destabilises the boat further to leeward, and things get more hairy then. Be warned.
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Dear Llafurio,
This can happen when the boat is heeled to such a degree that water comes in the cockpit, as you say, in heavy wind or sea conditions. We have made some changes to the design to improve the drainage speed (cutting the bottom corners off the lockers) and to improve the seal around the cockpit locker top. We are actually in the process of road testing a new rubber seal from Italy which will be retro fittable onto all BR20/BRes if it proves, as I hope, to be more effective than the existing arrangement seal.
I will keep you all posted here.
Matt
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The following forum topic is worth reading because it describes this problem and the eventual solution found to work by Llafurio and others:
http://www.swallowyachtsassociation.org/smf/index.php/topic,414.msg2212.html#msg2212
My 2012 BRe had the corner cut-outs Matt described and I found this allowed sufficient free-draining such that virtually no water entered the locker even in the most extreme circumstances. In one hairy situation last year while beating in a F6, the mainsheet became jammed (a freak occurrence) and our leeward gunwale was sufficiently below the water such that water poured (literally) over the BRe's raised coaming. The channel around the locker and the corner cut-outs worked as intended and no water of any consequence ended-up in the locker, let alone enough to cause any stability issues (which would have to be a significant amount of water).
Perhaps if the locker lids didn't have the cut-outs the situation would have been different. But with them I found the drainage works fine. I believe these cut-outs have been standard for some time but locker lids can be easily modified if required.
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I prefer the bulb seals to the adhesive neoprene strips, both described in the ancient thread referred to by Jonathan. The bulbs tend to stay in place better.
I have been caught out in horrendous conditions in my BR20 a couple of times, with whole green waves shipped over the gunwales and the cockpit sole awash until cleared by the self bailers. Thanks to the locker corner cut-outs and the bulb seals, I had a cupful of water in the leeward locker on both occasions. The skipper may have been unstable but the boat wasn't. Under normal conditions (F6 and lots of spray), the lockers remain bone dry.
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FYI, it was I who first "invented" & introduced the stowage lid cut off sides and corners to the BRs, They do help against water intake in "normal" conditions, but they alone do NOT prevent the compartment flooding in really bad ones.
Then came the neoprene seals, but they are unreliable, and, worse, if they work, they disable the boat from being re-rightable from a full turtle by a singlehander. I strongly advise against seals for that reason.
And BTW, my own BR did not come with any seals, as many other BRs do not have them, and on my younger BRe the neoprene seals fitted had moved from their proper seats through adhesive smear after one season. They are obsolete now.
The fact and truth of the matter is that the stowage compartments can -and will- flood in bad conditions, and will then diminish the seaworthyness of the boat when you need that most.
This is no idle chitchat, I have made this experience twice, last time yesterday. Don't tell me anybody "This does not happen".
The warning stands. Heed it.
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I can second what Graham said, last year we got caught out in F8/9 conditions, as you'll see from the pic the boat was heeling right over due to the wind with water sheeting in over the gunwhales - the conditions were awful (I have never been so wet or full of adrenaline in my life!!) but we made it back to the harbour with no dire flooding in the lockers.
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FYI, it was I who first "invented" & introduced the stowage lid cut off sides and corners to the BRs
FYI and not that it really matters, the locker corner cut off remedy was "invented" not by you but as a cooperative effort by Simon Knight (his riveting video of the inside of his locker being flooded) and Guy Rossey.
Then came the neoprene seals, but they are unreliable, and, worse, if they work, they disable the boat from being re-rightable from a full turtle by a singlehander. I strongly advise against seals for that reason.
As I said just above your post, I prefer the bulb seals with jaws, as they definitely stay in place. Because I haven't installed the seals on the locker fore and aft horizontal rims (see photo below), they aren't hermetically sealed. If the boat turtles, the port locker quickly fills with water, as intended as part of the asymmetric capsize buoyancy system. This was my experience two years ago when I turtled at Mylor (second photo, half way to recovery). And no, I still haven't had any problem with my locker hinges because of pressure from the bulb seals.
The fact and truth of the matter is that the stowage compartments can -and will- flood in bad conditions
The fact and truth of the matter is that on my boat, they can't and won't.
On this forum, cooperative endeavour trumps dogmatism every time. You have boycotted the forum for so many years that perhaps you have forgotten this?
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I have installed the twin whale pump with cross over feeds on my transom so I can pump water out of the sump. On one of the pump inlets that rest in the sump it has one of those brass push and twist connector fitments. In the locker I keep a length of hose also terminated with one of the brass push and twist connectors that I can connect to the whale pump inlet. The hose will reach the lockers for fast, efficient, and reliable pump out in should it be required. It has on a few occasions been used to pump the ballast tanks out but that does take some effort.
Peter Cockerton
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I stand by all my statements in this thread and have witnesses and old internal correspondence to prove them.
The flooding of a leeward stowage compartment is a stealth process. It happens without you realising it because at the moment in bad conditions you are sitting high on windward and sail on for dear life, and trust your cut-off corners or seals. It only takes one bad wave and one bad gust to start it. After the first water intake, the further water intake is self-reinforcing as the heeling of the boat to lee increases more with every new wave taken in.
I now have put this danger on clear and open public record, after I had myself encountered it two times within a timespan of six years. Many others will never experience it themselves, but some will.
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Llafurio,
I am sure no-one disbelieves you but, as should happen on forums, everyone (including you) is simply sharing their experiences and others are saying that on their boats and with their sailing they are satisfied that this problem does not occur. Perhaps they are wrong and will be caught out in future or perhaps they have found solutions that you could learn from.
Thanks for the additional context - if you have experienced this twice in six years when sailing for dear life then, while this doesn't take away from the fact that you experienced this problem at the most inopportune time, it is clearly a rare issue that occurs for you in conditions when many will either not be sailing hard or not sailing at all. Sailing carries risk and we all need to understand, mitigate and accept that risk and this thread is an example of that process.
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Graham W,
do you have any specifications of the bulb seal? I cannot see it clearly on the picture and on googling i find thousands sorts and sizes. And after 2 weeks of sailing our neoprene strips that came with the BRe are totally worn.
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The company that I used is called Seals Direct and the two different bulb seals are ETS58, for the inboard (lower) edges of the locker, and ETS59 for the outboard upper edge. Both seals can be found (eventually) by scrolling through this page http://www.sealsdirect.co.uk/shopping.asp?intDepartmentId=3#23.
Here's a link to my original post http://www.swallowyachtsassociation.org/smf/index.php/topic,414.msg2212.html#msg2212
Matt says (above) that he is trialling some Italian seals which will be better than the neoprene. Unless you're concerned about straining your locker hinges (possibly a problem with earlier boats), the seals that I have used do the job effectively.
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Jonathan... Have you ever considered a career in the Diplomatic Service..?!
I've a few contacts if you need them...!
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Jonathan... Have you ever considered a career in the Diplomatic Service..?!
I've a few contacts if you need them...!
Ha, thanks Andy, appreciate that, but I'm sure they wouldn't have me!
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Llafurio,
are you talking about water entering from above as it comes over the side of the boat, or coming in round the bottom of the lid from the cockpit?
Mark.
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Llafurio,
are you talking about water entering from above as it comes over the side of the boat, or coming in round the bottom of the lid from the cockpit?
Mark.
The water gets in both ways, also from the cockpit side. Depends on how high the water sloshes inside the cockpit in the wave movement. The water intake into the cockpit is massive when a bad gust hits the boat and lays it down for one moment. With the wind under the hull the boat is pushed sideways to lee and literally scoops the water in big with the gunnel. The boat then rights again and the water floods into the cockpit itself. The self bailers cannot let out the water quickly enough so the cockpit water sloshes high in the wave action and with the next gust climbs up the inside cockpit stowage compartment side and over the lid. I would like to say that all this happened to me and my crew at the high end but still inside category C conditions.
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Thanks for that, force 6 then?
were the waves beginning to break?
any tide against wind effect?
I've seen photos of your boat, I am interested in what kind of passages you are doing in it.
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I think it is safe to say that I will not be out, intentionally, in those kinds of weather conditions. Only way would be if I got caught out. Possible, so good to hear strategies for heavy weather sailing in a BayRaider.
I do not have the locker seals on my boat, so am interested to see the solution Matt comes up with on this.
The sun usually has to be out for me, not usually a problem in Southern California. 8)
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I have read this with great interest. However, I am still not quite sure about the detail. In particular exactly what are the cut outs and where are they? Please could we have a close up photo? Also could we have a photo of the recommended seals so there is no misunderstanding about what people are referring to.
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Colin,
Here are photos of the seals, from the previous fairly comprehensive thread on wet locker misery http://www.swallowyachtsassociation.org/smf/index.php/topic,414.msg2537.html#msg2537. The cut-outs are also discussed there (see the final post from Matt) with one fairly clear photo but no close-ups.
As said in another context There is a solution long known.
I was out on Lake Bala today in an F6, which was much stronger than forecast. I shipped one solid green one over the starboard gunwale. Nothing reached the inside of the locker but I got quite wet.
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David - reading your post took me back one or two years .. when Albert Hammond was reminding us all in damp windy England 'That it never rains in southern California, but (there's always a but!) girl, don't they warn ya, It pours man, it pours!'
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So look out and get them locker seals in place .. or else!
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I have experienced the flooded locker problem. I was sailing single handed, with water ballast and the second reef in the mainsail into a F6. With this set up I felt overpowered in the 25 knot gusts and if I wasn't quick enough easing the mainsheet I took water over the gunwhale. I persisted with beating into the wind in order to reach my intended destination when I probably ought to have run back to my launch site. Earlier I had tried sailing under mizzen and jib alone but made very little progress to windward and also found the boat really didn't want to tack. With water in the lockers the boat felt less stable but stiffened considerably when heeled.
When I reached my destination, it took some time to bail out the lockers.
I didn't regard this as a locker design issue until I read this thread. I simply felt that I had been carrying too much sail for the conditions. Mizzen and jib was too little but adding the fully reefed main approximately doubled the area and was too much for me single handed. I would have liked to have been able to present a sail area somewhere between the two. The second reef in the main being a much bigger reduction than present perhaps? I have experimented sailing in a F5 with reefed main and mizzen alone but not surprisingly the boat displayed considerable weather helm. Any suggestions?
I will look again at the locker lids when I get a chance with a view to making the recommended modifications.
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Alan,
There's a thread about a reduced area battened mainsail which when reefed is quite a bit smaller than the standard mainsail - see http://www.swallowyachtsassociation.org/smf/index.php/topic,763.0.html. Had I known that the winds on Bala were going to be as strong as they were yesterday, I probably would have taken it with me. I had one reef in the standard main and was ballasted and had to be very quick on the mainsheet to avoid being overpowered. Eventually I dropped the main and like you was under just jib and mizzen. I could make progress to windward but pointed about 10° off the wind (50° apparent) compared to normal. I was still doing well over 4 knots over the ground but felt safe if a bit bored with the slow progress.
You didn't say where you were sailing. Bala is only 3 miles long with limited fetch, so wave action is much less than out at sea with a contrary tide. I still managed to ship one green wave (and showed my centreboard to onlookers) due to inattention.
If you have trouble tacking under jib and mizzen, try pulling the mizzen to windward like an aircraft rudder until on the opposite tack. It works really well.
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Graham,
I was heading West in the Western Solent against an incoming Neap tide (another reason why I should have turned around). Sailing under Jib and Mizzen I was making reasonable progress through the water but virtually nil progress over ground. This was why I hoisted the main and drove the boat harder than I wanted. It wasn't the waves that were my problem, it was that I occasionally put the gunwhale under water. It doesn't help that when fully reefed, the main represents approximately only half the sail area, so spilling wind from the main in the event of a gust doesn't offer the same degree of relief compared to a Bermudan rigged dinghy, for instance. Also, in a dinghy you can spill wind by allowing the boat to turn up into wind as it heels in response to the gust, the weather helm generally encouraging the boat to do so quite quickly. I have found the Bayraider is slower to respond in this way, and so have learned to be ready with the mainsheet in hand at all times in lively conditions.
Thanks for the tip regarding steering with the Mizzen, I picked that up from this forum more recently and you are right, it does work well.
As for the reduced area Mainsail: Again, I have already read your previous postings on this subject with interest. I have an old-ish mainsail which I had cut down to the size of the first reef and having purchased a second-hand yard, I reduced the length of the original yard to work with this modified sail. As I normally sail single handed I am finding the reduced sail area is about right for me most of the time. I only have one reef which is the original second reef (I would prefer a greater reduction).
Only having a single reef has allowed me to set up a slab reefing system which allows me to put in a reef quickly without having to fully lower the mainsail. I found it really difficult to reef in a bit of a blow with the original set up. Also, I prefer the shortened yard not clashing with the Mizzen mast when supported on the topping lift.
Alan
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Yes, you definitely need to play the mainsheet to deal with strong gusts - inattention in high winds can have consequences!
One other thought for heavy weather sailing which may have been discussed elsewhere and I should have tried yesterday - how about furling the mizzen and sailing with a reefed main and jib as an alternative to jib & mizzen? Presumably you would lose some or all of the weather helm. On the home leg downwind yesterday I furled the mizzen and was under jib only and was still touching nearly 4 knots.
My reduced mainsail doesn't use a gunter yard as it is not tall enough to need one - it only reaches the top of the mast. I hadn't thought about slab reefing for it.
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I haven't tried Main and Jib alone, I fear that may result in Lee Helm but I should give it a go. I have sailed with just the reefed Main in a F5 which was nicely balanced. The advantage was that I was able to spill wind easily during gusts with mainsheet in hand, unlike sailing under Jib and Mizzen.
Alan
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Thanks for that, force 6 then?
were the waves beginning to break?
any tide against wind effect?
I've seen photos of your boat, I am interested in what kind of passages you are doing in it.
Not even F6, but hard gusts. No serious breaking waves, no tide against wind. Only some cross seas reflected from a leeward cliff coast. I sail on the southwest coast of Ireland. We were out that day not in my BRe modified for extended voyages but in my standard GRP BR20.
BTW, my modified BRe has been retrofitted by a yard -not SwY- with a new floor in both stowage compartments at the level of the cockpit floor. There are non-return diaphragm valves fitted from stowage floors to cockpit floor so at least no water can remain caught inside the lockers even after the boat is tacked.
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I have experienced the flooded locker problem. ...
I didn't regard this as a locker design issue until I read this thread.
Well it is a design issue. By design, water can get in but not out again. And worse, once the water gets in, the boat heels even more, so even more water gets in, until the locker compartment is full, and I estimate that is about 200 ltrs. of extra water which one cannot get out again at sea in those conditions. And even worse, this process is not symmetric, i.e. it does not seem to happen in both side compartments equally, so as to balance themselves out, but the self-aggravating flooding of one side stowage locker on seems to lead to the opposite locker staying dry.
The solution cannot be seals, because the righting capapility from inversion of the boat would be negatively impacted by the lockers NOT filling during an attempted inversion roll-back. And, as we experienced, because of the water entering from the cockpit side, where the locker lids are not sealed nor would be sealable. And, I attach a photo from my boat Homer after one season, seals are unreliable anyway.
IMO a real improvement would already be to cut out the vertical cockpit wall higher, raising the treshold height for water entering from the cockpit side, and to cut the horizontal locker top at the gunnel side (where they now put the seals) much less, and in a curved fashion.
The safest solution would be to -also- put in a new floor inside the compartments at the cockpit floor level, so no water can get caught in the lower tip of the compartment below the cockpit floor level.
CR
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Interesting points 'Llafurio'.
In elevating the stowage locker floors you will be creating an additional albeit small buoyancy chamber below them. Any concerns regarding the behaviour of the boat on it's side in the event of a capsize? Also, do you have any reference to the specific type of diaphragm valves you are proposing to use?
So far my efforts have focussed on being able to reduce sail quickly and easily to match the conditions that present themselves and also being able to respond to gusts appropriately in order to avoid water coming over the gunwhale. However, I do accept that this may occasionally happen and the locker / lid design can be optimised to minimise water ingress. I did consider whether it may be possible to fit a central drain tube from the outboard drain channel which would exit just above the cockpit floor through the vertical inboard wall of the locker. My logic here was that the water when dumped over the gunwhale into that channel has to make it's way forward and aft to the downward angled drain channels to escape. As the locker is quite long, the water has some way to go so an additional central drain may help the water to escape more easily. The pipe would have to be routed so as not to bisect the storage area.
Alan
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At the risk of it appearing like Groundhog Day:
The solution cannot be seals.....because of the water entering from the cockpit side, where the locker lids are not sealed nor would be sealable.
If you fix the recommended bulb seals where I have indicated (photo from 2011 attached, again), this stops water migrating from the cockpit sole up into the lockers and from the gunwales down into the lockers. With the addition of the locker lid corner cut-outs, of course.
The solution cannot be seals, because the righting capability from inversion of the boat would be negatively impacted by the lockers NOT filling during an attempted inversion roll-back.
Lack of seals along the topmost locker rims fore and aft allows the port locker to fill following inversion. I know this, because I have inverted.
seals are unreliable anyway.
Most of us would agree that the sticky neoprene seals don't stick for long enough. I have used the same bulb seals with steel jaws for six years in rough conditions and without the problems that you describe. They may not be for anyone with weak hinge syndrome but they work on my 2010 BR20.
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Interesting points 'Llafurio'.
In elevating the stowage locker floors you will be creating an additional albeit small buoyancy chamber below them. Any concerns regarding the behaviour of the boat on it's side in the event of a capsize? Also, do you have any reference to the specific type of diaphragm valves you are proposing to use? ...
Alan,
may I suggest you ask manufacturer SwY directly. It is really their problem. They are aware of the problem since 9 years, and five years ago they said they needed to do testing re the effects of sealed lockers on the righting from inversion by a singlehander. They should be able to advise and help you reliably by now.
I am not recommending customers to sort out safety relevant design shortcomings at their own creativity and their own expense.
However, if you send me your email address through a private message on this website, I will send you what information I have so far, and the make of the suitable non-return valves. CR
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I have been reading with interest this set of problems and may have a possible solution.
'Transom Flaps' fitted low down in the locker lids.
They would be a simple cutout with mylar or plastic covering it and a v. light bungy, if required, to prevent it flapping around. This provides a simple one way valve which, depending on the size can let out as much water(or air) as required.
In the event of large water ingress into the locker it would allow fast or instant draining(depending on its size).
In the event of capsise it would also alow air to escape and a much faster asymetric filling of the 'sealer modified' locker. Hope this helps.
My experience comes from emptying a half full Merlin Rocket in a matter of seconds!!.
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Hi Jim,
thanks for the "transom flap" idea. You obviously understood the problem. I know them flaps from my 420 / 470 days. They are super against short blasts of water trying to push in from astern without much pressure, but I think their seal is too spongy so they would let through too much into the leeward locker if there is water from the cockpit pushing in for minutes on end. And any water entering will then immediately and unbailably get trapped there in that deep lowermost pocket under the cockpit sole level. So the non-return seal diaphragm must work very good and very thoroughly.
There are well sealing non-return valves on the market which can also be plugged shut when not required.
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You are right about the Mylar ones being to flimsy for this job, but they can be made of anything and much stronger, I have seen some Carbon Fibre ones!. As regards sealing properly, they can be made to seal perfectly, by application of some sealant to the boat surface adding grease or non stick to the flap and then closing it(I've done it). It would not remove all water though, if the locker base is below the cockpit sole, but it could well be enough to make a big difference in difficult circumstances and cost very little to fit.
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I am greatly enjoying sailing my Bre this year. Twice in the gusty conditions I have managed to take a green one over the lee side, and both times got a good dose of water in the lee locker. It hasn't been a danger issue, more a nuisance having to bail it out once back at the berth. Plus everything in the locker gets a good soaking. I look forward to hearing from Matt what the retrofit solution is to keep the lockers dry in the event of taking a sea.
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I agree Johnguy. I think this is not a simple issue and I'm not convinced that we have seen the full recommended solution from Matt on this Forum. (I have hunted for it). The suggested mods to the Locker Lid seem to have universal support but represent only part of the solution. Different seals are in use and experiences and views are mixed. Other solutions technical have also been offered, we could really use Swallow Yachts latest position on all of this.
Alan
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Contacted SY this morning on another matter (bit of gelcoat repair) Jamie very helpful, enquired as to whether Matt was aware of current discussion reference water ingress into lockers, Matt on holiday for a couple of weeks, Jamie will raise this with him on his return.
Peter Cockerton
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Not my problem, and this suggestion may be greeted with the forum equivalent of an embarrassed silence following a crass comment. However, here goes -
How about 'filling' the lockers with clear plastic containers (number and size to be worked out according to the sort/size of stuff which gets stowed there) with water-resistant lids? If the idea were a go-er, Matt might even be able to get some done 'bespoke', to minimise loss of locker space. Contents would be visible and kept dry, and slosh-water in the locker would be minimal - just remove containers and dry locker out as necessary after sailing. No seals or locker/locker lid re-design needed.
Biggest problem might be getting Llafurio approval.....
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Michael,
Before I installed bulb seals, I used to fill my lockers with big boxes from these people http://www.reallyusefulproducts.co.uk/uk/. I still use a few much smaller ones to keep things tidy, although the lids seem to go brittle over time. The company makes boxes in a large number of shapes, sizes and colours, at a price. However, it's a pain removing big boxes to sponge out the bottom of the locker every time it ships water, so prevention is the best strategy.
One handy helpful hint (H3): if, like me, you're foolish enough to sail in a way that risks inverting your BR, make sure that items that really must stay dry (eg automatically inflating lifejackets, spare batteries) are stowed in your starboard locker. Anything in your port locker will get soaked through when recovering from inversion.
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Michael,
I have employed a similar principle following the naval tradition of my late father. As a shipwright on HMS Glasgow he shared the duty of 'bulling the teapot', ie swilling the nearly empty rum kegs with water to extract the last dregs, known as 'bull',a much inferior drink. I promise I am not taking the proverbial.
My big brother, also Michael (not taking the Micky), would bring home plastic canisters one foot cubed (nearly put my foot in it) which had previously contained sherry, from the off licence where he worked in Grimsby.
After the canisters had been duly swilled and the contents consumed in the naval tradition of 'sucking the monkey', the containers were redeployed in an early example of recycling as six 'buoyancy bags' in my 'Gremlin' dinghy.
The moral of the story is that you may get tipsy, but you can still float.
Should I be worried as 'Craic' has no seal to the 'Swallows Nest' side compartments?
Kind regards,
Andrew
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As a member of the Turtle club (and one of those who have recovered successfully without help), I would just like to point out that if you are getting water over the side and you are not water ballasted you are perilously close to the point of no return. If you are water ballasted then its high time you shortened the sails. Having sailed predominantly with water ballast since the swimming experience I have taken very little water on board and got even less in the compartments and yes we have been out in the rough. Yes I know that the BRe I now have has more freeboard than my old BR20 but the crucial difference and in effect safety feature is the rig. The main problem with the BR20 is the Gaff rig - switch to the Bermudan and you can reef in about 30secs. Because it is easy you tend to do it rather than pressing on into worse weather with too much sail - this will probably save more water getting into your compartments than any fancy seals!
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Whilst I agree with all of that Tim, I would add the following point. Using the water ballast certainly increases the stiffness of the boat and adds the reassurance of self-righting ability. But it also results in the boat sitting lower in the water and a reduction of freeboard of around (I think) three inches. This combined with the increased inertia of the boat makes it more susceptible to waves breaking over the gunwhale in the kind of steep chop that is characteristic of the Solent (for example).
I would have expected that water to find it's way safely through the drains and into the self draining cockpit. However some finds it's way into the lockers (at least it does on my BR20) and if you are out in these conditions for some time, this can become a problem. There is a modification to the locker lids documented in this forum which is now standard on new Bayraiders and which I need carry out soon on my 2010 version. I am also awaiting further guidance on seals and possibly drains from Matt so I know what other modifications to carry out.
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An interesting debate. Tim Riley’s suggestion that we should be focusing on the rig rather than the seals is thought-provoking. Is there another ‘non-seal’ argument though – one that others have hinted at?
Lara provides a photograph of ‘Turaco’ sailing in a very strong wind. Despite the conditions (and despite the boat having a lightweight crew), the boat’s pretty flat. And doesn't flood. In contrast, elsewhere in the thread, there’s ‘you are sitting high on windward’ when water floods in. Is this a clue? Rather than seal design or some other design issue, is it down to the way the boat is sailed? Flat like a dinghy or heeled like a yacht?
I still like Tim’s argument though. On several occasions I’ve been caught out with too much of my gunter sail up.
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John,
I can't remember the last time I was called "lightweight". Well not in terms of avoirdupois anyway!
The rapid change in conditions on the afternoon of Lara's photo caught me off guard. Despite appearances and despite best intentions, we dipped our gunwales several times during the worst gusts. We had up to 37 knots apparent on the beam. I was playing the mainsheet to spill wind like our lives depended on it. We shipped huge amounts of water from spray and from whole waves into the cockpit but because we were going so fast, the self bailers in the sump got rid of it fairly quickly.
Addressing Tim's points, we were too close to the lee shore to stop and put the second reef in. With hindsight and having had lots of practice since then, we should have dropped the main and carried on under jib and mizzen. Unlike nearly everyone else, we couldn't drop all sail and rely on the outboard to get us home - we had my gutless Torqeedo on the back.
I know that I'm sounding like a cracked record but bulb seals in conjunction with the lid corner cut-outs stopped all but a cupful of water from getting into the leeward locker. Without those modifications, this would have happened several times in a few minutes: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Utx5lk57TU8.
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I'm a cautious sailor and always ready to reef, but there is no way to sail a BRe offshore in any sort of gusty conditions without sometimes getting a slop over the side. It is only a big dinghy after all. So the lockers should either be wet, ie they let in water but have drains, or dry, in which case they don't let in water. With the flat neoprene seals as supplied in my newbuild from last year the lockers are neither. They let in water and don't drain. It is clearly a design and build issue, not an operational matter. It would be nice if Matt found some seals that keep the lockers dry and let us all know so we could retrofit if we wish.
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Dear All,
I am sorry to take a while to get back to you all on this one, we have been round the houses trying to find an improved seal. I had hoped to use a D section adhesive sealing one that was similar, but with better adhesion, than the standard rubber one we fit. I will have some more news for you soon, but it looks like we will revert to something very similar to Grahams, with a bulb type seal.
The boats actually pass the European technical requirements required of them with no seal at all, which is my feeble excuse for not having acted sooner, but I would like to improve this aspect of the boat, so will be attempting to contact all BR20 and BRe owners to urge them to get the retrofit done as soon as we have fitted and tested it.
I should have more news for you soon.
Matt
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The boats actually pass the European technical requirements required of them with no seal at all....
The question remains whether the boats still pass the "European technical requirements" (i.e. the ISO standard righting test , "Option 7"- WITH the stowage compartments sealed. We last spoke about this five years ago. Was the righting from inversion with sealed compartments tested as was the righting with unsealed compartments? C.
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Thank you Matt.
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Then came the neoprene seals, but they are unreliable, and, worse, if they work, they disable the boat from being re-rightable from a full turtle by a singlehander. I strongly advise against seals for that reason.
The solution cannot be seals, because the righting capapility from inversion of the boat would be negatively impacted by the lockers NOT filling during an attempted inversion roll-back.
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Water ingress into the lockers and the instability created is unquestionably undesirable and all efforts to resolve this must be considered. I have the locker corners removed and adhesive foam positioned as recommended on the locker edges the adhesion qualities reinforced with a layer of duct tape over the top for now. I have also purchased the bulb seals as posted however the thickness of my GRP especially on the top outermost edge of the locker is thicker than the bulb seal likes and as such opens the metal jaws beyond the distance where they then grip the GRP.
GRP Boats Only
My understanding of the ACB feature gleaned from reading the BR20 manual and open to correction from more knowledgeable owners.
On inversion of the boat the water inlet (wood lined hole next to mizzen allows water to enter the port side buoyancy chamber destroying the buoyancy and the hull then sits lower in the water on the port side which assists the recovery of the boat to the upright position. Once upright the water in the port side buoyancy chamber drains into outboard well and restores the desirable buoyancy of the side chamber.
If were saying that the port locker should flood to assist the ACB feature and we have solved the undesirable water ingress into the lockers (effectively sealing the locker chamber) how is it supposed to enter the locker under the current design of the locker chamber.
Peter C
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Firstly, I have to apologise as apparently I am not a full member of the turtle club, having only done a half roll in a BR20 and managed to prevent full inversion by holding on to the rudder with all my weight which had fortunately jammed mid position by the outboard "over cocking" itself.
To reply to the issue of lower freeboard when water ballasted I firmly believe that the added stability is well worth the loss of a few inches and will continue sailing that way regardless of the chop.
Are we concentrating too much on the seals? It has previously been proven that the cut outs in the corners of the locker covers improved the situation, therefore what about reducing the gap behind the locker when shut to reduce the amount of water trying to find its way down the gutter at the back? If a strip similar to the neoprene seal was stuck in the gap it might just reduce the speed of water flow and therefore allow it to flow away without going over the top and into the locker. It would not even have to touch both surfaces and would therefore be immune to the creep when using it on the weight bearing surfaces. We are never going to make them watertight whatever seal is used but all we have to do is reduce the flow down the back.
This may also help to explain why some people find it an issue and others don't - maybe the gap behind the locker is greater on some boats?
Are other Bayraider sailors surprised when they sail on big yachts to find that they have great big cockpit lockers with bendy lids and flimsy catches that down below are essentially open to the rest of the boat? -and they are Cat C boats!
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Are other Bayraider sailors surprised when they sail on big yachts?
Yes
Are we concentrating too much on the seals?
Are you having a laugh?
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Dear All,
There are a number of ways of passing the RCD/ISO test. Option 7 of ISO 12217 that Claus/Llafurio refers to is just one and mainly encompasses the capsize recovery test. If you can pass that one (recovery from full inversion) there are few other requirements to pass. It was our initial aim when designing the boat that we pass under this option, but in practice, we took the view that in the BayRaider it was marginal, and could not always be predicted accurately. For example a user stowing heavy equipment in one side locker could severely affect its ability to be righted. There is also no way that the BayRaider Expedition could be righted from a full inversion without a crew of fit people, or outside assistance. Of course under the ISO there are many ways to assess different types of boat, and she formally passes under a different option, which mainly takes into account her large reserve of buoyancy, and her righting moment compared to wind heeling moment (ie her stiffness).
Aside from the ISO tests, the ability of the lockers to flood to aid recovery from full inversion is undoubtedly helpful, which is why we have never fitted a seal that entirely encompasses the perimeter of the hatch. In this way, as Graham has expanded at length on this forum, if the seals are good (and I accept the ones originally supplied were not) waves over the side in difficult conditions are mainly kept out of the lockers but in the event of a capsize, they can still flood.
So to answer the question, no we have not formally tested the boat with seals under option 7 (full capsize) because she is not assessed under this part of the ISO. She does fully comply with the RCD/ISO and fitting, or not fitting seals will not affect this. I accept however that unwanted water in the lockers does affect the user, and having seals that work better is something we are working on, and hope to have more news for owners soon.
Matt
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I would be more than sorry if SwY abandons testing the BR hands-on for rightability from inversion by a singlehander, as was done when the BR came out first, and was shown on Youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvNj2Mj4JZg . I always thought that the tested and proven rightability by a single crew in accordance with ISO standard was THE outstanding feature of the BR worthy to be noted and advertised. I certainly put my trust in it, though I was careful enough not to turtle my SwBs ever in a decade of hard use and racing.
Re retrofitting seals now please do not forget sealing also the vertical side of the locker adjacent the cockpit sole, because that is where the flooding comes in also, as we have experienced.
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I would be more than sorry if SwY abandons testing the BR hands-on for rightability from inversion by a singlehander
Nobody is abandoning anything and the BR20 hasn't changed since the original capsize videos, which demonstrated that they can be righted solo thanks to the asymmetric buoyancy feature. If they decided not to do the formal test under ISO's option 7 for the reasons given, that's their decision to take.
This is not the place to pursue what looks increasingly like a vendetta against the yard, dressed up as concerns about safety in extreme conditions. You did something similar in 2011 and you were asked to desist. You've already had lengthy and remarkably polite answers to all your comments and suggestions on the lockers, so you should now give it a rest.
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This is not the place to pursue what looks increasingly like a vendetta against the yard, dressed up as concerns about safety in extreme conditions. You did something similar in 2011 and you were asked to desist. You've already had lengthy and remarkably polite answers to all your comments and suggestions on the lockers, so you should now give it a rest.
Dear Graham,
you are trying to be a reliable apologist for the yard, but I doubt you have all the facts of my long connection with the yard and with the BRs. Talk to me like this again, and I'll spill some.
You are right, I had been privately asked to desist in 2011, because I was "hurting sales". And I did desist, for 6 years. All that my keeping quiet resulted in was some neoprene seals that do not work. I have been caught again in this design problem again, out at sea, and I find it's time for the yard to come up finally with a reliable and safe solution. And I'll be quiet then. C.
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Writing as one of the forum's administrators and moderators, I'm sorry to say that I don't believe the tone of these latest comments is appropriate or constructive. One of the forum's purposes is to share all our experiences - positive and negative - with Swallow's boats and where there are problems or challenges we discuss potential solutions in a positive fashion. This topic has degenerated to a point where users' experiences and solutions are being ignored and personal comments and apparent threats are being made. Let's not go further down this path; the forum's moderators have never had to moderate forum posts other than those that were spam and we don't want to start now.
If anyone has anything further to say on this topic then please contribute in the spirit of this forum. But, given the lengthy discussion on this topic and the potential solutions offered, I suggest that further posts should be limited to those that add to our knowledge of this problem or it's resolution.
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... I suggest that further posts should be limited to those that add to our knowledge of this problem or it's resolution.
The problem leading to the flooding of the side lockers is water pooling on the seats at the lee gunwhale coaming when the boat is sailing well heeled. And when cockpit water creeps up the lee cockpit coaming when the boat is knocked by a severe gust. The criterion is that the inward sloping angle of the drain channels goes beyond horizontal so that the water flow in those channels is reversed to outwards.
The consequences are that the boat looses stiffness, which in turn causes further heeling and so even more water intake, until the lee locker is completely flooded with approx. 0.2 tons of water. From which point the boat struggles to make good to windward due to the massive heel. The water inside the locker then is trapped in the locker, will not drain significantly when the boat changes tack, and would need to be pumped out manually. Which is difficult in the wild conditions in which this heeling typically occurs.
There are several reasons why sealing the lockers with rubber seals is not a reliable and not a safe option, for older boats it is not even possible.: Rubber seals are not maintenance-free, as the adhesive used will age with the conditions, and the rubber will deform its shape over time. Then such seals will require downward pressure to seal evenly a large area as around the locker opening. On older boats the seat of the screws holding the lid hinges does not take such forces. The screws loose grip.
And, for the re-righting of the boat from inversion by singlehander or small crew, the floodability of the
lockers is integral part of the righting process.
I will therefore not seal my lockers. I will instead close in the vertical and horizontal opening of the lockers as sketched red in the attached photo. This closing off will result in increasing significantly the heeling angle from which pooled water can downflood into the lockers. In addition I have already fitted a diaphragm non-return valve -marked round- which will limit the maximum water amount possibly trapped in the locker, and which will vent air trapped in the locker if the boat should be on its back requiring to be righted. CR
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One could also imagine a plastic sheet covering completely the open locker, the flaps covering the edges and fixed by a rubber line or push buttons. This would limit water intake but not air outlet.
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Catchando Bay, BR#48
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Hello All,
I have asked Jonathan Stuart to post a document in the maintenance and modification section of the library, which details our preferred solution to the locker issue. We have located a type of D seal that flattens easily and so should not put existing hinges on older boats under any significant stress. It is self adhesive but a 3M product which sticks considerably better than the old type (also down to its different section).
I do take into consideration Claus' comments and ideas, and certainly his solution is also a very workable one, but I believe seals as described and fitted in the document will achieve almost the same thing without restricting locker access. It is also a much easier thing to retrofit, a factor in the likelihood of it getting done.
We will be trying to contact all BayRaider and Expedition GRP customers over the next week to advertise these changes, and urge retrofitting of them. We have asked for a small charge to cover some of the costs and postage.
Please contact us directly (admin@) to order yours as soon as possible.
Best wishes
Matt
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Having had my fair amount of water in the cockpit (I might add, sailing in conditions not forecast and on my own that I would rather have avoided, F7 Gusting 8 in the Solent en-route to Lymington) it is great news that the kit has been sorted and I have ordered mine today. The only reason I did actually get some water in the Port locker was due to the fuel intake cover for the petrol tank in the locker being open to water sloshing around in the cockpit (have sorted this now and tested with no detriment to the fuel pipe by just filling the space around the fuel pipe with some foam pipe insulation)
Whilst I don't intend to go out in such conditions on purpose :-), I will report back once fitted and also should I get caught out again.
Thanks Matt and team for getting the solution sorted now
Colin - BRE031 Hardytoo
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Here is the direct link to the document Matt mentioned:
http://www.swallowyachtsassociation.org/?p=1617
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Thank you for that Matt. Do you also recommend the removal of the locker lid corners as suggested by others earlier? If so, how much do you need to take off. It seems a rather drastic modification, so I shall not do anything until I have your answer!
Charles Scott-Knox-Gore.
BR 20 no. 75 - Augusta Thomasina
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Charles,
Yes, cutting away the corners of the lockers is very important in shedding the water quickly. It is not quite the same issue as that to which Claus was referring, which is preventing water getting in when heeled for long periods. But when leveled, it makes a big difference to the speed with which the locker gutters drain.
Below are three photos which should help.
The best tool to use is a jig saw, with several new metal blades at the ready, as it will blunt them.
Once cut you can sand, and if you wish, paint the cut edge. Epoxy, polyester flow coat, or a decent paint can be used, but given they should not be permanently wet, there is no need other than aesthetic to do this.
Best wishes,
Matt
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Thank you Matt, I shall get on with it. Regards, Charles.